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Author Topic: Are we or are we not to be "Lorded" over?  (Read 2016 times)

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Decky

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Are we or are we not to be "Lorded" over?
« on: December 06, 2008, 11:26:36 AM »

Hello Forum,

I'm hoping someone could help me with an apparent discrepancy, which I'm sure isn't a discrepancy, I just may be misinterpreting something.  In Mark 10:42,43 Jesus told the disciples. "Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the gentiles exercise lordship over them, and their great ones exercise authority upon them, but so shall it NOT(Emphasis mine)be among you:but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister. Yet in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he said, "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and ARE OVER YOU IN THE LORD(Emphasis mine), and admonish you." (5:12)

I checked some other versions and they pretty much say the same thing:

Concordant Literal & Rotherham's- "To know them who are toiling over you and PRESIDING over you..."

Young's-"...Leading you in the Lord"

Can someone address this for me please, or direct me to an email that Ray may have written on the subject?

Thank you

D

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mharrell08

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Re: Are we or are we not to be "Lorded" over?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 12:44:00 PM »

Email replies from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1699.0.html):

  So "God expects us to be under the authority of someone: overseer, bishop, structured organization...."
     
    Oh really?  And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of heresy, Stephen?
     
    "But Jesus called them to Him and said unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise AUTHORITY upon them. But so shall it  N-O-T  BE AMONG YOU...."  (Mark 10:42-43).
     
    Once chapter later Jesus said:  "And Jesus answering said unto them [as I am saying unto you, Stephen] NEITHER do I tell you by what authority I do these things"  (Mark 11:33).
     
    Have a nice day,
    Ray



You will have to get up a little earlier in the morning than that, Stephen, if you think you can make me contradict myself:

Stephen!  Jesus was talking about the "AUTHORITY" that the GENTILES exercised, not the "Jewish religion." Now then, as you do not wish that anyone be directly under the authority of "God" but some organization of men, where is your Scripture for what authority the Apostles were directly UNDER, if not Jesus Christ Himself?  Where was their intermediator authority?  You speek as a fool.

We are to follow the foot steps of JESUS CHRIST, not the authority of man:  "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow HIS STEPS [not some unauthorized instituionalized organization of men]" (I Peter. 2:21).

Furthermore:  "...as He IS, SO [also, likewise, in the same manner] ARE WE in this world" (I Peter 4:17).  No human self-appointed holier-than-thou MAN has one iota of spiritual authority over me!! And that is why I can teach the Truths of God, unfettered.

Sincerely,

Ray


Also, the Greek word for 'over you' in 1 Thess 5:12 is 'proïstēmi [Gk-4291' which can mean: to be a protector or guardian; to care for, give attention to. Here are some other instances from scripture to give you a better idea of what this word means:

Rom 12:8  ...he that ruleth [Gk-4291], with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness

1 Tim 3:4  One that ruleth [Gk-4291] well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity

Titus 3:8  ...that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain [Gk-4291] good works. These things are good and profitable unto men

Titus 3:14  And let our's also learn to maintain [Gk-4291] good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.


Also, consider the emphasis Paul was stating in this chapter:

1 Thess 5

9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

12  And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

13  And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.


These who are stated to be 'over us' are our brethren which labour with us. As well as, they are 'over us' in the Lord or in spirit. They are working and admonishing us as teachers or sheperds. Kind of like Ray who does refer to himself as a teacher. We know that the true head of God's church is Christ and that is why Ray relies on the Word as his foundation to all his teachings.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

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Re: Are we or are we not to be "Lorded" over?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 05:04:02 PM »


Hi Decky,

(RSV) Mar 10:42  And Jesus called them to him and said to them, "You know that those who are supposed to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
v. 43  But it shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant,

What it appears to me that Jesus is saying is that people in the world want to have authority and "lord it over" or order people around.  But He is saying among the believers this is not the way it should be.  Jesus does not want us to be seeking power and authority over each other, as James and John had just ask for this type thing.

Mark 10:37  They said to Him, "Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory."

Jesus then explains that believers should be concerned with, as He had set the example for us of serving.

Mark 10:44  and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.
v. 45  For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many."

Though as some have been given a better understanding of the truth and should be respected in that, but those are to still remain humble and serve one another.

1Pe 5:5  Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

Rom 12:16  Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; never be conceited.

We should desire to become united as one in spirit with God, as He is above all.  So being united as one is to be equal with one another.

Eph 4:3  Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
v. 4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
v. 5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
v. 6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
v. 7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Here is an excerpt from the article 'Gehenna Fire Judgment.'   

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm -------------------

ADMONITION: "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labor among you, and are over you [practice in front of you] in the Lord, and admonish you" (I Thes. 5:12). Strong's #3560, "noutheteo to put in mind, to caution or reprove gently: admonish, warn." Teachers are not "over" the congregation as the Church practices it, but rather are to be "practicing examples of what they preach." Paul said to "...be ye followers of me" (I Cor. 4:16). And of course, when we are not following correctly, we need to make CHANGES. The whole Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures were written and preserved for "our admonition" (I Cor. 10:11). For our caution against making the same mistakes and sins, and gentle reproving to correct areas of deficiency.
-------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Akira329

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Re: Are we or are we not to be "Lorded" over?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 09:51:08 PM »

Hey Decky!
Also listen to Rays Church Government Audio
He goes into this

Hope it helps with your understanding.
Antaiwan
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Decky

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Re: Are we or are we not to be "Lorded" over?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 10:13:58 PM »

Once again, you all came through and now I have a better understanding. Oh and Antaiwan I had forgotten all about the Church Government audio. I listened to it months ago. I just listened to it again and yes, I do understand now

Thank you all
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Are we or are we not to be "Lorded" over?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 01:19:29 PM »

 To add : Excerpt from LOF Instalment XVart D – 4 Gehenna Fire Judgment.

ADMONITION: And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you {practice in front of you} in the Lord, and admonish you” (1Thes 5 : 12) Strongs #3560  “noutheteo to put in mind, to caution or reprove gently: admonish, warn. “ Teachers are not “over” the congregation as the Church practices it, but rather are to be “practicing examples of what they preach. “ Paul said to “…be ye followers of me.” (1 Cor. 4:16) And of course, when we are not following correctly, we need to make CHANGES.  The whole Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures were written and preserved for “ our admonition” (1 Cor 10:11). For our caution against making the same mistakes and sins, and gentle reproving to correct areas of deficiency. …………..The Catholics have their earthly priests to intercede with God on their behalf. How much better to have Jesus Christ, the Only High Priest, Who PLEADS to God for our welfare.
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