> General Discussions
The Comforter, The Bible, and The Quran
raginggaijin:
Hello everyone, long time listener.
I am in a lengthy discussion with fellow believers who use the Quran as a qualifier of the Bible. They are not Muslims, they are not of Islam, but Christians who have left the Church and use the Quran as a confirmation of the Bible. I am told that the Bible was changed throughout to lend credence to the Trinity to pervert belief in Christ, raising him as equal with God and usurping worship from our one true God. Their claim lies with the Council of Nicea and following Councils, the interpretation of the Comforter, and a prophecy about the 'Final Testament' being hidden, as well as Christ being unsuitable for a sacrifice.
Now I understand that the Council of Nicea was to come to consensus about the teachings of Arianism, as well as inserted passages at a later Council to support the false Trinity. So I am befuddled how they come to this conclusion that the Council(s) changed the Bible to such an extent that it required a 'Final Testament' from Muhammed.
The basis I use to educate them (if they have ears to hear) is the Scripture itself. On the Comforter I am told in letters:
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"
John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"
John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."
They believe the Comforter is Muhammed, who was given direction by an Angel, hence the hidden scroll.
I pointed out that John 14:18 specifically states: "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come for you." So in later chapters when Jesus uses the pronoun 'he', I believe He is speaking of the Holy Spirit that is able to come after His final sacrifice. This initial discussion of the Comforter laid the groundwork to me, which supported His words in following chapters. (I try to validate Scripture by finding reinforcement in other Scriptures. If I am doing this wrong I would humbly appreciate any lessons in understanding God's will.)
As for the final sacrifice, the Quran tells them that Christ was another Prophet, He did not die on the cross but was taken into Heaven by God. They tell me the crucifixion and following 3 day resurrection was to fit the Bible into the Luciferian worship of the sun god and venus, (hence the dates for Christmas since this was the day when the sun 'hovered' in the sky on the horizon for 3 days before rising again.) Though I do believe the Trinity was instilled to give worship to Nimrod, his wife, and his son, (which in turn is worship unto Satan), I continually find reference in Scripture that validates the crucifixion as the beginning of the New Covenenant! Without which the Gentiles would be unable to enter into the Kingdom of God, for Christ died to save all mankind, not just the Jews. (Which is why I believe we are called Jews of Spirit, correct?) I am told that the Son of God was like David before, also begotten of God. (Psalm 2:7 is used to show that David is begotten of God.) However I show that David was created as a result of earthbound copulation, and not created by God's will by virgin birth.
The prophecy that foretells of their final testament I am told is found in Isaiah 29:11-12. "And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed: And the book is delievered to him that is not learned saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." I read the whole chapter and interpreted it as a prophecy for the times we are in now. Where people thirst for the Word of God, but are unable to find it due to the complicity of the Church and their reliance on the traditions of men; the Word is sealed to those that are learned, and the unlearned know not how to divine His will because they do not know the way to God, and therefore have not the Holy Spirit to guide them. Am I wrong in this interpretation?
I pray before Bible study and ask that the Spirit fill me to help me on my path, yet I know I am only a man and humbly seek guidance from those who have walked further with Him. Any insight would be appreciated, as well as Scripture to help me study and learn.
I feel I am nearing a point where I cease all discussion with these individuals. I respect their desire to know God, yet their denial of Christ and His sacrifice have me wondering if the Great Deceiver has found another path to draw believers away from God. Knowing the horrific life of Muhammed only reinforces that feeling. Yet if I am wrong, for I am not full of hubris to think I am correct, then I look forward to Scripture that will assist me on the path of righteousness.
I look forward to any replies. May God bless you and yours.
Beloved:
I am not sure by any thing that you write that you agree with Rays teachings or if you are here to discuss someone else's....
The people that you are talking to are spiritually blind. Like the orthodox church they only see the literal and cannot see any spiritual meaning in the Word. They are tied to the dead letters and not the living word.
If you read the sum of the sciptures it is obvious what the paracletos is and how it works. it convicts men of their sin and it is the power from God to bring men to repentance. It is also the power that works within to bring about the needed changes in spirit. As long as we are teathered to this carnal flesh no man can be perfected.
Why would Jesus say he was sending them "a physical man" ?
What would be the point?
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Mohammed may have written the Koran but what did he do on earth that demonstrated that he received his message from God. Mohamed died, he was not resurrected.
Jesus's miracles were physical but they too were a shadow...he made blind see physically, he made lame walk and he cured lepers and brought dead to life...in the physical.....but all of these things were meaningless
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
.
You have to see what God is doing spiritually, you have to walk the life spiritually, you have to be cleansed spotless, and you have to receive eternal spiritual life.
FEW are chosen to do this MANY ARE NOT.
Only a spiritual advocate/paraclete from God can assist man.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I would not waste my time talking to these people.....the most important thing for each of us to do is to study and show ourselves approved.
We need to abide in HIS WORD...to Die daily and to take up the cross and Follow Him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [/color]
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Neither the orthodox christians or the muslims do both of these.
to Those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.......
beloved
raginggaijin:
--- Quote from: Beloved on December 24, 2008, 06:54:29 PM ---I am not sure by any thing that you write that you agree with Rays teachings or if you are here to discuss someone else's....
--- End quote ---
Who are you to judge? I come to you in truth because I want clarity in these issues. This condemnation in the initial reception is not what I expected to receive. If ideas from outside of Ray's teachings are being brought here for clarification under his teachings, and it is UNWELCOME, let me know now. I was under the impression that this was a forum of fellowship. I've had enough of the closed minds and closed hearts in the Church and to receive this instills doubt.
--- Quote ---The people that you are talking to are spiritually blind. Like the orthodox church they only see the literal and cannot see any spiritual meaning in the Word. They are tied to the dead letters and not the living word.
If you read the sum of the sciptures it is obvious what the paracletos is and how it works. it convicts men of their sin and it is the power from God to bring men to repentance. It is also the power that works within to bring about the needed changes in spirit. As long as we are teathered to this carnal flesh no man can be perfected.
Why would Jesus say he was sending them "a physical man" ?
What would be the point?
--- End quote ---
Agreed. In my discussion the teachings they offer seem twisted. I am in the middle of finishing a letter to one of them when they said 'He was beaten...thats a blemish god expected them to be in physical perfect condition." I was shocked at the comment, and I truly believe that they have not the spiritual ears to hear! Christ knew no sin, so he was perfect in body and spirit!
--- Quote ---1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Mohammed may have written the Koran but what did he do on earth that demonstrated that he received his message from God. Mohamed died, he was not resurrected.
Jesus's miracles were physical but they too were a shadow...he made blind see physically, he made lame walk and he cured lepers and brought dead to life...in the physical.....but all of these things were meaningless
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
.
You have to see what God is doing spiritually, you have to walk the life spiritually, you have to be cleansed spotless, and you have to receive eternal spiritual life.
FEW are chosen to do this MANY ARE NOT.
Only a spiritual advocate/paraclete from God can assist man.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I would not waste my time talking to these people.....the most important thing for each of us to do is to study and show ourselves approved.
--- End quote ---
Good point. We are responsible for our own walk with God, not others. I appreciate you pointing that out again.
--- Quote ---We need to abide in HIS WORD...to Die daily and to take up the cross and Follow Him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [/color]
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Neither the orthodox christians or the muslims do both of these.
to Those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.......
beloved
--- End quote ---
Thank you for the Scripture. I appreciate your insight and the response, and will pray for guidance.
Beloved:
I am not sure by any thing that you write that you agree with Rays teachings or if you are here to discuss someone else's
Let's not judge. I come to you in truth because I want clarity in these issues. This condemnation in the initial reception is not what I expected to receive.
I am sorry that you felt judged, I could not really tell by your post. I apologize for this.
Your moniker is a little strange...raging foreigner/outsider? ;D I see that you live is in the UK. I will have to take that into account and watch any yankee slang. ;D
I guess the reason I responded is that I found that as a newcomer your choice of topics was intriguing. This website and forum really has very little in common with any ortodox religion (re ligone = that which binds) that is out there.
Understanding the spirit of the word indeed sets one free. Never the less there are always people who come here to the forum to discuss or debate false doctrines and we must be on guard.
I can see from you response that you are looking for Truth and I am sure that the Holy Spirit will lead you to it. We all here can deeply appreciate the fact that it is very frustrating when you find it .....that you cannot always share it with others....it is the Ezekial...scroll...sweet to swallow but bitter in the stomach.
I have read many of the argument about the Koran and the Bible but have found them all wanting...one thing for sure....their actions of hate toward others quickly quenches whatever is said. In addition is the complete lack of understanding of the spiritual, even though they may have enormous and praiseworthy zeal....like Paul did....makes everything else meaningless. My favorite thing about the Koran are the wonder names of God...but we already know all of these and......... more.
beloved
raginggaijin:
--- Quote from: Beloved on December 24, 2008, 07:46:14 PM ---I am not sure by any thing that you write that you agree with Rays teachings or if you are here to discuss someone else's
Let's not judge. I come to you in truth because I want clarity in these issues. This condemnation in the initial reception is not what I expected to receive.
I am sorry that you felt judged, I could not really tell by your post. I apologize for this.
--- End quote ---
Not a problem. I ask many questions and unfortunately text can't convey tone. I hope you did not feel offended by my remarks either. I am eager to learn and hungry for the truth, yet I am wary of the teachings of the Church and the attitudes contained therein.
--- Quote ---Your moniker is a little strange...raging foreigner/outsider? ;D I see that you live is in the UK. I will have to take that into account and watch any yankee slang. ;D
--- End quote ---
Ach, I'm in the US now, though I've spent a lot of time around the world and with clients in the UK. The handle was given to me by a close friend many years ago, for I tend to ask questions that authority didn't like being asked; always the stranger in familiar lands.
--- Quote ---I guess the reason I responded is that I found that as a newcomer your choice of topics was intriguing. This website and forum really has very little in common with any ortodox religion (re ligone = that which binds) that is out there.
--- End quote ---
True, yet it speaks Truth. I was given this link a couple years ago by an associate I work with, and being out of the Church for many years, Mr. Smith's teachings were very enlightening and answered many questions I had unanswered previously. In order to not be a burden I worked hard in study and prayer instead of asking every question I had. I apologize for showing up with a bang. >.<
God always provided what I need, and I want to be His humble servant. Mr. Smith has helped renew my faith with his discoveries, and I feel I am truely walking with God. Praise Him!
--- Quote ---Understanding the spirit of the word indeed sets one free. Never the less there are always people who come here to the forum to discuss or debate false doctrines and we must be on guard.
--- End quote ---
I take it something akin to this has happened before? I don't frequent the forums but study the teachings of Mr. Smith when I visit this site. I have perused the forums for topics that I had questions about, and they've assisted. But this recent question that came about blind-sided me, and after prayer felt it was best left to those who knew more than I.
--- Quote ---I can see from you response that you are looking for Truth and I am sure that the Holy Spirit will lead you to it. We all here can deeply appreciate the fact that it is very frustrating when you find it .....that you cannot always share it with others....it is the Ezekial...scroll...sweet to swallow but bitter in the stomach.
--- End quote ---
True, so very true. I hope that I am able to meet these lessons with humility and obedience. I've not been a good man in my life, yet now I know I have hope. :D
--- Quote ---I have read many of the argument about the Koran and the Bible but have found them all wanting...one thing for sure....their actions of hate toward others quickly quenches whatever is said. In addition is the complete lack of understanding of the spiritual, even though they may have enormous and praiseworthy zeal....like Paul did....makes everything else meaningless. My favorite thing about the Koran are the wonder names of God...but we already know all of these and......... more.
--- End quote ---
Which is why I was blind-sided. These believers don't follow the religion of Islam, and are making a peaceful path to follow God using the Quran as their guide. But the denial of Christ and His sacrifice was abhorrent to me. I had to make sure I wasn't placing another idol of the heart before God. He is my one and only God, yet I cannot deny how He sent His Son to suffer the sins of man, and allow us the chance at a righteous corpeal life, and a righteous eternal life. Many times I need Scripture to help me along this path, and He has provided. I feel this was a lesson in humility; I don't know everything and sometimes I need help.
Thank you for your kind words. I know I am with family. :)
God's blessings upon you and yours,
cjc
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version