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Author Topic: Ecclesiastes 12:7  (Read 5156 times)

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Marlene

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Ecclesiastes 12:7
« on: December 22, 2008, 05:31:08 PM »

Hello, I have a question about Ecclesiastes 12: 7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I know that Ray has an article about when we die we do not know anything. But, it sounds as if our spirit goes back to God. I have so many people who have asked me about this. I know Babylon churches teach we go to heaven or hell at death. But, my question is does our spirits go back to god at death. So, our spirit would have no memory until ressurection. Also, does anyone know of any other scriptures that talks of our spirit returning to God. I would like to give people who wonder about this some good understanding on this. I have family and friends who wonder about this and want to be clear on this matter, if anyone can help I would be thankful for your comments. Would it be that our spirit is in safe keeping with the Lord, but we still know nothing till he ressurects us.

In His Love,
Marlene
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mharrell08

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 05:37:11 PM »

Hello, I have a question about Ecclesiastes 12: 7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I know that Ray has an article about when we die we do not know anything. But, it sounds as if our spirit goes back to God. I have so many people who have asked me about this. I know Babylon churches teach we go to heaven or hell at death. But, my question is does our spirits go back to god at death. So, our spirit would have no memory until ressurection. Also, does anyone know of any other scriptures that talks of our spirit returning to God. I would like to give people who wonder about this some good understanding on this. I have family and friends who wonder about this and want to be clear on this matter, if anyone can help I would be thankful for your comments. Would it be that our spirit is in safe keeping with the Lord, but we still know nothing till he ressurects us.

In His Love,
Marlene


Here you go Marlene...this is an excerpt from Ray's 2nd paper to Dr. Kennedy (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm):

BODY

When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."

SPIRIT

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.

SOUL

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

This is substantiated by the fact that:

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

Again:

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

�         souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)

�         souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)

�         souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)

�         souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)

�         souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)

�         souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)

�         life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)

�         souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)

�         souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)

�         none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)

�         honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)

�         even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)

�         souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)

�         souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)

�         souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)

�         and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).

Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Jackie Lee

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 05:40:37 PM »

Marlene you have touched a subject that has interested me much but has puzzled me also.
 Here are a few scriptures 2 Cornithians..5 Verse 8-10
Phillipians 1 verse 23
1 Thessolonians chapter 13 verse 18
I wonder if the spirit is dormant until activated???
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Jackie Lee

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 05:42:12 PM »

Thanks Marque you posted same time I did, this gives me much to study. :)
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Jackie Lee

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 06:15:17 PM »

Ecclesiastes 7:1
1 A good name is better than fine perfume,
and the day of death better than the day of birth.
Can someone explain what this scripture means?
The day of death is better than day of birth????
I don't see how a good name is better than fine perfume fits into birth and dying. ???
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 06:36:20 PM »

Ecc 7:1  A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

Hi Jackie Lee,

The benefits of even a very expensive ointment or perfume lasts a short time where a good name can endure for centuries.

Youth may have it's beauty but a lifetime of learning and overcoming teaches us that we are a part of something much bigger than ourselves. Youth seeks to be satisfied and is naturally very self centered seeking instant gratification, wisdom (through life experience) learns to appreciate the benefits of delayed gratification and sacrificing for a cause outside their own desires.

I hope this helps a little,

Joe
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Jackie Lee

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 07:35:03 PM »

Thank you Joe that does help. :)
I like there is something much bigger than the life we are now experiencing.
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Marlene

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 08:59:53 PM »

Thanks Marques, I will make a copy of this to use with the people who have been asking for prove. There is a man who does a Bible Study on our TV channel. I saw him before I found Ray's website. He takes questions from time to time. He said, that our spirit goes back to the Lord. Also, someone asked him about Rapture and he said, " There is no rapture", but he does not tell them unless they ask so as not to put a stumbling block in front of them. Now, to me this is not being truthful. I mean people take all this stuff so serious. Like going to  Heaven when you die without a ressurection. Like being taken out of trouble during end time events. One night a friend and I were talking. Her husband gave his life to God on his death bed. Our preacher told her that he was with the Lord right then. She was surprised when I showed her scriptures where the dead know nothing. At first I think she was kind of hurt that he was not in heaven. But then she began to see. To me it is a wonderful thing to know you are only sleeping waiting for the ressurection. There will be no pain or sorrow in death. It just boggles my mind that they think that people are watching us down here. To me that would be so hard to watch them suffer and have trials. Just down right cruel like there Hell doctrine. Oh, the fables men have invented. What sane person could be happy while love ones roast in Hell.

In His Love,
Marlene
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 02:02:58 PM »


Ecclesiastes 7:1
1 A good name is better than fine perfume,
and the day of death better than the day of birth.


Hi again Jackie Lee,

I kept thinking about this verse and although it is quite possible Solomon thought of only the natural life the Spirit as it guided his words was telling later generations that this "day of death" that is 'better' than being born (physically) is the day we begin dying to self and picking up our own cross as we begin the journey in following our Lord.

Just another thought I wanted to add.

Peace,

Joe
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aqrinc

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 05:16:17 PM »


Joe,

Your second point seems to be more in order of what that Scripture is stating. Glad you put it in words
as well as i could; i was seeing (dying flesh good Living Spirit Best). Below are two Scriptures that support
this i believe; there are many more that others can bring out.

Colossians 3:3:
For ye have died, and, your life, is hid, together with the Christ, in God,

Philippians 1:21:
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

george. :)

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Jackie Lee

  • Guest
Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 05:24:16 PM »


Ecclesiastes 7:1
1 A good name is better than fine perfume,
and the day of death better than the day of birth.


Hi again Jackie Lee,

I kept thinking about this verse and although it is quite possible Solomon thought of only the natural life the Spirit as it guided his words was telling later generations that this "day of death" that is 'better' than being born (physically) is the day we begin dying to self and picking up our own cross as we begin the journey in following our Lord.

Just another thought I wanted to add.

Peace,

Joe
Now that seems to agree with me completely, I had not thought of that but...Yes  :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ecclesiastes 12:7
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 05:57:08 PM »

Hi George & Jackie,

If we think about all those who have been born through all the years since creation and the very few who are remembered for some act of selflessness or heroism or incredible inventions that pertain to this world and this life. There have indeed been many accomplishments through history but in relation to how many have been born very few are remembered long after they pass away. This would be the physical or natural fulfillment of what Solomon wrote.

I don't think he (Solomon) really had an insight as to what the spiritual fulfillment of this might be, of course I could be totally wrong here but I don't know that there was anyone who really thought the Messiah would not be coming in a blaze of earthly glory to set up natural, physical Israel as the preeminant Kingdom of this world, even though they had the scriptures stating otherwise.

We see that there were many (Spirit led) heros in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant up to John the Baptist but what did our Lord say about him?


Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

How could this be?

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

It has nothing to do with merit, no man has earned it, but everything to do with the perfect life, sacrificial death and resurrection of our Lord and the path that was opened to those who follow(ed) Him.

I think once again the miracle that is the scriptures has proven to be true on multiple levels.  ;)

Peace,

Joe
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