Freewill ?? Angels

[Ricco]

I believe that we do not have freewill but am somewhat confused about these two verses which must be spiritual matches. Now my confusion is this, what would cause these angels to not keep there first estate?
Why mention that they left their own habitation, does this not mean that it was by their choice? I know what you are thinking that freewill has nothing to do with choices, but it just sounds as if it does.
I know that we will judge the angels.
Does this not give credit to those who claim that satan fell out of heaven by his choice meaning that he was once holy such as these angels? Isnt this what is being shown here, that these angels were once holy but changed.
How could they leave their own habitation. Is this simply referring to demons or is there something here that can disprove.
How can these angels be cast into hell, can they also die?


2Pe 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

ANy assistance would be greatly appreciated
God bless you all
A brother in Christ

[mharrell08]

Excerpts from a few of Ray's email replies:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8808.0.html
Dear Mike:  In Scripture, angels, messengers, and ministers are used interchangeably.

    Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels [#32] spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    Greek: #32, aggelos, From aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a PASTOR: - angel, messenger. (Strong's Concordance).

    Now then, notice what Paul says concerning Satan and his "ministers"--

    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS also be transformed as the MINISTERS of righteousness; whose end [eonian/gehenna/hell/lake of fire JUDGMENT] shall be according to their works.

    It is the false ministers (the "ministers of righteousness") of Mystery Babylon--The CHURCH, who are to be judged in this "eonian" fire along with their many millions of followers.  See my last Installment:  "The Lake of Fire and the Second Death."

    God be with you,

    Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6926.0.html
Dear Charles:  You are failing to understand just WHO Satans angels [messengers] are. The false teachers and pastors of Mystery Babylon the Great, the Great Church, ARE THE MESSENGERS OF SATAN!  And it was for THEM that this eonian/lake of fire/second death was prepared.
God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6809.0.html
Dear Terry:  Satan and angels are intelligent and sentient beings just as human are. We all, humans, angels, and Satan will be held accountable for ALL OUR WORKS. It matters not that we were incapable of living righteous lives from birth or creation. We all have "wills," and we all sin WILLINGLY from our hearts, and for this we need to be judged. All Israel was "CURSED" by God for their disobedience, albeit, it was not possible for them to do otherwise.
God be with you,
Ray


If the church teaches it, it is false 100% of the time. A few notes from your questions:

1. Where in these 2 scriptures does it state Satan fell out of heaven?

2. Or that Satan was holy?

3. Were does it say that these 'angels' were holy?

4. Where in these 2 scriptures does it say 'demons'? I thought this was about angels...

5. No one is ever cast into 'hell'...hell is a Latin word not originally found in the NT Greek manuscripts. Christ never said the word 'Hell'...

I am only trying to show you these false assumptions you make from 2 simple scriptures. Not trying to be a prick or anything, but that's how I learned from Ray's teachings...first Ray points out the heretical, contradictory church teachings and then he teaches on spiritual truths. If you believe these assumptions or give them any credence in your heart, it won't matter what spiritual truths a member gives you. You must first turn away from these Babylonian teachings and see them for the heresies they are.

I would suggest reading through the LOF series as well as searching through Ray's email replies. There is a wealth of information in there as well. This, I believe, would be of the 'greatest assistance'. 


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Ricco]

Thank you so much for your input.
God bless

[Kat]

Hi Ricco,

Now my confusion is this, what would cause these angels to not keep there first estate?
Why mention that they left their own habitation, does this not mean that it was by their choice? I know what you are thinking that freewill has nothing to do with choices, but it just sounds as if it does.

I understand your confusion, but think about angels as beings and they must have some degree of intellect.  But their will is no more free than humans is.  So put all the reasoning behind humans not having a free will towards angels.  Here is a section of the BT article no. 16-E.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ------------------

On one occasion the King James erroneously renders the word tartarus, as hell. Tartarus means "abyss--a place of restraint," (also called "the deepest abyss of the Greek hades"). The word tartarus can be traced to the underworld of the pagan Egyptians. Tartarus is an Egyptian word, not Greek. And this one-time use in the King James clearly has reference to angels being held in restraint until their (not our) judgment. Humans are never connected with tartarus, only angels, so I will not spend much time on it in this Installment.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus--abyss], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Pet 2:4).

And this place of restraint ("chains of darkness") is only until we (I Cor. 6:3) judge the angels ("judgment"), not for eternity.
----------------------------------------------------

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat