Abraham & Sarah

[hillsbororiver]

This topic was mentioned in another thread and 'coincidently' I had been looking into this subject very recently, although I make no claim in having a definitive answer to it I do have some observations that I thought might make for an interesting thread and perhaps inspire some of us to dig deeper into our bibles.

First of all Abraham predated Moses and the Levitical laws by over 600 years, perhaps I missed it but I found no scripture that predates Lev 18:9 or Lev 20:17.

Lev 18:9  The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

Lev 20:17  And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter and see her nakedness and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

With that being said I am not making any claim that Sarah and Abraham were indeed brother and sister or half brother and sister, as a matter of fact I lean toward the idea that Abraham was telling a 'white lie' or being purposely ambiguous so as to keep himself alive (but risk losing his wife). There are two places where Abraham (as Abram first) makes this statement.

Gen 12:11  And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

Gen 12:12  Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.

Gen 12:13  Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

Gen 12:14  And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.

Gen 12:15  The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.

Gen 12:16  And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses and menservants and maidservants and she asses and camels.

Gen 12:17  And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

Gen 12:18  And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

Gen 12:19  Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

Gen 12:20  And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away and his wife, and all that he had.

We see that it all turns out well this first time, the Lord covered Abram's deception with no harm done to either him or his wife (at least at that time), did Abram show a lack of faith in God by lying instead of telling the truth or is/was Sarai indeed his half sister by blood or by a careful manipulation of words?

Well it worked once, why not again?

Genesis 20

1And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.

2And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.

3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

4But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

7Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

8Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid.

9Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

10And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?

11And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.

12And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

13And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.

14And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife.

15And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee.

16And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

17So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.

18For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

Let's look closer at Gen 20:12;

Gen 20:12  And yet indeed she is my sister;269 she is the daughter of my father,1 but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

Are we witnessing the self justification of Abraham, continuing this deceit to save face with Abimelech? Here are Strong's definitions of the Hebrew words for sister and father;

H269
אחות
'âchôth
aw-khoth'
Irregular feminine of H251; a sister (used very widely (like H250), literally and figuratively): - (an-) other, sister, together.


H1
אב
'âb
awb
A primitive word; father in a literal and immediate, or figurative and remote application: - chief, (fore-) father ([-less]), X patrimony, principal. Compare names in "Abi-"

Was Abraham (cleverly) referring to himself Sarah as both being children of God thus "the same father"?

My perception or present understanding is no matter what our sin(s) God has covered us in the Blood of His Son, we all are guilty yet His provision gives us life rather than a death sentence, even when we lack faith He provides, even when we take the path of the least resistance instead of taking the higher more difficult road He forgives, whether we are purged in this life or in judgment we are all destined to be heirs of His glory.

Will Abraham and Sarah be judged for these acts in the second resurrection?

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Read this entire chapter for more depth and clarity).

I think we all too often ascribe greater attributes to the Prophets and Apostles than what was the reality, they were all frail and vain beasts without the Spirit directing and inspiring them, we are all the same in that regard. Without God's Spirit we are only self righteous and selfish sinning machines.

Peace,

Joe

[Carlos31]

Eve was Adam's flesh, therefore his sister.

[hillsbororiver]

Hmmmmm.....

Eve came out of Adam, so Adam must be Eve's mother too, right?

Peace,

Joe

[Falconn003]

MAMA  mia........   

Rodger

[OBrenda]

Trying to picture such a barbaric culture that You could be killed in order to have your wife taken from you?
We think our current Culture is Sinful, (it is)....But we cave in to pressure for far less than losing our lives!

And in the intervention of God on his behalf, could this have influenced his great faith to latter be willing to sacrifice his own Son back to God?

Love your Thoughtful & Insightful posts Joe!

Thanks,
Brenda

Carlos my friend, I also don't get your conclusion about Eve being Adams Sister 

[Ninny]

Rodger, I have to second your mama mia! Ha! This is all so strange, puzzling and weird! (redundancy?) 
Carlos, my dear you are having trouble seeing the forest for the trees!
I think we can safely say that no matter what people may or may not have done in the past-- God doesn't want you to marry your sister! 
Kathy

[iris]

Good post Joe!

Hmmmmm.....

Eve came out of Adam, so Adam must be Eve's mother too, right?

Peace,

Joe

I'll third Rodger's mama mia on the second post! 

[Beloved]

     Mamma Mia is a really stupid movie   

First to address Joe, Abraham and Sarah are spritually significant couple they were the ones through which God established his "covenant of the people".
They were the start of something new...as well as being the lineage to  Christ

Adam  and Eve were the beginning,  God was their parent.  Adam and Eve were not sister or brother because they did not exactly come out of one parent.   

They were nearly genetically identical. Eve was the genetic template of Adam.   Adam was not exactly a  mother either.  Remember that Eve too was physically assembled by God not Adam.  It was not Adam's his rib but his genetic makeup that God used. 

In the physical, God must have given some exceptional genes to these two people...look how long they lived back then .  Adam lived 930 years his offspring Methulsela reached the max of 969

Now right before the flood God declared

Gen 6:3  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years

God said...and in time

Abraham was the  18th generation he only lived 175 years.  Isaac lived for 180 yrs and he was the 19th generation and Jacob lived for 147 yrs and he was the 20th generation. After that there was a 400 yr void.......no history of the generations

It took the 400 period in Eygpt for this to come to pass...and look who finally fulfilled the word

Deu 34:7  And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

The reason the laws of Moses spoke against consanquity was because by that time their genes had developed mutations....they started having recessive genes creep in. The problem with recessive genes is they often can be carried as a single gene without too much problem, but when you get a double dose then you have many conditions develop, some which are lethal....hemophilia, mental diseases etc..

Adam and Eve were idential , if they possessed only dominant genes. Then they and their offspring , the next 20 generations or so would have not suffered from any of these disorders.

from wikipedia 

The offspring of consanguinous relationships are at greater risk of certain genetic disorders. Autosomal recessive disorders occur in individuals who are homozygous for a particular recessive gene mutation. This means that they carry two copies (alleles) of the same gene. Except in certain rare circumstances (new mutations or uniparental disomy) both parents of an individual with such a disorder will be carriers of the gene.

Such carriers are not affected and will not display any signs that they are carriers, and so may be unaware that they carry the mutated gene. As relatives share a proportion of their genes, it is much more likely that related parents will be carriers of an autosomal recessive gene, and therefore their children are at a higher risk of an autosomal recessive disorder.

The extent to which the risk increases depends on the degree of genetic relationship between the parents; so for incestuous relationships where the parents share 1/2 of their DNA the risk is great, but for relationships between second cousins where the parents only share 1/32 of their DNA the risk is less (although still greater than the general population).[5]


We have all seen that some people especially royalty and religious groups , often ignore the law because of their  desire to retain power and money within their own bloodlines and families. They have all paid the price for this. 

here is a site that shows some Eygptian recessive gene lines.

http://www.jeans4genes.org/files/gc_egypt_samya.doc

Getting back to the meat of the matter, all these things being discussed are of the flesh.  understand that flesh profith nothing 

Take the word brethern ...adelphos = a + womb. We are all of one body and one mind....there are no longer genes (genetic threads)  to contend with.... There will be no bond nor free , jew nor gentile, male ror female, etc 

You are right Joe, , as the prophets and apostles etc were, we are all filty threads, no man will be able to boast about anything.   

I see the history of all mankind as a thread that will be re-weaved into something wondrous.  We all will be mightly amazed by what God has done and therefore all the Glory will be His.

beloved

[Ninny]

Very impressive, Beloved!!
It stands to reason that Adam and Eve were nearly genetically identical, after they were like you said "assembled by God" out of the same genetic material. I love it!
Amen, sister!!
Kathy

[charrie]

Here's a thought

What come first "the egg or the chicken"?  The chicken of course,

Does not man hold the sperm of creation of like mankind?  So wouldn't it have been appropriate for Father to have, in His infinite wisdom, Adam give "birth" to Eve.  Not that this would make Eve Adam's child or anything like that, but the beginning of passing on the lineage.  From Father came Adam from Adam came Eve from Adam and Eve came Cain and Abel from, etc......

We now, of course, that Father was first.  But in reference to man, the chicken(Adam) came first...the egg must come from a "sperm"

Just my thoughts.

Charrie

[DizzyD]

          Howdy to all,
        Joe: good thread and good input from others.
but i did have something to jump out at me and wanted to comment on it.

Gen 20:6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

The immediate thought that came across my mind was "so much for Adimelechs' "free" will." This is one of many examples that God shows us He  is in control,but man thinks he has complete control over his steps on the path of life.

        my thought is that this is just another nail in the coffin of "free will"           

                                                             Bud

[Deborah-Leigh]

During the OT times genealogy was like a status symbol. If your name was recorded in the genealogy register, then you were, a somebody eg a man of valor !Chr 7 : 5 a mighty warrior 1Ch 7 : 9 chief of the princes 1 Ch 7 : 40.

The only register we are to be found in of any noteworthiness today, is disclosed in the NT that is the book of The Life of the Lamb Rev 13 : 8

The carnal human birth right has progressed from physical to spiritual. For this reason we are admonished to avoid giving heed to genealogies 1 Ti 1 : 4 and backsliding into physical vanities, pride and prejudices.

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

Here is how GOD says He created Adam and Eve:

"For the creature was made subject to vanity [King James Margin: "futility"], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected [Gk: 'subjects'—aorist tense—subjecting is still going on] the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

In Dante's inferno, "all hope is gone...," but in God's realm He subjects the entire creation "...in HOPE,"

God willfully, wantingly, knowingly, purposely, and wisely, created mankind "subject to vanity," subject to failure, but beyond the failure, God also subjects the same in "hope." Once again, contrary to all orthodox doctrine, there is hope for all of God's carnal-minded, God-hating people on planet Earth. God Himself says so, in the same breath: "because the creature itself [the same creation that God subjects to vanity, futility, failure, and carnal-minded hatred against God] also shall be [ah, did you catch that? 'shall be'], delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21).

God calls His prophets HOLY. Acts 3 : 21

We should too if we are seeing spiritually and reverentially being faithful to the Name of God. Rev 3 : 8

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

Paul was being molded into a SPIRITUAL GIANT! And being trained, educated, purged, perfected into a spiritual giant is NOT a walk in the park!

Was it just Paul that God singled out to endure such hardships and trials? No, we too must partake of the same

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Everyone,

There sure have been some great responses here!

The following observation from Brenda was actually what I had in mind when starting this topic, Abraham learned to trust God as his (Abraham's) earlier failures showed him that God would ultimately provide for him no matter how bleak his circumstances seemed to be. Abraham did not "earn" God's favor, God's favor earned Abraham's trust!

Isn't this what John spoke of?

1Jn 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

And in the intervention of God on his behalf, could this have influenced his great faith to latter be willing to sacrifice his own Son back to God?

Bud made a point that I had overlooked and it is a very profound one for sure;

         
Gen 20:6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

The immediate thought that came across my mind was "so much for Adimelechs' "free" will." This is one of many examples that God shows us He  is in control,but man thinks he has complete control over his steps on the path of life.

        my thought is that this is just another nail in the coffin of "free will"           

                                                           Bud

Excellent observation!

Pro 2:8  He keepeth the paths of judgment and preserveth the way of his saints.

Isa 42:16  And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

Thanks to all who participated, every response is appreciated.

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

From the 2007 Nashville Conference;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384



"So this is the best that God can do , but it's not pretty and it's not fancy and it's not always happy.  It's painful  and sad and much of our lives are misery, you know, laughing on the outside and crying on the inside.  It's not always happy happy happy, but it's necessary.  Is it right, that God should put us through something like that?

We have no say about it, we didn't ask to be born and we didn't ask to get lung cancer or whatever.  We didn't ask for this, God puts us through it.  Is it fair for Him to do that?  Why is it fair?  Well there is something good in store.  But is it necessary that we would have to go through all of this bad first?  It's true, you have to have the contrast.  But sometimes I just say, Lord I think I'm at the place now, Lord I think I'm there. You can take away the bad and see if I'm not thankful. 

He sent Jesus Christ to go through the same stuff we go through and that's why I wanted to bring these out today.  Because most of you never knew that.  Jesus Christ lived a pretty painful life.  Paul lived a pretty painful life, he said I learned to be content in all things.  God put His Son through what we have to go through, because He loves us!  He didn't have to.

Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth.  He did something to acquire God's glory, something.  Because He had it and He didn't get it for nothing.
 
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters.  He has a desire to have something like Himself.  But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff.  So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God.  And to never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through.  He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly.  But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see. 

Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins.  That's true, that's the scripture, Christ died for our sin.  But then we have a scripture here that doesn't mention sin.

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,"

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it's saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying.  What this is saying is God loved us, in this way.  This is the manner and way in which He loved us.  In this way He loved the world.

"...that He gave His only begotten Son,"

Ok, He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

"...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Of course the Bible is written so man don't understand it.  That's why some of these things are put in there, "that who-so-ever believes."  God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe.  So the 'who-so-ever' is going to be everybody, ok. 

But He gave His Son, now here's the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die?  Why?  Why did the Father sacrifice His Son?  Why did He have to do that?  HE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT!  He didn't have to do anything, HE'S GOD!  Why did He?
 
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure.  That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US!  He did not have to die.  He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value?  What can I do?  I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life.  I have all that to give, but they will say,  you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have.  What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you?  And God said, I will DIE!
 
But God can't die, He's eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness.  If you have immortality you can't die. 
So He made a Son.  He made Him great.  And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son.  Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die. 
Then they will know We love them.
 
Then they will know!

Peace,

Joe

[aqrinc]

Amen. Joe,

This is a great thread for our edification when things look dark and impossible.

Trust Love Grace and Faith in GOD Through Jesus Christ our Lord,

george.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi George,

We all need reminders every now and then that all the things we go through have the ultimate purpose of preparing us for His glorious Kingdom.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

There seems to be so much wisdom to be mined in the history of Abraham and Sarah, I wish I could understand it all, there are a couple interesting parallels with Adam and Eve, the first one is a mirror image (the opposite) though.

When Adam contemplated separation from Eve he was willing to die rather than lose her but when Abraham was contemplating what his own fate might be if he stayed with Sarah (twice) he was willing to separate from her and even deny she was his wife.

The other thing I was thinking about was this;

Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Gen 16:2  And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

Both of the above show disobedience and a lack of faith on not only the woman but the man as well after he followed the reasoning of the woman rather than the Word of God. It is fascinating how these acts of disobedience yet fulfill the ultimate plan and purpose of God, how evil is used to bring about His creation of (eventual) perfect Sons and Daughters.

Peace,

Joe

[OBrenda]

Those are good points Joe!

I can see in my life where I have been like Eve & Sara, trying to compromise to make things work out.  It's good to know in every poor decision's we make, God is bigger and his will, will be accomplished!

YSIC,
Brenda

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Brenda,

I think we all can honestly say we have done this, using our own reasoning rather than intently listening to what God is saying and showing us.

Pro 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You know in the bigger picture of all this we have the churches (prophetically spoken of as the "woman") who are continuing down this path of disobedience and teaching their own reasoning rather than His Word.

Rev 2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

The beautiful thing is that it is all of God and His mercy will be displayed for all to see as this "woman" is also going to be eventually immersed in the glory of Christ and become a member of His immortal family!

Peace,

Joe   

[aqrinc]

To All Who See This,

When i truly contemplate the Scriptures the picture is dizzying and stunningly Glorious.
The Master Builder using HIS Substance to turn dirt (us) into HIS very Essence. Doing
this because HE WILL Have Sons and Daughters with every right and privilege HE HAS
to GIVE to us.

I am; Bowing Now Confessing Now That Jesus Christ Is Lord To The Glory OF GOD THE FATHER.

Charity Grace Love Faith Power Longsuffering and Hope,

george.