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Author Topic: Question for you guys and gals.  (Read 3904 times)

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Sorin

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Question for you guys and gals.
« on: December 21, 2008, 06:58:05 PM »

Hi guys, it's been a long time. I have a question for you though.


Ray teaches that there is no "Trinity" and that "God The Father" is not Jesus. But then how do you explain this scripture.

Isaiah 9:6 -- For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Is it just a bad translation? It seems as though it IS referring to Jesus as "God The Father". 

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EKnight

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 07:25:42 PM »

I could be wrong, and I haven't dwelled on it too much because the trinity was never of much importance to me, but I thought Ray said that God and Jesus were one but the Holy Spirit was excluded.  That the Holy Spirit is OF God but not God.  Also it was explained to me here that God is a "title" of which Jesus possessed.

Sorry if this is completely wrong or if my response only served to further confuse you.

Eileen
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DizzyD

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2008, 07:30:48 PM »

     Hi Sorin,
                 At this time i do not have the answer to your question, i am sure someone will have an answer for you before i can dig it up. In the meantime i have the question:
                 Why  these words from Jn 20:17- Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.      straight of of the Saviours mouth are in doubt? Or i guess they just don't what they say.

                i may be wrong but i believe somewhere in Rays' papers he makes the statement that these manmade doctrines have to support each other.



 If you look closely at the scriptures and find the correct translations then the man made doctrine is the one that doesn't sense. Then that is what causes the confusion is holding onto the man made doctrine and believing the doctrine instead of the scriptures.
                                          Love in Christ


                                                    Bud
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2008, 08:22:15 PM »

(CLV) For a Boy is born to us; a Son is given to us, and the chieftainship shall come to be on His shoulder, and His name is called "Marvelous.Counsel to the master shall He bring, to the chief of the future, welfare."

(JPS)  (9:5) For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

(KJV)  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(Rotherham) For, A Child, hath been born to us, A Son, hath been given to us, And the dominion is upon his shoulder,—And his Name hath been called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty GOD, Father of Futurity, Prince of Prosperity.
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OBrenda

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2008, 09:05:24 PM »

Hi guys, it's been a long time. I have a question for you though.


Ray teaches that there is no "Trinity" and that "God The Father" is not Jesus. But then how do you explain this scripture.

Isaiah 9:6 -- For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Is it just a bad translation? It seems as though it IS referring to Jesus as "God The Father". 

Hey Sorin Welcome Back....Please "PM" Samson.....He has missed You!   
 ;D
Brenda
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Beloved

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2008, 09:49:28 PM »

Hi Sorin welcome back

I think that many of the translations of Isaiah 9:6 have been greatly influenced by trinitarian believers.

Here is Rotherhams translation that I think missed in one point

(Isa 9:6)  For, A Child, hath been born to us, A Son, hath been given to us, And the dominion is upon his shoulder,-And his Name hath been called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty GOD, Father of Futurity, Prince of Prosperity.

(Isa 9:7)  Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end-Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness,-From henceforth, Even unto times age-abiding: The jealousy of Yahweh of hosts, will perform this!

For a child has been born to us....a lot of people will be quoting this verse now at Christmas but few really get the meaning and it is not just that the baby boy but that

A Son hath been given to us........For God so loves the world that he gave His only begotten Son

Rotheham then says the dominion, but the word misrah "governmet /empire" is used only here is these two verses of the OT ,  it does rest on His shoulder...all things were given to Jesus, He is the Way and the Truth and the Light

Now Isaiah give a description of His name....we all know that names were very important

Wonderful
No man did what Jesus did when he was here on earth....and God the Father created the whole world with Jesus as the the diameter,

(Col 1:16) For in Him was created the universe of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, thrones, dominions, princedoms, powers--all were created, and exist through and for Him.

(Col 1:17)  And HE IS before all things and in and through Him the universe is a harmonious whole.

Couselor
He is one with the Father and his judgement is therefore true, he is the Way,
 
Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.  He is the guidepost

MIGHTY GOD ??  El Gibbur
Here is a tricky translation  Gibbor.. means mighty
El can be  translated God but it has been translated power or might in many verses,

(Psalm 29:1). "A Psalm of David. Give unto the LORD, O you mighty ones, Give unto the LORD glory and strength"

"(Psalm 36:6).Your righteousness [is] like the mighty mountains"

(Psalm 80:10)."The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches"

(Psalm 82:1).God (elohim) has taken stands in the assembly of the mighty ones (el); he judges in the midst of the gods (elohim)"

"(Proverbs 2:27).Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power/might to do it"

(Ezekiel 31:11)."I will give it into the hand of a mighty one of the nations"

(Ezekiel 32:21).The strong/mighty (el) among the mighty (gibbor) shall speak of them."

(Micah 2:1)."Woe to those who devise wickedness and work evil upon their beds! When the morning dawns, they perform it, because it is in the power/might of their hand"

El is very genral characteristic, that can be applied to God and other things.  So El gibbor could just as well be translated mighty mighty or rather  translated Mighty Power

Also note the reference in Isaiah 9 :7 where it says that Jehovah will bring this all about. It is here where God the Father is definitely referred toand implie that names referred to is something separate from Jehovah.

Everlasting Father?
I like Rotherhams translation Father of Futurity, because Jesus will be the source through which many sons of God will be brought forth.

We are all children “tecknon” of God but we must become “sons- hurios”. These sons will have spiritual bodies and have life eternal.

Strong's defines `ad OT: 5703 as from OT: 5710; properly, a peremptory terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity

Php 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth

Prince of Peace
Jesus is the prince of peace and there is no problem understanding this one.

The second verse 9:7 says

Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end-Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness

Is this is not the plan of God ?

Isa 45:23  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I see no conflict in these verses once you separate out the Trinitarian wording. This is prophetic about the messiah, it is not calling Jesus the Father God.

The Father is the creator and Jesus was from the beginning of creation the perfected will of God. On earth Jesus lived and did the will of God. His death and resurrection is means of faith for all of mankind’s salvation.  Being resurrected He and the Father are spiritually one.


(Isa 9:6)  For, A Child, hath been born to us, A Son, hath been given to us, And the dominion is upon his shoulder,-And his Name hath been called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Power, Father of Futurity, Prince of Prosperity

Beloved

« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 01:49:38 AM by Beloved »
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Jack

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Comment on Sorin's post
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2008, 11:35:08 PM »

Hello everyone, This is my first post on this board, so I am a bit nervous. Sorin's post triggered my thought process. For many many years the trinity doctrine, imortal soul doctrine and incarnation doctrine have been anathema to me, and continue to be so. These Chaldean doctrines are embedded in "Christian" doctrine and teaching and, I believe, have influenced the translations of the Scriptures to support those pagan doctrines. That is also exposed rightfully in Ray's writings.

Regarding Isaiah 9:6, I expect my comment above applies there. Dennis quoted 4 versions of which, I like the Concordant translation best. I think it more correctly describes the prophetic position of the Son of God and Son of Man. Jesus often referred to Himself as "The Son of Man," and his future work as Restorer or Establisher of the lost inheritance. In Hebrew he is called "Ben Adam," i.e. Adam,s son.

Adam means the earthy. By God's design  this earthy one lost his original inheritance, but his son appears as the Restorer of that which was lost. From this viewpoint the general conception concerning the origin of Christ and His becoming man, namely that God incarnated Himself and became God and man in one person, is unscriptural.

Incarnation is a Latin word composed of ini] and caro, flesh and is a remnant of the Chaldean thinity-doctrine. They thought that their third person in the godhead, Tammuz, was Baal himself who, after his death, in some mystical way entered his widow, Queen Ashtaroth, and let himself be born anew. His immortal spirit was incarnated in the body of Ashtaroth. This incarnation and trinity doctrine was generally accepted by the Romans long before it was made a Christian doctrine and the names of the persons in the godhead were changed to reflect the church fathers terminology. This was done in the 3rd and 4th century and mandated as the religion of the State.

The church fathers attributed to Mary, the mother of Jesus, exactly the same as what the Chaldeans attributed to Queen Ashtaroth, namely that she had given birth to God and was, therefore, the mother of God. But by this God Himself is degraded, and all the testimonies concerning the Son of man's relationship to God as His Son and at the same time as the Son of Adam lose their validity.

The origin of Christ is presented by John in 1 John 1: 1-2 with respect to the word "Logos," but this is getting a bit long so if there is any interest, I perhaps can address that in a later post.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

Jack
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Kat

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 12:28:23 AM »


Hi Sorin,

Good to have you back.  I found where Ray has mentioned this verse in the 'Who and What is God?' transcript.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg39178.html#msg39178 ----

[Someone says;  Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.]
Some will say wait a minute, “The everlasting Father?”  Christ (Jehovah) says, He was a Father to Israel.  He’s the eonian God to Israel.  So are we understanding God better? 

Okay, let’s take this a little farther.  We read about God/Elohim, we learn about the Lord God - Jehovah/Elohim, and sometimes we hear about El. 
Now we know in the garden, Christ... though Jehovah is doing the talking, because no man has ever heard God the Father.  So the Lord God (Jehovah/Elohim) said unto the woman, “and the Lord God said…”  Why did He say ‘said’?  Because He’s the spokesman, He’s the Word.  He’s the Word of who?  Elohim, and He is Jehovah/Elohim and His Father is Elohim.  There is only one Elohim.  So it’s the Lord God - Jehovah/Elohim.

When we come to the NT then we read about God.  Jesus Christ said, they ask Him what is the greatest commandment,  He said “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind” (Matt 22:37).  The Greek says, you shall love the Kurios your Theos with all your heart and so on. 

Kurios/Theos… who was He talking about?  The Father.  He’s quoting the OT, that comes out of Deuteronomy, where Jehovah Himself says, “You shall love the Lord your God” (Deu 6:5).  Not Kurios/Theos,  but Jehovah/Elohim. 

Well who are we to worship with all our heart?  Jehovah/Elohim or Kurios/Theos of the NT, who we know is the Father.  But Jehovah/Elohim (where it’s quoted from the OT), is Jesus Christ.  Who is it talking about?  It’s always talking about BOTH.  ALWAYS!

Even though we give Jesus the designation Jehovah/Elohim, it still includes the Father.  Why?  Because there is only ONE Elohim!  He is the Jehovah, one God - there is the Father, one God and together they are the one God.  You just have to believe the scriptures. 

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

One what?  One God and it’s understood, We are one... one God.  We two, are one.  Whenever two are of the same mind and spirit, they are considered one.
--------------------------------------------------------

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 12:50:54 AM by Kat »
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aqrinc

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 12:47:52 AM »


Hi Sorin,

here is a translation from: 1853 Leeser OT
Isaiah:9 5-6

5-For a child is born unto us, a son hath been given unto us, and the government is placed on his shoulders; and his name is called,
Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace,

6For promoting the increase of the government, and for peace without end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish
it and to support it through justice and righteousness, from henceforth and unto eternity: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

I just finished listening to appx 9 hours of Ray's: How we Got the Bible, you can read it here:

1: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

or dload and listen: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_1.mp3 there are 9 total audio files but it is great reading or listening.
it seems poor translations can make for much confusion occasionally.

george. :)
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Beloved

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 01:07:03 AM »

it seems poor translations can make for much confusion occasionally.

george.


 ;D ;D Funny George  ;D

I would say poor translations ALWAYS make for MUCH confusion.

This verse was always seen as a prophetic verse by Israel, they expected a King, a ruler to overthrow their enemies....they did not expect the messiah to be... GOD.  Nor did they even suspect the name Emmanuel...God dwells with us to be literal.

Remember they had no idea of the Gospel...the Seed spoken of through Eve and then through Abraham.

beloved

 

« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 01:40:54 AM by Beloved »
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Sorin

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 01:36:05 AM »

Thank you all for your replies; I think that pretty much covers it. I knew there was an explanation for it. Something about Jesus being his own father just didn't sound right to me.

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gmik

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 01:54:39 AM »

Welcome Jack- no need to be nervous around us! 

Welcome Back Sorin!  Hope all is well w/ you.
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aqrinc

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2008, 02:46:44 AM »


Beloved,

In my dotage i take the long view with short explanations, you would notice my word play.
After about 9 hours straight of How we got the bible i needed to be short and pointed.

george. ;D 8) :-*

it seems poor translations can make for much confusion occasionally.

george.


 ;D ;D Funny George  ;D

I would say poor translations ALWAYS make for MUCH confusion.

This verse was always seen as a prophetic verse by Israel, they expected a King, a ruler to overthrow their enemies....they did not expect the messiah to be... GOD.  Nor did they even suspect the name Emmanuel...God dwells with us to be literal.

Remember they had no idea of the Gospel...the Seed spoken of through Eve and then through Abraham.

beloved

 


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Beloved

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2008, 03:12:02 AM »

Yes george I loved your word play...remember Ray always says...you gotta  pay attention to the words. 

beloved
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aqrinc

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2008, 03:22:05 AM »


That keeps ringing in my ears, i guess all the bookwork at an earlier age does pay off later.
Did you have any new info on Ray's improving health condition beloved. ???

george.
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Samson

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2008, 10:18:20 AM »

Hello Sorin,

                Glad to see your thread, it looks as if Kat, Beloved and others have answered your
                question quite thoroughly. The only thing I might add is that there was no word meaning
                Eternal in any culture until the Second Century CE, by then the Bible Canon was already
                accepted. Rays Bible Study on 11/30/08, the last 20-25 minutes brings that out and how
                the Eternal crept into Jeromes Latin Vulgate.

                                  Kind Regards, Samson.

                 P.S. I was going to quote from the transcript, but it's not there yet, I remember Ray
                       mentioning that the Latin Word avon(probably mispelled by me) originally meant
                       Age, but eventually became Eternus, hence Eternal becoming what we see Today
                       in most Bible Translations, Eternal, Everlasting and Forever instead of Eonian(Agelasting,
                       pertaining to the Ages), Age or Ages. A further distortion is they translate the Greek
                       Aion or Aions as World(Greek Kosmos) in some key places.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 10:29:04 AM by Samson »
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stephen

  • Guest
Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2008, 05:00:42 PM »

The following site gives an interesting answer to your question. What do you guys think.
***Sorry links not allowed*****

Steve
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 05:44:07 PM by Craig »
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Vangie

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Re: Question for you guys and gals.
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2008, 05:18:44 PM »

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8025.0.html

You may be confusing the title "God" with the Father, and the Son (Jesus)

Think of God as a surname

God the Father
and God the Son (Jesus)

Jesus and His Father are both God and equal in that respect, but the Father is greater.  Like at my house, my son is a Parsons and I am a Parsons so we are equal in that respect, but I am greater than my son (at least for now  )

Craig


This post from an earlier thread really clarified this issue for me.  Hope it applies here!

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