Making Languages?

[Mbwa]

Hello Everybody!

I have a question that might be kind of strange, but I am very serious.  I e-mailed Ray about it, and he never got back to me, but I don't blame him; he's a very busy man, and now I found out he's sick.  My best wishes for him.

Anyway, I have a hobby.  I like to learn about languages and linguistics and such.  I use what I've learned and I try to construct my own language.  It will have its own grammar, sounds, etc.  There are actually quite a few of us.  Now, what I'm asking is, do you think that making languages up could be a sin?  I know humans have done it since they were around, but God apparently "confused" the human language at Babel.  Now that we humans have languages and can communicate, could it be like a mockery of God or something to be creating languages?  I know it's a strange question, no direct reference to it in the Bible, but could it be considered like 'playing God' and that might be sinful?

Now, I know that people say that with whatever you do you must glorify God.  I believe a language like this could be a great way to glorify God, one could write psalms in it or something.  But if the creation of the language was a mockery in the first place, the purpose is defeated!  I'm sorry if you think I'm wasting your time, or if this is not the right place , but like I said I am very serious.  I appreciate any advice you may offer.

Sincerely,

   Mbwa

[aqrinc]

Mbwa,

As a first post this one is strange, have you been reading any of Ray's teaching.
If you have is it making any sense to you, if not it would be a great way to use
the time you have available. Please answer my questions (seriously).

Whatever useful purpose would another language serve. As it is most people
only speak one half well so why add to the babble that already exists. Learning
the Scriptures and How to Glorify God and Edify your fellow human beings
would be of much profit it seems. Maybe Ray has not answered because he
is fully occupied being about the Father's Business of teaching the Scriptures
to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear the Word.

Since God confused the language at Babel; are you now God to fix (unconfuse it)

I Corinthians 3:19:
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: "He that
taketh the wise in their craftiness;"

george.

[Beloved]

Welcom Mbwa (is your name tag  part of your language    ?

Well you did day his was your hobby and not your life's pursuit. I do not know if this is a sin or not. We all have these carnal activities in our lives...cooking  ..biking... music... I can tell you one thing that when I saw these revelations,  it sure put everything into perspcective and I immediately lost interested in many of these things.

Hearing and seeing the things hidden in the Word of God is such an awsome privilege and for that reason I really am beginning to hate all the activieis that now interfer with it.

I can see why you are  attractied to  linguistics and language, it  is very interesting. Perhaps it will be gift that will serve you as you study the Word.  Words translated from the words written in their original language. Ray has expounded on some instances where the translators eally messed up..

The only important thing is that the spiritual meanings of the words are revealed...they are not discerned by carnal minds....so this makes it even more amazing

My only comment would be

(Col 4:5)  Be walking about [fig., Be conducting yourselves] with wisdom toward the [ones] outside, redeeming [or, making the best use of] the time.

(Col 4:6)  [Let] your* word always [be] in grace, having been seasoned with salt, [in order for you*] to know how it is necessary [for] you* to be answering each one.

I will pray that the Holy Spirit will work your interest in language into a fruitful endeavor.

Beloved

[Mbwa]

Thank you for the reply, aqr.

I have been reading Ray's teachings, and I think they make sense, yes. 

To answer your first question, I do not aim to make my created language have a specific useful purpose.  Some languages are created for people with different native languages to be able to communicate.  Mine is simply a way to unwind.  It is a hobby.  It does not take up all my time.  I do find it important to learn about the Scriptures, and try to be a good person, but is it wrong to have some fun in your spare time?  That is all my language creation is.

"Since God confused the language at Babel; are you now God to fix (unconfuse it)"

Ah.  You worry me with that question.  But, in my defense, I'm not really unconfusing it.  In the story, the humans were united by language, and God confused it so they all spoke different languages, right?  I'm not intending for a lot of people to speak my creation, it'll probably only be me.  Like I said, it's just to unwind.  I don't know if intention has anything to do with it either.  I am NOT aiming to become a god, or to compete with God.  I am a little human being, and I know it.  As I said before, could I not praise God with my created language? 

I can't really tell where you stand though.  Are you just saying that it's a waste of time, or do you think it is actually a sin.  Either way, I truly appreciate that you're willing to talk to me about this.  Honestly.  My biggest goal would be to live a Godly life in Christ, but now I feel weighed down by the temptations of youthhood.  If this hobby of mine is really that bad I will fight for the strength to give it up.  Until then I'll keep trying, and learning.  I wish you the best of luck in whatever challenges you may face.  We all have them, don't we?

Mbwa

[musicman]

I myself have created an additional language.  It is the language I speak to myself when I am diplomatically explaining with a smile, something to someone that I don't like.  It is a personal language and made up of nonsensical four letter words.  Don't think anyone would understand it though.

[aqrinc]

Mbwa,

First please forgive my bad manners; Welcome to the Forum, it is tough but All in Love.

Well said, you have answered and we do have a discourse now. As a hobby to amuse or learn no problem, you answered the part about unconfusing babel well and i understand that point now. If you think it is a sin and persist you are guilty already, if you think it is not a sin who am i to accuse. Your intention matters a whole lot more than what anyone thinks, God already knows your intent and He Alone Decides.

Please do not take my prior questions as anything other than interest in being the best helper i can be of the Brethren. I was youthful in age once now only in Spirit but there was very little that remained unchallenged by my inquisitive mind then. Any counsel i can give is going to be based now on the Scriptures since all the other methods are lacking much and finite.

My counsel is to question your beliefs and search the Scripture for the answers; they are there. Our GOD IS A Fearsomely ALL Powerful, Loving, Patient, Kind, Merciful, Graceful and Longsuffering GOD. HE Through Our Lord Jesus Christ Is Bringing us (humanity) into HIS Family as Begotten children. Spend a few years contemplating and living by this knowledge and you will be well prepared for the Godly life in Christ Jesus that you seek. Instead of trying ask God for guidance then search the Words Of Scripture for All your answers they are there. Lastly, thanks for the wish for me but luck has no part in our life or challenges; with the Grace of GOD through His Faith All will be well in due time.

Job 32:8:
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.

II Timothy 3:16:
All Scripture is inspired by God, and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for discipline in righteousness;

Faith, Love and Patience in Jesus Christ young Brother.

george.

[Mbwa]

aqr:  Bad manners?  No, this is a question concerning a possibly sinful activity.  I would be more offended, or at least dissappointed, if you were to go all light and just give me what you think I want to hear.

"If you think it is a sin and persist you are guilty already, if you think it is not a sin who am i to accuse."

I do not know if it is a sin, though.  It seems very innocent at first glance, but after looking at it as "playing God" I had my doubts.  I came here because I knew that many people here would know the Scriptures much better than I, and would give a better answer.  And what if I come to the conclusion that it is not a sin, but it turns out to be?

To the rest of your post:  Thank you for the encouraging words.  I will definitely take more time to familiarize my self with the Scriptures, it seems like that will be highly profitable. (spiritually and mentally of course)  And about the 'wish me luck' part, yes, I now realize it is not luck you will need.  I guess it's just an expression, and I didn't really think about it that much.  I wish you the best through the Grace of God.

Beloved:  Mbwa is actually Swahili for 'dog.'


"I can tell you one thing that when I saw these revelations,  it sure put everything into perspcective and I immediately lost interested in many of these things."

What do you mean by this?

I appreciate your kind words.  I have actually considered learning Hebrew or some other language to read the original Scriptures.  That seems like something that could be a good investement of time.  As far as my constructed language, I guess I can look at it as honoring Creation.  I am fascinated by language, and I am not trying to improve it, I am just expressing my wonder in it.

musicman:  Interesting.  I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't ask you for details, but it's cool that somebody else here has done something similar.  (As long as it is not a sin, obviously, of which I'm still unsure)

[musicman]

No, that was just a joke.  I do wonder what your purpose is for wanting to invent another language though.  Who else will speak it?  Do you believe a whole new language can just be created?  I would think that any new language would have to be similar to your first language with slight differences.  Obviously the English language was a much different language than the Latin of old, but that was in an attempt to make it difficult for the French to understand.  Since the disruption of languages at Babel, I would say most languages branch off of an original, as the Latin ones did.  Obviously, American English is not the same as Brittish English and Jamaican English is way different than ours.  In fact, southern English is different than northern and so forth.  So how is it that you intend to form a new language and who will speak it with you?  And what is your motivation.  Will it help you make a living?  Is it a lost art that will bring you and others aesthetic pleasure?  I don't know how this falls in line with God.  If you (and I do mean you) feel that forming a new language honors God, then go right ahead and do it.  If it's for your own uniqueness however, you may want to reconsider.  Work it out with God.  Best wishes.

[Dave in Tenn]

Hey.  I am no bible scholar, but this may help.

You are asking, it seems, if there is a law against your hobby.  I get almost all my understanding of the Law from Paul's letter to the Romans.  After a long exposition, he continues in Rom. 7:14 ."...For we know that the Law is Spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin."

That's the assumption that Paul makes regarding his own--and OUR--understanding.  We do know that the Law is Spiritual, don't we??  Yes, we are all still carnal, sold under sin.  We marry, we earn a living, we eat, we bathe.  None of those things adds to or takes away from our righteousness.  Indeed, we don't have any righteousness.  Surely there are things which are sin.  Surely there are things that are NOT sin which we can make into sin.  And surely, there are 'acts of righteousness' which in reality are among the worst sins.  Just as surely, there are things which are neither sin nor things we make into sin.  Everything not of Faith is sin...can it also be true that everything OF faith--of a life lived under the Kingship of God--is NOT sin?

I wish more people had an interest in languages.  We are designed to understand and communicate in words, yet words themselves fail to adequately describe, define, and do justice to God and Spirit.  As Ray has pointed out, anybody who knows more than one language knows the benefits and pitfalls of translation.  Perhaps you will know better than most as you study linguistics this way.  

The more we understand the words of God, the better we understand Him and His creation.  Intellectually, you are in good company.  I'm sure you know that The Lord of the Rings grew organically out of Tolkein's interest in creating languages.  I personally see your endeavor as being good mental excercise concerning the nature of language itself.  There's value in that.  Not all languages are ancient or have ancient origins.  Langauge itself evolves, not just idiom.  Tagalog, anybody?  

But I am not your Lord and won't judge you right or wrong.  I'd encourage you to not be concerned about intellectual 'tithing of mint and anise and cummin' as long as you don't 'omit the weightier matters of the law:  judgement, mercy and faith.'   Matthew 23:23.  I think that's what 'righteousness greater than the Pharisees' is all about.

[Beloved]

I said "I can tell you one thing that when I saw these revelations,  it sure put everything into perspective and I immediately lost interested in many of these things."

You asked What do you mean by this?

What I meant was when God opened my eyes to Him, all the things that I thought were interesting and important, seemed insignificant and futile.
The Song of Solomon...vanity vanity echoed.  What became important was

Mat 6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

That is why I agree that the things we do are not worthless, it is the intent of why we do things...for our glory or for His GLORY. God give us our desires for a reason and for His purpose.

Mbwa thanks for interpreting your name...in the US South, they have a peculiar accent and would pronounce the word Dog... with almost three syllables and say ...  Daawg   

beloved

[Mbwa]

musicman:

"No, that was just a joke.  I do wonder what your purpose is for wanting to invent another language though.  Who else will speak it?  Do you believe a whole new language can just be created?  I would think that any new language would have to be similar to your first language with slight differences."

Oh.  Heh heh. 

I wasn't really intending for anybody to speak it but me.  And yes, I believe a whole language can be created.  There are forums devoted to making languages.  A few people can actually speak theirs quite fluently.  My language will not be similar to English, that's why I learn about other languages, so it can be different.

"So how is it that you intend to form a new language and who will speak it with you?  And what is your motivation.  Will it help you make a living?  Is it a lost art that will bring you and others aesthetic pleasure?"

I won't go into detail about the process, but usually you start off with the sounds it will have, make up some basic words, do some grammar, and just try and translate stories and expand it.  I don't think anybody else will speak it but me.  My motivation?  It's fun.  It's mentally stimulating.  I won't make a living off of it; it's a hobby, I don't want it to be work, and if I'm making money from it it seem less like personal art and more like a product.  I don't exactly know what you mean by 'lost art,' but it is for aesthetic pleasure.

"I don't know how this falls in line with God.  If you (and I do mean you) feel that forming a new language honors God, then go right ahead and do it.  If it's for your own uniqueness however, you may want to reconsider.  Work it out with God.  Best wishes."

I don't know if it's the language itself that honors God, but what I can do with the language to honor God.  What I've been getting from this thread is that it's just a hobby, so intention matters greatly.  My original concern was that it was like a mockery of Creation or something.  Not something humans should be doing now?

[Mbwa]

Dave in Tenn:  Thanks for your reply.

"Everything not of Faith is sin...can it also be true that everything OF faith--of a life lived under the Kingship of God--is NOT sin?"

I might be misunderstanding you here.  So when I take my dog for a walk without God in mind, I'm sinning?  When I watch TV?  Read secular books?  Again, you probably had a broader scope in mind; if you would be so kind, could you please clear this up for me?

"I wish more people had an interest in languages.  We are designed to understand and communicate in words, yet words themselves fail to adequately describe, define, and do justice to God and Spirit."

You say that words fail to describe God.  Yes, words are such arbitrary little things if you think about it.  One benefit of making a language is that you can do your best to fix this, though.  When we try to describe something, we are limited, as you said, by the language we speak.  I can create words for the things I think best describe how God feels to me.  When I pray, talk to Him, whatever, those words will be there.  They still won't be perfect, but they will define my personal relationship with God.

"The more we understand the words of God, the better we understand Him and His creation.  Intellectually, you are in good company.  I'm sure you know that The Lord of the Rings grew organically out of Tolkein's interest in creating languages.  I personally see your endeavor as being good mental excercise concerning the nature of language itself.  There's value in that.  Not all languages are ancient or have ancient origins.  Langauge itself evolves, not just idiom.  Tagalog, anybody?"

Yes, I am familiar with Tolkien's languages.  He was a Christian himself, wasn't he?  And yes, languages do evolve.  The languages we speak today are waaaaaaaaay different from the ones centuries ago, decades even, as I believe someone here mentioned.  It evolves quite quickly, actually.  So, have humans not been creating languages since the beginning of time? 

"But I am not your Lord and won't judge you right or wrong.  I'd encourage you to not be concerned about intellectual 'tithing of mint and anise and cummin' as long as you don't 'omit the weightier matters of the law:  judgement, mercy and faith.'   Matthew 23:23.  I think that's what 'righteousness greater than the Pharisees' is all about"

.

When I make a language, I am creating.  And God is the Creator.  Humans could, as in Babel, choose to create away from God, and challenge Him, oppose Him.  That is not what I am doing.  Other Christian language-makers I've talked to say they are creating right alongside Him, honoring Creation.  I don't know if this makes sense to you, but I've come to the conclusion that language is a human thing.  What I choose to do with my language matters most.  And I'm not going to use it for evil, I can tell you that right now.
  So I'm going for it.  I'm going to make a language, and I'm going to honor God.  Maybe when I get a psalm or something translated I'll put it in my signature.

I want to thank everyone who posted for helping me make my decision, and for being so welcoming.  I'll probably post wherever else I think I may be able to help, so I'll see y'all around, hopefully.  Thanks again,

Mbwa

[Dave in Tenn]

Rom 14:17  For God's kingdom does not consist of food and drink, but of righteousness, peace, and joy produced by the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18  For the person who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by people.
Rom 14:19  Therefore, let us keep on pursuing those things that bring peace and that lead to building one another up.
Rom 14:20  Do not destroy God's work for the sake of food. Everything is clean, but it is wrong to make another person fall because of what you eat.
Rom 14:21  The right thing to do is to avoid eating meat, drinking wine, or doing anything else that makes your brother stumble or become upset or weak.
Rom 14:22  As for the faith you do have, have it as your own conviction before God. How blessed is the person who has no reason to condemn himself because of what he approves!
Rom 14:23  But the person who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not act in faith; and anything that is not done in faith is sin.

That's the scripture. 

To me, sin is less about what we do, and more about what we are.  Religion is about making rules. whether we recieve those through our upbringing or make them up ourselves.  Living life under the Kingship of God is a relationship.  Some things are clear...other things come into focus only with time and failure.  Living life this way is what is pleasing to God.  Even the heathen can manage to not commit murder...most without even trying very hard.     It takes the Spirit of God to love our enemy's though.  That's just an example of what I'm seeking to say.

So, yes...you can sin while walking your dog, even though there's not a thing wrong with walking your dog.  Tommorrow, however, it may be the Lord's will that walking your dog is NOT a sin, and the next day it IS.  Putting the focus on 'to walk or not to walk' is not a life pleasing to God.  All he wants is our obedience, not our opinion on dog-walking.     I hope that helps.   

[cherokee]

Hey Mbwa,

Was rereading Ray's paper on "Speaking in Unknown Tongues" this morning, and i think it would give you alot to think about re guarding any questions you have about making up your own languages. You should read it before you go ahead and start on that new language as it will give you more insight into speaking in languages spiritually rather than physically.

Here is the link to it: http://bible-truths.com/tongues.htm

Only given in Love,
Suzie