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Another look at Grace
Dave in Tenn:
I don't claim that these are deep thoughts, I just claim that they are my thoughts and understanding after absorbing much of what Ray has exposed. I post it with the caveat that I am much more desirous to be teachable than to to teach.
The first real inkling came from the "How Hard is it to get saved" audio. The second 'key' came here on the forum when a member quoted an email that I had read several times already but had not seen the real meat.
I used to have a notion that 'grace' was some spiritual substance, like Holy Mustard, that God smeared on people's 'souls', and that this Grace-thing was what saved them. Many of you can relate, I'm sure, to the constant quest for this 'thing', this 'holy substance' to both prompt and sustain a Godly life. This hunt led me (and leads many) to all manner of religious exercise to recapture the experience or the feeling that this Mustard gave me. It also led me (and leads many) into frustration and despair when this grace-thing expires or fails to sustain a walk. One with an understanding of 'grace' as a thing can even despair of God when he comes to identify the gift with the giver.
When I saw for the first time that Grace is the Divine influence on my life, a lot of things became clear. Confusion about how one lives with the knowledge that God's will and sovereignty is over our own wills evaporates when one comes to understand what Grace actually is. Since Grace is the Divine influence, I can see the Grace (Divine influence) in both human and my own personal history. Both are riddled with sin and rebellion, yet His Divine influence continued and he has brought me to to this point by this Grace.
Understanding Grace also gives keys to understanding just how God will bring all of humanity to His family and have all manking conformed to the image of His Son. It's not some 'thing' that God applies, it is God Himself influencing each and every one of His creatures, including the blind, the rebellious, the whore-monger, and the religious.
And this new notion of what Grace is also helps me understand the workings of the Potter on the particular lump of clay which is me. Grace never fails, nor does it expire. It doesn't have to be smeared on or in me in some hyper-spiritual manner, because it exists from the creation of the Universe, and I and all of us are here because of it.
The last I'll mention is the Divine influence in Producing the fruits of the Spirit (and in opposing the works of the flesh).
Gal 5:22 And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;
Is there one of those which is not practical? Do we have to 'work those up' through religion or 'spirituality'? God is Spirit and He lives in us in Spirit, yet the results of His life and influence in us are imminently practical. Even the oft-discussed Gifts of the Spirit (properly understood) are practical.
Maybe that doesn't strike you like it does me, but it frees me up from bondage to feelings, to religion, and to fleeting 'spirituality'.
Anyway, GRACE (God's Influence) and peace to you.
Dave
mharrell08:
Wonderful message Dave...thank you for sharing with us as these message are truly edifying indeed. :)
Marques
Kat:
Hi Dave,
You put that very well. Ray had a Bible study 'Saved By Grace Through Faith,' it has a lot about grace - divine influence on the heart and I thought I would add an excerpt from it to what you have said.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html ------
1 Cor 15: 10 “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace (divine influence on the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all (labored): yet not I (labored), but the grace of God (labored) which was with me (labored).”
There it is, the grace of God….labors.
In the Lake of Fire series I showed that grace is a verb. We learn that when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord, 1 Cor 11: 32. Chastening defines how God judges us. Now we are about to learn something very profound here, if we can get it.
Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men,
v. 12 Teaching us….”
What is doing the teaching? Grace is doing the teaching. It’s laboring - it’s teachings - it’s the divine influence of God on our heart, it‘s teaching us. So it’s (verse 12), “TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (eon - age);”
So when it says God judges us by chastening us in 1 Cor. 11: 32, the word chasten there is the Greek word ‘paideuō.‘ Then when God says He graces us, by ‘teaching us’ in Titus 2:12, the word teaching is the same word paideuo and it means - to labor, to work, to chasten, to punish, to teach, to educate. There is like a dozen different words that this means, this ‘teaching.’ That’s what it does, it actually does something. And the same way what it does for us, it will eventually do for the world.
---------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marlene:
Dave great post. Kat thanks for your post. As, my confusion of worrying about those lost was helped by Joe and Rodgers post. I did not see that and they showed it to me. Yes, I had an idol of my heart worrying over others in the Second resurrection. That last statement on Kats post that says all will be taught the same way as we are being. Yes, having our spirit changed can be painfull! All will be fine and my worrying was a silly waste of time. I just need to learn to let go and let God. I am not into the teaching, but I do want to learn.
In His Love,
Marlene
Dave in Tenn:
A, Scripture speaks to everybody where they are if they have eyes to see. A testimony, like what I've given here, is an 'amen' to that but may not speak (nor does it need to) to everybody for many reasons--we're well past that, it doesn't apply to our situation, it doesn't touch on what God is dealing with us on at the moment.
Given that, I don't think you've chopped up what I've shared.
My main point is the taking back of the meaning of scriptural words from religion, whether we've followed it or made up our own. For me (and any others) who have held a "Mustard" view of Grace as some 'thing' seperate from the Person of God, the Sovereignty of God, and the ultimate plan of God it's but one key to gaining a fuller understanding of all that, to not let our eyes glance over the Word Grace or our mouths say it without considering what it means. For me, it tied what might otherwise be seperate 'doctrinal points' into a more unified whole.
Yes, Grace/Influence/Work has everything to do with so called 'free-will', or the sovereignty of God over own our wills. You and I, yesterday, today and tomorrow, are the products of God's Grace/Influence/Work. Since God has a sovereign plan, all mankind were, are, and will be the products of His Grace/Influence/Work.
Of course we 'are what we are'. We couldn't be anything else. But it "doth not yet appear what we shall be..." except that "we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is." That's why we're all here--not at BT forum, but breathing air in the first place--to become the sons and daughters of God.
In applying truth to our own lives, I don't know of any other conculsion to come to except "It truly is by him and him alone? In other words, no matter how hard I may try without his supernatural guidance those fruits will not occur until it’s time, his timing?" Given the natural state of man and his carnal mind to be at enmity with God, there's no possibility for the fruit of the Spirit to be produced except by his Grace/Influence/work.
I mean, come on...Love that matches 1Cor. 13 and extends to our enemies? Joy that includes the joy of falling into various tribulations? Peace in a world intent on filling us with fear and wanting us to choose sides in conflict? Kindness even to those who persecute and despitefully use us? Goodness that isn't tainted by self-righteousness? Faith when faith itself is a gift of God? Meekness? And Long-suffering? How will we even know we have 'long-suffering' until after we have suffered long? Indeed, all that fruit has to be tested.
No, I think the fruit is more the result of our submission to God/Dying to self than a crop we are to labor to grow.
Through religion (no matter what form it takes) and our own (usually emotion-based) 'spirituality' the best we can muster are pale imitations that wither eventually.
Well, I said I didn't want to teach, and I don't...so I'll stop. I hope something fans the spark or at least leads to more discussion.
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