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Another look at Grace
Kat:
Hi Dave,
I think your comments have provided some good sparks to continue this discussion.
Amrhrasach, here are more excerpts from the transcript that I think will add to what Dave is saying.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html -----
So then we read Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I….” (1 Cor 15:10)
“Yet not I” what? He said I labored, you know what that means, work. I’ve ‘worked’ harder than all of them, yet it wasn’t I that works, right. Notice it wasn’t I that was doing the work, but the grace of God which was with me. The grace of God, what? These things are all understood, notice it, I am what I am by His divine influence upon my heart, which He bestowed upon me and it was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all labored: yet not I labored, but the grace of God labored. That’s what it’s saying, can you see that? So what is the grace of God doing in Paul’s heart? It LABORS, it works.
It’s not some ‘thing’ like, ‘well I have the grace of God, that save me.’ They take that word and just tack it on the wall... ‘grace’ there it is, I got it. God said I got to have it and there it is ‘grace.’ It can’t be in a book, it can’t be on the wall, it’s got to be IN YOUR HEART. What does it do there? IT LABORS - IT WORKS.
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Grace is a gift, but it’s got to be USED. Listen when something influences something, that means it does something. If you are inspired about something, you either think or write or do something, that’s the proof of the inspiration. So if something influences you it makes you think, say, do, work or something, are there is no influence. We just read that faith is divine influence upon the heart and that grace teaches us, the same that judging chastens us. It’s the same Greek word. It’s interesting it says in Eph. 2:8, “for we are saved by grace” Well that’s great, that’s wonderful (period). No, no period... comma, “THROUGH FAITH.” Well shucks, we’re saved by grace through faith, okay. Well what does that mean? ‘Through’ is a channel.
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That’s the way grace and faith is. Grace is this influence, but faith is the channel and a channel always does something, it channels something - shows motion - shows a destination. So there’s a destination to being divinely influence by God on your heart. That’s the grace and that’s free, it’s a gift. But it doesn’t mean there is nothing to be done.
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In Luke 6: 46 Christ says, “Why call you Me Lord, Lord.” Listen, that’s faith. If you call Him Lord, it means you believe He’s Lord, right, that’s faith. So He says, why do you pretend to have faith in Me, by calling Me Lord, but you don’t do what I say? See it’s a false faith, “you do not do what I say.” It is a contradiction to say, you have faith and you don’t do anything. Notice the rest of this verse in Ephesians.
Eph 2:8 for by grace (a gratuitous gift - divine influence upon the heart) are you saved through faith (believing and doing God‘s will); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
v. 9 not of (our) works, less any man should boast (you boast when you do your own works).
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship (His achievement - His works), created in Christ Jesus unto good works...
Do you get that? Where it says “not of works” ...but “for good works.” Wait a minute is that a contradiction? No, “not of (our) works” but “for (His) good works.” There are works, they’re just not ours, but we are of His workmanship. Workmanship has the word ‘work.’ The Concordant translates it ‘achievement.’ When you want to achieve something it takes work. Who’s doing the work here? God is doing the work. What is that work? Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things.
Eph 2:10 “…created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them.”
So there are works.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Akira329:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 25, 2008, 09:01:07 PM ---
I mean, come on...Love that matches 1Cor. 13 and extends to our enemies? Joy that includes the joy of falling into various tribulations? Peace in a world intent on filling us with fear and wanting us to choose sides in conflict? Kindness even to those who persecute and despitefully use us? Goodness that isn't tainted by self-righteousness? Faith when faith itself is a gift of God? Meekness? And Long-suffering? How will we even know we have 'long-suffering' until after we have suffered long? Indeed, all that fruit has to be tested.
--- End quote ---
Dave I like this portion of your statements.
This all has me considering a statement Marques once said to me while in frusrtation over a friend not being able to understand the truth,
But by the Grace of God.
Sometimes we think we're doing all the work, no peace in our hearts at all. Just angry at the state of all things.
Must realize that its God's grace that labors in me not I.
His work, not my own and if I think its my work, the fruit thereof will show itself.
Its quite ugly and nasty
Dave this has gotten me to think about a lot things today, thanks for sharing I apprciate it! :)
Antaiwan
hillsbororiver:
Hi Dave,
This is an interesting and profound topic as so many lose their way on this journey when the "cares of this world" the thorns along the path rise up and prick them, I think this is why so many churches attempt to replicate this "feel good" emotion through music, entertainment along with forced smiles and false displays of brotherly love. I don't mean to say everyone in the church is this way, no doubt there are more than a few who are sincere and believe what they hear (from the pulpit) and do is the Word and will of God.
The parable about the sower I believe also speaks of this experience, if we are depending on humanistic warm and fuzzy good feelings all the time we will certainly become disappointed (who hasn't been there?) perhaps even losing their faith along the way. You know if we are never challenged we are also in danger of becoming complacent, luke warm because there is nothing to strive for, we have arrived! We are rich and in need of nothing even though in His eyes we are blind, poor and naked.
Back to the parable;
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word and he becometh unfruitful.
In a roundabout way this was what I attempted to illustrate in the "Peaceful Oasis" thread, the title was actually facetious as there is no such thing as a consistantly peaceful oasis here on earth and there never has been. We see all through scripture the good being disrupted by evil influence, this is our journey and this is why we must always seek His Spirit and guidance it isn't as though trouble might appear it is a fact that it will! How we deal with it is the important thing.
Thank you Dave and everyone who contributed here!
Peace,
Joe
firefly77:
--- Quote ---I used to have a notion that 'grace' was some spiritual substance, like Holy Mustard, that God smeared on people's 'souls', and that this Grace-thing was what saved them. Many of you can relate, I'm sure, to the constant quest for this 'thing', this 'holy substance' to both prompt and sustain a Godly life. This hunt led me (and leads many) to all manner of religious exercise to recapture the experience or the feeling that this Mustard gave me. It also led me (and leads many) into frustration and despair when this grace-thing expires or fails to sustain a walk. One with an understanding of 'grace' as a thing can even despair of God when he comes to identify the gift with the giver.
--- End quote ---
Dave and all who have contributed to this thread...
This thread is so true and profound. I can very much relate to getting frustrated with my inability to work up the fruits of the spirit often to the point of despairing and wanting to give up while at other times I seemed to "have" it together. The roller coaster experience left me feeling isolated from other believers who "apparently" did not have the struggle I experienced. For many years I did all the right things ("fleshly works"), but was unable to feel spiritual or even close to God. Now, as I look back, it was God's grace working in me to start searching for the truth, which eventually brought me to BT. If you finally grasp this "Grace" truth and its implication, it is like being released from prison.
Grace and Peace to all,
Angie
Ninny:
I was just reading in 1Timothy Ch. 1 that "grace..was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus...Jesus came into the world to save sinners...for this cause I obtained mercy..." So it was an example to all that would follow. God's grace, full of faith and love is what saves us. What about the thing that everyone always says: I am saved by grace through faith?
It was the GRACE that was full of faith and love! Ha! It wasn't our faith in Jesus! It was God's grace (His influence) that had the faith in it!! :D :D
Now that IS freedom! :D :D
Wow! Never thought of that in this way before, thanks!
Kathy :-*
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