Scriptures Disproving Free Will

[Samson]

Dear Forum,

                  I thought it would be beneficial to review and mention Scriptures that
                  disprove we have "Free Will". I have a printed copy of all four parts(A,B,C,D)
                  of Ray's Free Will Series and will quote directly from that, indicating the part,
                  page number and paragraph for all to benefit. Please feel free to add your
                  comments and Scriptural selections from Rays material to enhance this Topic.
                  I will use the New King James Version for my Scriptural Selections.


                                       GOD CAUSES LAWS(Part 15, page 22,paragraph 3,Free Will, A)


                  Ephesians. 1:11 " In him also we have obtained an inheritance, being
                                  predestined according to the purpose(GK-Boulema) of him who works
                                  all things according to the counsel of his will, "

                                  We are predestined according to Gods purpose and Will, not by any
                                  so called Free Will, God is the cause.


                                  The Scriptural Process of Conversion(Part 15B, page 6, paragraph 4)

                                  Phillipians. 2:13 " For it is God who works in you both to will and to do
                                  his good pleasure."

                                  This is Scriptural proof that God causes men to do what he
                                  wants.

                                   
                                  They Knew Not That Is Of The Lord.(Part 15B, page 29,30, paragraph 3)


                                   Isaiah. 46:9-11 " Remember the former things of old, For I am
                                   God, and there is no other, I am God and there is none like me. Declaring
                                   the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet
                                   done, saying My counsel shall stand, And I will do all my pleasure, calling
                                   a bird of prey from the east, The man executes My councel from a far
                                   country. Indeed I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass. I have
                                   purposed it, I will also do it."

                                   God has purposed it, He has spoken it and it will come to pass
                                   and he will do it. No supposed Free Will can change Gods purpose, Will
                                   and pleasure.

                                   Looking forward to your comments, additional Scriptures from
                                   Ray's Myth of Free Will Series. This should prove as a good review of this
                                   most important Truth and as a good exercise towards retaining Ray's Article
                                   on the Myth of Free Will.

                                                   Kind Regards, Samson.

                 


                 

[OBrenda]

Hi Samson,

This is fantastic!
I've mulled over sending scriptures to Friends & Family without making much comments, and let them read for themselves! 
This is organized well to do that.  And is good to have for self study!

Thanks So Very Much!
Brenda

[David]

Hi Samson,

I'm seeing Eph 1:11 a little differently lately to the way I always thought it was to be interpreted.
As I understand it, this scripture has been taught as follows,
In Him (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him (The Father) who works all things according to the counsel of His (The Fathers) will, "


I don't see it that way anymore. This is how it makes perfect sense to me.

In Him (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him (Christ) who works all things according to the counsel of His (The Fathers) will, "

Christ works all things according to the counsel of His  Fathers will. I don't see that God the Father needs to counsel Himself in order to work things according to His will.
Christ always does everything according to the Fathers will. We on the other hand do not. We do all things according to His predestined plan and purpose, but not His will. All of what we do in our carnal state is totally contrary to Gods will.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Luke 7:29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will (counsel in the KJV) of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

There are many many scriptures that tell us that Gods people did many things "against God" "Contrary" to God etc. 

No. I'm thinking that Eph 1:11 is talking about Christ doing the will of the Father, not God the Father doing the will of God the Father. And we as carnal human beings certainly do nothing according to the counsel of Gods will, we do everything against Gods will.

Before I'm accused, I am in no way suggesting or saying that this scripture contradicts Gods sovereignty, or His plan and purpose. God is in control of everything, we do not have a free will. What I'm saying is that we do not do Gods will as carnal people in the world, carnal Christians, even converted Christians growing in Christ, we still fall.

There have been those calling themselves Gods ministers or teachers (Not anyone here, or Ray I hasten to add), that have misused this scripture in the interpretation I set out at the start of my post that its Gods will that people murder, rape, perpetrate terrorism etc, "because its all Gods will, He's working it all". As Ray has pointed out on numerous occasions, these people who do such things are not doing the will of God.

[ciy]

Samson,

This is a good exercise, but realize the scope.  There are several powerful verses similar to what you posted; however, there are 100s of others that are as powerful and obvious or are speaking of God's sovereignty in other ways.  

Go to your Esword and search for "God caused", "God causes", "the Lord caused", "God made", etc and see how many times examples are given to prove God is causing everything that is happening.  Look at where Moses did not want to go to Pharoah: Gideon did not want to form an army: Jonah did not want to speak to Ninevah: Isaiah did not want to speak to Israel, etc but in every instance God caused them to change their mind and heart.  

Go to Proverbs 16 and other chapters are sprinkled throughout with verses on God's complete sovereignty.  

All of this is so important to stay in daily until one can begin to really believe there is no freewill instead of just saying it and then turning from the mirror and forgetting what one looks like.  Living the truth is the thing, fighting daily.  To realize deep inside that everything that happens from good to evil is from the Lord.  

It is not about the physical truths.  It is about the spiritual truths.

CIY

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Samson,

Here are a few more, there are many additional scriptures that speak of man as clay and the Lord as the Potter, how beautifully descriptive that analogy is;

Pro 16:9  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Ecc 7:13  Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:6  O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Lam 3:9  He hath enclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.

Peace,

Joe

[Ricky]

Thx Samsom, can you go on with verses that disprove hell, tithes, and other christian church beliefs.
    Bless you all         Ricky

[Samson]

Thankyou for your Comments,


                                        Ricky, I prefer or desire to stay with the information focusing on the Myth
                                        of Free Will Series, so as not to veer off this specific Topic. There is
                                        approximately 125 pages from those four Parts. Nothing Personal. Also
                                        looking for individual examples of those who didn't have Free Will from
                                        the Scriptures.

                                        Below is an excerpt from Ray, Myth of Free will part A differentiating
                                        between God's Stated Will and his Plan.

                                        DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN GOD'S STATED WILL AND HIS PLAN OR INTENTIONS

Few students of the Scriptures have learned the truth regarding God's stated WILL and His PLAN or INTENTIONS. They are clearly not one and the same. They operate completely differently for different purposes.

First we should understand that God's will is used both as a noun and a verb. As a noun, God's will is virtually synonymous with His GOAL. It is usually not too hard to tell in Scripture whether the word "will" is used as a noun or a verb. In the Scripture we just used to show that things only happen "if God will," it is used as a verb. And whenever God uses His will as a verb, then it absolutely will be fulfilled and carried out at the time and place that He wills it.

If, however, God is speaking of His will as a noun, meaning His ultimate goal, then it does not immediately come about in totality at the place and time that He states it. A perfect example of God's will as a noun and it not coming to total fruition at the place and time stated, is in what is popularly called "The Lord's Prayer."

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heave" (Matt. 6:9-10).

I don't think too many would argue that God's kingdom and His will has not totally come to this earth as it is in heaven. This is a goal—it will happen, just not at this time. And so man's will is almost always at variance with God's stated will as His ultimate goal for the human race. But God's day-to-day willing of events to carrying out His plan is never ever contradicted or thwarted by puny man. Paul understood this principle perfectly.


                    Some Scriptural Examples of those who didn't have Free Will mentioned below.



               The Apostle Peter--In Matthew Chapter 26 Peter said although the others would be stumbled,
                he would never be made to stumble, he said he would not deny Jesus, even if he had to die
                with him. Jesus said that Peter would deny him three times before the cock crowed.

                Comment- So it was Peters Will that he would not deny Jesus and would even die
                                              with him, but fear was the prior cause leading to a different choice or
                                              outcome, God's Will stated through Jesus. All the disciples forsook him
                                              and fled.

                Example of Pharaoh below.


                                     

We will now look at some of the most profound and yet most misunderstood and not believed Scriptures in the entire Bible.

"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Rom. 9:15).

Just who is in control in this statement, puny man or God? Man's will is not free to contradict what God says He WILL DO.

"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy" (Ver. 16).

What puny man "wills" has absolutely nothing to do with what God WILL DO.

"For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens" (Vers. 17-18).

Pharaoh did not harden his own heart—God said that He hardened it.

Remember I said that God has a stated will as a goal and an active will in the plan or process of obtaining His stated will? Right here we can see this principle in action:

God states His will:

"Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go..." (Ex. 9:1).

There is God's stated will—He wants Pharaoh to "Let my people go..." But does God expect or even want His "will be done on earth" at the time that He declares it? Obviously not. In fact, it is God Himself, Who prevents Pharaoh from doing God's stated will of letting His people go. Notice it:
 
"And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses" (Ver. 12).
Most Christians just plain refuse to believe these very simple Scriptures. Yet the ramifications of these Scriptural truths are enormous. Notice what God did with Pharaoh:

First God tells Moses to tell Pharaoh to "to let My people go." And Pharaoh would have let the Hebrews go. Sure he would, had not God Himself intervened. Why would Pharaoh let them go? Because Pharaoh's heart was both soft and weak. A soft and weak heart was no match for God. Pharaoh would have caved in and let His people go. But God did not want Pharaoh to let His people go. He asked Pharaoh to let His people go, but He didn't want Pharaoh to let them go this easily.

Next God has to do something in order to prevent Pharaoh from letting His people go. God actually wants Pharaoh to go against His stated will. God's stated will is "let My people go," but God doesn't want Pharaoh to do God's stated will at this time. He wants Pharaoh to resist God.

God has not changed, God still wants mankind to resist Him. But Pharaoh (just like the rest of humanity) is too weak and soft to resist God. So what does God do? Two things:

"And I will harden [Heb: qashah—to make hard] Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay My hand upon Egypt, and bring forth Mine armies, and My people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth Mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them"

After God hardens Pharaoh's heart [makes it harder than it was], and Pharaoh resists God's will and refuses to let the Hebrews go, God then puts greater and greater plagues upon Egypt until even hard-hearted Pharaoh gives in and lets the people go. But notice what God does after this.

"For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness has shut them in. And I will harden [Heb: chazaq—to make strong and courageous] Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so" (Ex. 14:3-4).
Pharaoh was naturally too soft of heart to resist letting the Hebrews go, and so God hardened his soft heart so that he would resist and would not let the people go until God first made a great display of His strength to the Egyptians. And after Pharaoh did let the people go, God wanted Pharaoh to try and follow after them and kill them. But this time we find that Pharaoh's heart was too weak. And so again, God strengthens and gives courage to Pharaoh's weak heart, and Pharaoh charges after Israel only to be totally defeated by God in the Red Sea.

Well, there it is. How hard is that to understand? But who will believe it? From Pharaoh's birth until his death, God had a purpose for Pharaoh's life, and God controlled every aspect of it. Pharaoh had not "free will" in any of these events. God changes not; He operates the same way in everyone's life. You will either be a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor, and it is ALL UP TO GOD!

                 Looking Forward to more individual examples, Samson.

[E. Woods]

?  What if a man who does not believe in Christ, kills himself?
      are you saying God made him do it?      E.J.

[Akira329]

Hi Samson,

I'm seeing Eph 1:11 a little differently lately to the way I always thought it was to be interpreted.
As I understand it, this scripture has been taught as follows,
In Him (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him (The Father) who works all things according to the counsel of His (The Fathers) will, "


I don't see it that way anymore. This is how it makes perfect sense to me.

In Him (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him (Christ) who works all things according to the counsel of His (The Fathers) will, "

Christ works all things according to the counsel of His  Fathers will. I don't see that God the Father needs to counsel Himself in order to work things according to His will.
Christ always does everything according to the Fathers will. We on the other hand do not. We do all things according to His predestined plan and purpose, but not His will. All of what we do in our carnal state is totally contrary to Gods will.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Luke 7:29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will (counsel in the KJV) of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

There are many many scriptures that tell us that Gods people did many things "against God" "Contrary" to God etc. 

No. I'm thinking that Eph 1:11 is talking about Christ doing the will of the Father, not God the Father doing the will of God the Father. And we as carnal human beings certainly do nothing according to the counsel of Gods will, we do everything against Gods will.

Before I'm accused, I am in no way suggesting or saying that this scripture contradicts Gods sovereignty, or His plan and purpose. God is in control of everything, we do not have a free will. What I'm saying is that we do not do Gods will as carnal people in the world, carnal Christians, even converted Christians growing in Christ, we still fall.

There have been those calling themselves Gods ministers or teachers (Not anyone here, or Ray I hasten to add), that have misused this scripture in the interpretation I set out at the start of my post that its Gods will that people murder, rape, perpetrate terrorism etc, "because its all Gods will, He's working it all". As Ray has pointed out on numerous occasions, these people who do such things are not doing the will of God.

Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?

Antaiwan

[David]

Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?

Antaiwan

I don't think my comments do prove the first rendering, therefore I cannot answer your question.
The point I was makng, obviously not very well, is that this scripture is often used as a "proof" that everything that people do is Gods will by rendering the second "Him" in this verse to be God the Father. I believe it refers to Christ.

[Akira329]

Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?

Antaiwan

I don't think my comments do prove the first rendering, therefore I cannot answer your question.
The point I was makng, obviously not very well, is that this scripture is often used as a "proof" that everything that people do is Gods will by rendering the second "Him" in this verse to be God the Father. I believe it refers to Christ.

Hey David,
I believe you have a point.
Boiling over it, it doesn't seem to matter whether it was God or Christ. God accomplishes his work through his Son.
I found this old thread that help me to understand.
I see why you would render it such a way.


   Good Morning!
In looking at "all things" this morning, a pattern seems to emerge!

1--He makes ALL THINGS 
John 1:33
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


2--He subues ALL THINGS
Psalm 119:91
Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet...

3-- He brings ALL THINGS to himself
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

4-- He fills ALL THINGS
Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

5--He brings ALL THINGS to an end
1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

6--He makes ALL THINGS new!
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Posted by Joyce.

Honestly I get very confused by this set of scriptures in Ephesians. I must keep up with the whom, him, his and he.
seems minor though.

Antaiwan

[David]

Hey David,
I don't see why you needed to change those scriptures when your very comments afterwards prove the first rendering.
Please explain how changing it furthered your point?

Antaiwan

I don't think my comments do prove the first rendering, therefore I cannot answer your question.
The point I was makng, obviously not very well, is that this scripture is often used as a "proof" that everything that people do is Gods will by rendering the second "Him" in this verse to be God the Father. I believe it refers to Christ.

Hey David,
I believe you have a point.
Boiling over it, it doesn't seem to matter whether it was God or Christ. God accomplishes his work through his Son.
I found this old thread that help me to understand.
I see why you would render it such a way.


   Good Morning!
In looking at "all things" this morning, a pattern seems to emerge!

1--He makes ALL THINGS 
John 1:33
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


2--He subues ALL THINGS
Psalm 119:91
Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet...

3-- He brings ALL THINGS to himself
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

4-- He fills ALL THINGS
Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

5--He brings ALL THINGS to an end
1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

6--He makes ALL THINGS new!
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Posted by Joyce.

Honestly I get very confused by this set of scriptures in Ephesians. I must keep up with the whom, him, his and he.
seems minor though.

Antaiwan

Thank you Antaiwan.
I too get confused as to who Paul is refering to sometimes. In ch 1 of Ephesians he's constantly using Him, He, Himself, and its all interchanging between Christ and God the Father. It may be a minor point to some, but as confusing as it is I think its important to try and determine which He, Him, Himself Paul means. The reason being, and this is just my oppinion I'm not trying to push anything.........its so easy to to render all the "Him" as the Father in verse 11, and just say "well its all Gods will, Eph 1:11 says so.....whatever happens, whatever sins we do, etc etc, its all Gods will,  don't blame me, blame God, its His will" and I have come accross that attitude, and there are false ministers teaching it.
Clearly sinning is not Gods will, Gods will is for us to be free from sin and death. It is all Gods plan and purpose, it is all caused by God, He puts the situations in place, but we make the caused choices, and as carnal people its always against Gods will. Thats why I think its important to render the 2nd Him in verse 11 as Christ, Christ always does the will of the Father, He (Christ) works all things according to to the counsel of His (the Fathers) will.

[Akira329]

From Rays Free Will Paper
"...Who works ['operates'] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)
"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).
"And ALL THINGS are of God..." (II Cor. 5:;18).
"...according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Grammatically speaking I will stick with the him as God the Father right now.
1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Like I said I do see why you render it such a way.

Though I believe the inital purpose for all things came from the Father.
Thanks David

Antaiwan

[Daddysgirl]

From Rays Free Will Paper
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11)
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will” (Eph. 1:11).

Grammatically speaking I will stick with the him as God the Father right now.
1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Like I said I do see why you render it such a way.

Though I believe the inital purpose for all things came from the Father.
Thanks David

Antaiwan

David

I also have to agree with Antaiwan. When i initially saw your post i had a problem with the "He" being Jesus, not that the scripture wouldn't be true if it were Jesus, but this has been my best scripture in understanding that all is of God the father.

Also, i find that the "His Own Will" part in the end renders the "working"(operates) to God. I hope you get what i mean. It would hardly make sense to include "own" if it were Jesus doing the "working".

Nonetheless, i also see where you coming from.

Matty

[legoman]

Here are some more verses on this.  On occasion I've pointed these out to people who believe in free will:

Matthew 10
29-"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30-"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31-"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Col 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Job 14:16
For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?

Psalm 37:23
The steps of a man are established by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Proverbs 20:24
A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.


Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.


Proverbs 20:24 and Jer 10:23 are very revealing. God is directing our steps - how can we understand it all? Very telling as many people go along in life wondering what they are here for. It is all being directed according to God's plan. But it can seem confusing if you don't realize that.

Of course don't forget to read Psalm 139 where we see that God knows everything about us, even what we will think & say before we say it.

And then there's the unfortunate moment when we will die. That too has been planned and appointed by God:


Job 14:5
Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

But not only that, God has also determined how many days we must wait until we are made alive again at the resurrection:

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


God is directing it all for his good purposes:

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.

1 Cor 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:



Romans 9 and many other places also confirm the lack of free will.

But who believes it....

Kevin

[David]

From Rays Free Will Paper
"...Who works ['operates'] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)
"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).
"And ALL THINGS are of God..." (II Cor. 5:;18).
"...according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Grammatically speaking I will stick with the him as God the Father right now.
1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Like I said I do see why you render it such a way.

Though I believe the inital purpose for all things came from the Father.
Thanks David

Antaiwan

David

I also have to agree with Antaiwan. When i initially saw your post i had a problem with the "He" being Jesus, not that the scripture wouldn't be true if it were Jesus, but this has been my best scripture in understanding that all is of God the father.

Also, i find that the "His Own Will" part in the end renders the "working"(operates) to God. I hope you get what i mean. It would hardly make sense to include "own" if it were Jesus doing the "working".

Nonetheless, i also see where you coming from.

Matty

Interesting points Matty.

I think it hardly makes sense either with the words "after the counsel" (counsel, advise, consult) to render it as "God The Father". I have a problem with God needing to counsel, advise or consult Himself before He can do His will.

Not all Bibles have the  word "Own".
David 

[Snowfire]

Dave, I see Ray's recent study on "Wisdom" as an answer to your question.  I'm seeing that in that everything that God does, he councils himself to do it.  To put in human terms, it sort of like before actually building something a person goes over in his mind how he plans to achieve the end product.  He considers how every thing will work and everything that he knows will not work, in effect reasoning out things with the mind.

God council within himself what will work and what will not work.

Just my thoughts,
Rick

[Akira329]

Eph 1:11

(ALT)  in Him in whom also we were appointed by lot [or, obtained an inheritance], having been predestined according to the purpose [or, plan] of the One supernaturally working all [things] according to the counsel [or, intention] of His will,

(ASV)  in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

(BBE)  In whom we have a heritage, being marked out from the first in his purpose who does all things in agreement with his designs;

(Bishops)  In whom also we are chosen, beyng predestinate accordyng to the purpose of hym who worketh all thynges after the councell of his owne wyll:

(CEV)  God always does what he plans, and that's why he appointed Christ to choose us.

(CLV) in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

(Darby)  in whom we have also obtained an inheritance, being marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will,

(DRB)  In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will.

(EMTV)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

(ESV)  In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

(Geneva)  In whom also we are chosen when we were predestinate according to ye purpose of him, which worketh all things after the counsell of his owne will,

(GNB)  All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning.

(GW)  God also decided ahead of time to choose us through Christ according to his plan, which makes everything work the way he intends.

(KJV+)  InG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 we have obtained an inheritance,G2820 being predestinatedG4309 accordingG2596 to the purposeG4286 of him who workethG1754 all thingsG3956 afterG2596 theG3588 counselG1012 of his ownG848 will:G2307

(KJV-1611)  In whom also we haue obteined an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsell of his owne will:

(KJVA)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(LITV)  in whom we also have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of the One working all things according to the counsel of His own will,

(MKJV)  in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,

(RNKJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(Rotherham) In whom also we were taken as an inheritance, according to the purpose of him who energiseth all things according to the counsel of his will,

(RV)  in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

(Webster)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(YLT)  in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

Antaiwan

[David]

Thank you Rick and Antaiwan

However, I will never again render eph 1:11 as the 2nd "Him" being God the Father, regardless of the brother or sister, minister, teacher, theologian etc that is telling me that this is the way it should be rendered. I am confident in my belief that it is Christ being talked about that does all things according to the will of the Father, and the Gospels are full of scriptures that tell us that Christ always did the will of the Father, where as mankind certainly did not and does not. I'm seeing that the implications of rendering it otherwise is almost as bad as eternal torment doctrines etc.   
Rape, Murder, Torture, kidnapp, terrorism, perversion etc are NOT the will of God, God does not have any desire for these things to happen, it is not His pleasure, it is not His wish.

[mharrell08]

Thank you Rick and Antaiwan

However, I will never again render eph 1:11 as the 2nd "Him" being God the Father, regardless of the brother or sister, minister, teacher, theologian etc that is telling me that this is the way it should be rendered. I am confident in my belief that it is Christ being talked about that does all things according to the will of the Father, and the Gospels are full of scriptures that tell us that Christ always did the will of the Father, where as mankind certainly did not and does not. I'm seeing that the implications of rendering it otherwise is almost as bad as eternal torment doctrines etc.   
Rape, Murder, Torture, kidnapp, terrorism, perversion etc are NOT the will of God, God does not have any desire for these things to happen, it is not His pleasure, it is not His wish.

John 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 17:8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 6:38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


David,

You speak as if Christ is independent of His Father...Christ only speaks what His Father gives him to speak as He is the WORD of God. God works all according to the counsel of His will as His will & counsel is perfect.


Marques