how do you respond?

[leeney]

I went to an acquaintance's house for lunch yesterday.  I was expecting to spend the afternoon only with her, but her husband was there.  He stayed right with us the entire day, including himself in all of our conversations.  They knew I was a 'religious' person, but I knew they would never agree with my thinking so I stayed very vague if we went that direction in our talk.  At one point he brought up the fact that he had a gay son, and talked as though this was ok with God--- it was the people who had it all wrong.  He had grown up Baptist; once he found out about his son, he left that denomination and went to the Episcopal church, who accept gays.  So I'm wondering, did he think homosexuality was wrong--until his son 'came out'?  And that if this hits him personally, it's ok?  I just don't get it.

 Also, I remained quiet for a long time while he talked, and he mistook that to mean I agreed with him.  I did not want him thinking that so I let it be known that this was wrong.  Then he really jumped on me, politely, but aggressively.  He asked, where in the Bible does it say homosexuality is a sin?  I told him I had never read that it was a sin---ONLY that it was an abomination in God's eyes, and we are told by Paul to stay away from it.  So being an abomination is enough for me to know God does not approve of it. Boy, he really came on me then.  But nothing he said made any sense, plus, I was in his home, eating at his table, and I did not want to get into any arguments with him, or worse.  It was a very unpleasant situation.  I didn't say anything else after that.  I felt there was nothing I could do but disagree, and it would have just made things worse.  Being in his home made me feel like I should be more respectful; he was trying very hard to love and accept his son---it seemed to me it was himself he was trying to convince, not so much me.  
 
 Anyway, now I'm concerned as to whether I should continue this friendship with his wife.  I really don't think it could go anywhere, now that this has all been brought out in the open.

 What do you all think?
leeney

[knuckle]

Hi leeney--------

       you wrote--So I'm wondering, did he think homosexuality was wrong--until his son 'came out'?

         The fellow still sees it as being wrong that is why he is trying so hard to justify it.Love is a funny thing in families.Siblings will fight like cats and dogs but let some one outside the family critisize it and watch the tribe go to war as a whole.Parents often see the choices there children make as personal victories or failures.We can teach our kids values but we can not think or act for them.This man you visited is probably feeling alot of guilt right now.He thinks he let his kid down.He will try anything he can to rid himself of these feelings.Not until he comes to terms with the fact that a. his son is gay and b.he loves im inspite of it will he get rid of this guilt.

         As for the friendship with the mother---you did an excellent job explaining your views to the forum have you tried explaining it to her?Invite her to lunch (a nuetral place,no husband)and talk to her.Show her some love without compromising your beliefs,let her get some of her grief off her chest--this thing is probably hitting her hard too and she may need a friend now.

[leeney]

Hi Knuckle,  thanks for your resonse.

        Well, she is his second wife; the son does not belong to her (don't know what happened to his mom, no one spoke of her).  So I don't think she's as deeply involved as her husband.  She never spoke during this whole ordeal, but I could see she was obviously uncomfortable.  

 When I got home I made up a pretty thankyou card and got it in the mail right away.  I thought I would give it a week and see if she attempts to communicate with me--she had been posting me almost daily, before this.

 I have a cousin who is gay and I have known people in the past who were.  They had become friends with me before I found out.  Everyone of them chose to stop the friendship afterward.  I tried very hard not to treat them differently, but at the same time, they knew I did not approve of their behavior.  It was their decision to end the friendship.

 But I have kids now, and I do not want them around this.  So I am presently trying to think and pray on what to do.  I will consider your suggestion.

 leeney

[Harryfeat]

hello leeney.  

Despite the fact that the word "abomination" is used in the bible, if you actually used that word in your conversation with the father, I can understand the defensive posture.

If the father truly believed it was wrong, then he is still coming to grips with the situation and trying to accept it.

You ask if you should continue to be friends with someone who has a son that you believe is committing what you believe is a sin.  Your ostensible reason for this is that you do not wish to expose your children or, "have them around this".  

You will probably have to lock your children away or move out to a isolated place where there is no access to newspapers, tv, radio or the internet or other children.  Like it or not, homosexuality, drunkenness, prostitution, lying cheating, stealing, adultery, cruelty, etc. is a part of the fabric of our society.  

Your best and only real way deal with any of these issues is by teaching your children and being a good example.  What will you do if one of your children ends up being gay despite all your precautions?  

I suggest your try to deal with it yourself and not run away because there is no where to go. There is certainly no need to purposely expose your children to drunken sots, but you should be prepared to deal with it when they do.

Do you believe that it is God's will that there be gay people in this world? Who would choose to be gay on their own?  If you believe that they are fulfilling God's will just as adulterers are then it only makes sense that we deal with compassion even if we don't understand it.  Imagine how you would feel if one of your children "came out" and then all of your friends just decided that you weren't worth having as a friend because of it.

I am friends with a gay couple.  They are kind and genereous men who set a good example to adults and children alike.  Most people don't even know they are gay because they keep their affections private.  I have no trouble having my child associate with them.  

I don't really understand homosexuality and from those I have talked to they would rather be heterosexual.  They all said that it was not a choice. They didn't wake up one day and say should I be gay or straight? I think I'll choose gay just because I like the challenge.

There is plenty of scripture supporting the doctrine of Christ.  Dealing with homosexuals, even just on a mental level, may be one of  our biggest challenges in following His example.


feat

[Chuck Norris]

ok, im kind of new at this, but harry, from what i read, you were skirting around the question of which this thread is based.

Is homosexuality against the bible?

Now i agree that in the use of the word abomination, the husband was probably offended, but he apparently is still trying to accept his sons "coming out" and probably was trying to convince himself.

Now you can be gay and be the nicest person in the world, but i believe that you will not go to heaven when you die, unless you change your ways and repent.

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. That is detestable' (Leviticus 18:22)

[Harryfeat]

ok, im kind of new at this, but harry, from what i read, you were skirting around the question of which this thread is based.

Is homosexuality against the bible?

Now i agree that in the use of the word abomination, the husband was probably offended, but he apparently is still trying to accept his sons "coming out" and probably was trying to convince himself.

Now you can be gay and be the nicest person in the world, but i believe that you will not go to heaven when you die, unless you change your ways and repent.

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. That is detestable' (Leviticus 18:22)

howdy chuck,  

welcome to the forum.

You might find the following thread interesting:
   
Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"  

... That thread deals with your question at least tangentially.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood the question.  I didn't think that the question was even about the wrongness but how to deal with it socially.

There seemed to be no question about homosexuality being considered wrong by leeney.  I thought her question was rather should she associate with the parents of the gay child and additionally she is concerned about exposing her children to gay people.

I'll check back to see where this goes.  If I got it wrong I'll respond accordingly.

feat

[Chuck Norris]

Ok harry, i see what you mean, and what leeny meant by saying she is scared of letting her kids see this, but she isnt scared of letting them be exposed to this i believe, but she is scared that they will see God's rules being abused and broken. This is what she is afraid of.

I believe this thread is asking if homosexuality is against the bible, because this issue was brought up because 1) the son was gay, and 2) the people in the discussion were christians

Do remember that the story of sodom and gomorrah, when the sodomites said, "Before they could lie down, the men of the city, surrounded the house. They kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: 'Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them."

After which, of course, God completely destroyed the city.
Because of this part of the bible, I believe that God isnt much of a fan of homosexuals.

[Harryfeat]

Ok harry, i see what you mean, and what leeny meant by saying she is scared of letting her kids see this, but she isnt scared of letting them be exposed to this i believe, but she is scared that they will see God's rules being abused and broken. This is what she is afraid of.

You might be right about that Chuck. I wasn't exactly sure if that is exactly what leeney meant either and  that's why I expanded my discussion to other things that they might be exposed to as well.

I believe this thread is asking if homosexuality is against the bible, because this issue was brought up because 1) the son was gay, and 2) the people in the discussion were christians

Do remember that the story of sodom and gomorrah, when the sodomites said, "Before they could lie down, the men of the city, surrounded the house. They kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: 'Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them."

After which, of course, God completely destroyed the city.
Because of this part of the bible, I believe that God isnt much of a fan of homosexuals.

There are a lot of people that take a similar view of of sodom and gomorrah. However, it seems there is probably more to it than that.  
Here is part of a discussion I found on the internet courtesy of someone named Robert Kaiser.:
Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabitents were nasty, depraved, and uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, among others, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and to outsiders.

Sounds like those people were pretty much bottom of the barrel.

I don't want to highjack leeney's thread though so maybe you can start another thread with your topic.


hope that was helpful

feat

[chrissiela]

Do remember that the story of sodom and gomorrah, when the sodomites said, "Before they could lie down, the men of the city, surrounded the house. They kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: 'Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them."

I don't know that this is a proper or correct translation.... they wanted them to come out so that they could 'know' (yâda‛) them:

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.[/list:u]

They did not know who these men were. It does not say that they wanted to have "intercourse" with them; this seems to have been inferred by readers/translators, due to what the sins of Sodom are percieved to have been (and the fact that Lot offered his daughters to the men instead).

Blessings,
Chrissie

[Lightseeker]

Didn't know I doubled

[Lightseeker]

MAT 11:19  The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. Sinners...homosexuals?

People don't care 'how right 'you are...until they know 'how right' you are.  Before you have the right to speak into some people you must invest in them.  Only a dumb farmer sows seed on hard ground.  The same goes for hard hearts.

Harryfeat,

Good thoughts and council.  Your username reminds me of a volleyball team my homegroup put together 20 years ago, to play in the city league.  We were trying to come up with a name and one of the guys said we're all just a bunch of heretics anyway so let's just call ourselves the 'Hairy ticks'.  We got lots of wierd looks but no questions.   :?   I'm not trying to put your name down at all but I'm smiling just remembering...thanks.

Chrissella

I don't know that this is a proper or correct translation.... they wanted them to come out so that they could 'know' (yâda‛) them:

Thanks for sharing that nugget.  I was one who was still influence by that old "inference" or mis"translation".  But I am familiar with that Heb. word of yada.  Stumbled on it one day and the lights went on from a Jerry Seinfield episode where they were talking and "yada yada yada".  Or in other words "you know, you know".

Thanks guys....good nite.

[theyachtman]

We all probably have a homosexual person in our families or circle of friends.  To keep the conversations civil, and yes there will be conversations, we need to remember plank n mote admonition . . . Is their sin any worse (or better) than the sins I commit daily - Jesus did say "If we so much as look . . . "