GOD CAUSES EVERYTHING

[geokuhns]

Hi everybody.

I'm looking for help on the subject of "God Causes Everything." Before coming across Ray's teachings 11 months ago I was taught by the A.E. Knoch group (Jeff Priddy) that God causes everything including the rape and beheading of a little boy. (John Walsh's son). I had a problem with that. Then I recently heard Ray say on an audio that God does not cause man to sin. James 1:13-15. I was thrilled to hear Ray say that but it is still difficult to connect the dots on this subject. So here are my thoughts and the dots I have connected and if I am wrong please help me to understand this difficult subject.

1) God is the cause of everything that has or will happen in this world.
2) God is responsible for everything that has or will happen in this world and that is why He sent His Son to pay the price for forgiveness of sin.
3) The sinner is accountable for his/her sins but not responsible. God is responsible.
4) Even though God did not directly cause the crime against John Walsh's son He knew from the beginning (Isa. 46:9, 10) that it would happen (Prov. 16:4) and could have intervened and stopped it if He wanted to.
5) God has caused everything that has or will happen because of the laws He has put into place from the beginning. These laws run the universe and all human reactions.

Comments welcomed.
George

[aqrinc]

Hi George Kuhns,

Read this excerpt below or click the link and read the entire transcript; your answers are there and in other studies on the forum.

'FREE WILL' IS AN OXYMORON . . . . . . Biblestudy Jan. 2007

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.msg40740.html#msg40740

It's amazing, even when people are educated that this can not exist, like a magician's trick, they still go out from this Bible study and think some how they do have free will anyway, because it APPEARS that way.  I mean the magician really did pull a rabbit out of a hat, and you know it's a trick, he showed you how he did it.  But when he does it, it still 'appears' like he did something magical and you believe it. 

Now here we get down to an ethical point, that I think is quite worthy. 
Dr. Wegner said, "We worry that explaining evil condones it.  We have to maintain our outrage at Hitler."
Did you get that?  He said, that if we explain the true cause of evil, people will think we condone it.  We must maintain our outrage at Hitler.

How many emails have I gotten just like that.  'Oh your saying, so Hitler is going to be up in heaven with us?'  'Oh really, nice Ray, and I suppose Sadam Hussin will be having tea with us and taking the last supper with us.'  You know they get real sarcastic like that.  Why?  Because they want to be better.  They want to be better than Hitler, they want to be able to always think that Hitler made choices to do bad and he's going to suffer for all eternity for it.  And they say, 'I on the other hand, I choose Christ and I'm going to be saved.'  So people feel this way. 

I don't mince words any more.  The reason Christians feel this way is they despise the Word of God.  You may say, 'well that's pretty strong, Ray.  Maybe they just are deceived about it or confused.'  No!  Sooner or later people come to the point where they are confronted with the Word of God and they either eaccept it or reject it.  That is a choice, we have that ability.  But it's based on some cause, what we feel, what we know, what we see, what we hear.  The mind can process data and make a choice.  The Bible doesn't say you can't do that.  I've never said you can't do that, and even my cats can do that. 
That is not free moral agency, however. 

Now in James he says if you break any one of the laws or commandments of God, you're guilty of all.
James 2:10  "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."

Now he didn't say if you steal, you killed somebody.  He didn't say if you steal you kill, no, he didn't say that.  He said if you break one your 'guilty' of all.  How so? 
He said because you are a 'law breaker.'  There are laws, and if you break any one, you are a law breaker.  Well what if you break that one, you're are a law breaker, well what if I break this one, you're a law breaker, ok.  This is not rocket science. 
God has laws, when you break one, guess what you are?  You're a law breaker!  It doesn't matter if you break the first or the second or the forth, you're a law breaker.  That's what you are. 

Now, God says He's no respecter of persons.  So if somebody breaks a big law and somebody breaks a little law, if He can forgive the breaker of the little law, can He forgive the breaker of the big law?  Well this is where it gets kind of fuzzy for some people.  Because a lot of people don't think they have broke many of the laws. 

You know I have heard ministers tell the audience on international TV, the sins of their youth.  I have never heard one yet say that he likes to suck another man's body parts, never.  Never have I heard of someone saying that he use to lust after little children.  Never have I heard that, never. 
Here is what I have heard maybe a dozen times, from the top leading evangelist in the world, here are their sins.  'Well when I was young, you know 18 or 21, I was a little aggressive.  You know I had a lot of vanity, about wanting to accomplish things.'  So that's it?  That was your sin?  'Yea that was really vanity on my part.'  Wow, that's not really too much to repent of, is it.  I mean that's something you could tell the whole world about and not even be embarrassed (chuckle).  You see what I saying?

I'm not saying that every man has homosexual tendencies or every man slapped his mother at some time or every man lusted after a child.  I'm not saying that! 
I just thank God there are certain sins that I just never was tempted to have or partake of.  I'm so thankful for that.  But if you think that I'm so stupid, that I can't see that under the same circumstances, of whoever you want to take, say Manson, that I can't see and know and understand in my very heart and being, that if I was born in his family under those conditions and circumstances, I would have been Charles Manson.  This is the thing that people will not come to grips with.  That's why these people say, 'Oh yes I was a little aggressive.' 
That's what Herbert Armstrong said, that was his sin.  He said his sin was being too enthusiastic to succeed in life.  Oh what a horrible sin that is.  But he didn't tell us the problem that he had with his daughter, did he.  No, that had to come out later, you see.  And don't condemn Mr. Armstrong, for that even, other than it is a horrible sin. 
You and I under the same circumstances, would have done the same thing.  Why can't we see that?

george.

[Marlene]

Hello, That, explains it well George. My Mother has a hard time with this. I don't like what they do, but I now try and look at maybe what there life as a child was like. I often, wondered if someone is a homosexual because they did not have a good relationship with there father. Same for women. It could not be either way, but now I just let God who knows all judge it. We know that we have man made laws that judge them. If, you murder you may be put to death or life in prison. God warns us about mans judgements. They have laws set up and we obey or we are punished. But, any of us could do anything we are so wicked.

In His Love,
Marlene

[smeacham]

My mother became a baptized church-goer several years ago.  I actually get a kick out of telling her that I've broken all ten of the Ten Commandments.  She thinks I'm absolutely crazy, anyway, about everything I believe and do now.  She can't decide if I'm Jewish or Atheist...it just doesn't compute.

1. I've worshiped other gods, both natural and supernatural
2. I've made idols, both in my heart and with consumer goods
3. I've misused God's name, both by abusing it in speech and by imagining Him to be something other than who He really is
4. I've broken the Sabbath, both under the Law and under the Law of the Spirit
5. I've failed to honor my parents (she believes me on this one!)
6. I've killed, by hating others
7. I've committed adultery, by looking more than once
8. I've stolen
9. I've lied
10. I've coveted

Cheers,
Steve

[legoman]

Hi,

I have trouble with this too sometimes.

God is operating everything according to his will (Eph 1:11).

God doesn't directly cause or force us to sin - but isn't it fair to say God causes us to sin, at least indirectly?

The direct cause of our sin is our own heart - our thoughts and lusts and desires.

But God designed us to be spiritually weak - he designed us to have those thoughts and lusts and desires.

When you look at the big picture, you have to admit that God intended the world to be exactly the way it is now.  Which means God intended for there to be murders and many other wrongs that would be done, and some of those wrongs would be done to children.  God intended it all!  Its overwhelming, and we can't understand it all, but if God is all-knowing and all-seeing, operating all according to his will, then it must be that way.  And it must be for a good purpose.

The only conclusion that can be made is that God causes sin, along with everything else, for a good purpose.

I don't see how we can say God doesn't cause sin, when we know God causes everything.

Please help me out here if I am way off base.

Kevin

[legoman]

Here is another excerpt from Ray's free will series which is saying the same thing.  God is the ultimate cause of all (this would include sin and all the crimes of the earth):




CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?

Even if we were to accept Mr. Robertson's theory that God had nothing to do with this Christmas tsunami, we would still be forced to concede that "God allowed it." That is, in fact, the terminology that is used in most discussions of this subject—Why did God "allow" it? Why does God "allow" this, that, and the other thing?

Allow, allow, allow. That is the mind-set of most discussions whether they are religious or secular—Why did God "allow" it? Surely no one doubts God's ability to stop any or all such catastrophes if He so desired? A man in an Atlanta Court House murdered three people. Since God obviously did not stop it, why then did God "allow" it?   Would you really like to know why God "allowed" those murders and why He allowed the Christmas tsunami?

And not only why did He allow this tsunami, but all tsunamis, and typhoons, and hurricanes, and floods, and tornadoes, and violent thunderstorms, and rock slides and mud slides, and avalanches, and volcanoes, and earthquakes, and forest fires, and droughts, and famines, and diseases, wars and holocausts, and (not just the killing 3 people in Atlanta), but all deaths? Do you really want to know why God "allows" these things? Are you sure you are ready for God's answer to this most profound mystery in all creation?

I am reminded of the film, "A Few Good Men." In a dramatic court scene Tom Cruise demands of the witness: "I want the TRUTH!" To which Jack Nicholson shouts back: "You can't HANDLE the TRUTH!!"

This is what I fear is the situation here. People think they want the truth, but they can't handle the truth. Very few indeed want the whole Truth: the whole counsel of God. And most of those who have heard it have been highly offended by it. Often they killed the messengers who brought God's message of Truth. That's just how offensive the Truth of God is to the carnal mind. I have a drawer full of emails that speak volumes against God's Truth.

But I know that there are a few chosen of God to whom the Truth is not offensive. For those few I will continue. As Joan Rivers used to say: "Can we talk?" Are your kids in bed? Can we talk? The remainder of this series on free will is not for the immature or faint of heart.

Okay then, back to our question: Why does God "allow" all of the pain, suffering, disasters, and even mass killing of the innocent to happen? Actually, the question is not even a legitimate question because God does not "allow" any of these disasters to happen. Here then is one of the greatest truths in all the world and of all Scripture:

God does not "allow" anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!

If a person is able to prevent a crime (let's say without any expense or harm to himself) but doesn't, he is no better than the one who commits the crime.  So now the question is: "Where is Jesus Christ when all such crimes are committed?" Is Jesus no more powerful or responsible than the god Baal?

    "About noontime, Elijah began mocking them [the priests of Baal]. You'll have to shout louder than that; he scoffed, to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened!" (I Kings 18:27, The Living Bible).

No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is "spirit": "Now the Lord is that SPIRIT..." (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.

Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?

Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: "Well, we don't know why, but God allowed it." God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.

I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He "allow" it?

You say, "Well, nobody knows the answer to that!" Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don't want the Scriptural answer. We don't want the truth. We can't handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

[mharrell08]

I don't see how we can say God doesn't cause sin, when we know God causes everything.

Hey Kevin,

I've looked through this thread twice and I didn't see where anyone said that God does not cause sin. I've seen where it was stated mankind is 'accountable' for their sins and God is ultimately responsible, but I didn't see anything contrary to what you stated. I think you've pretty much got it though.


Marques

[legoman]

Hi Marques,

Thanks for the clarification.  I sometimes wonder if I've got it figured out (and obviously I don't have everything figured out), but at least with the "problem of evil" I think I have a reasonable understanding...

I was responding to the OP where George said:

"Then I recently heard Ray say on an audio that God does not cause man to sin."

I believe Ray was meaning God does not cause man to sin directly.  However, God does cause man to sin indirectly:   by how he created our desires, by using circumstances, by sending evil spirts, and even using Satan himself.

Its not an easy topic for sure.


--


I discuss this on other boards occasionally and you get some downright nasty responses.  Here is a recent response I got:

"What you are saying makes God the author of sin, and that cannot be!"

And this:

"This is a twisted lie straight from hell and I say that with the utmost respect. The respect that won't allow Gods character and nature to be impugned..."


And then this one (in a mocking tone):

"Oh No!
Even 'The Devil Made Me Do It'
Is A Better Lie Than 'See God Made Me So Bad! See, See' "


The funny thing is the last response was a lot closer to the truth than he realized.  God did make us this way and the devil does tempt us, but I suppose most people think its only our free will...

Kevin

[aqrinc]

Hi Kevin, George kuhns, Marques,

I have listened to the Audio many times and read the transcripts several times also. The understanding
i get is that: God Is Responsible (Creator Lord Of All) we are accountable (sinner carnal subject to sinning).

God does not "allow" anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!

This is a hard truth to swallow and bitter; but then it is much easier to understand this Scripture:

For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of
Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall
be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we
know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

george.

[legoman]

Yep, 100% agree aqr.

Kevin

[mharrell08]

Yep, 100% agree aqr.

Kevin

Ditto 


Marques

[geokuhns]

I think we are starting to get to the heart of my original post. I think some misunderstood my post. For example I do believe that mankind does not have free will and  I do believe that God is a sovereign God and is the cause of all events in the world - past and future. 

I agree with Kevin's post. He states that God does not cause man to sin directly. I believe that to be true. God has created the human nature and the circumstances that can lead one to commit sin. That is why God is responsible. And as I stated in my original post God created all the laws that govern the operating of the universe and the operating of human nature. Therefore God has known from the beginning of time every human event that would occur because of His wisdom and laws.

Again I repeat the following statements that I believe to be true. If any are not please respond.

1) God is the cause of everything that has or will happen in this world either directly or indirectly.

2) God is responsible for everything that has or will happen in this world and that is why He sent His Son to pay the price for forgiveness of sin.

3) The sinner is accountable for his/her sins but not responsible. God is responsible.

4) Even though God did not directly cause the crime against John Walsh's son He knew from the beginning (Isa. 46:9, 10) that it would happen (Prov. 16:4) and could have intervened and stopped it if He wanted to.

5) God has caused everything that has or will happen because of the laws He has put into place from the beginning. These laws run the universe and all human reactions and as a result God "Declares the end from the beginning." Isa. 46:10.

6) Mankind does not have a free will.

7) God is a sovereign God.

God will cause the Steelers to win the Super Bowl. 

[smeacham]

Yes.

[mharrell08]

I think we are starting to get to the heart of my original post. I think some misunderstood my post. For example I do believe that mankind does not have free will and  I do believe that God is a sovereign God and is the cause of all events in the world - past and future. 

I agree with Kevin's post. He states that God does not cause man to sin directly. I believe that to be true. God has created the human nature and the circumstances that can lead one to commit sin. That is why God is responsible. And as I stated in my original post God created all the laws that govern the operating of the universe and the operating of human nature. Therefore God has known from the beginning of time every human event that would occur because of His wisdom and laws.

Again I repeat the following statements that I believe to be true. If any are not please respond.

1) God is the cause of everything that has or will happen in this world either directly or indirectly.

2) God is responsible for everything that has or will happen in this world and that is why He sent His Son to pay the price for forgiveness of sin.

3) The sinner is accountable for his/her sins but not responsible. God is responsible.

4) Even though God did not directly cause the crime against John Walsh's son He knew from the beginning (Isa. 46:9, 10) that it would happen (Prov. 16:4) and could have intervened and stopped it if He wanted to.

5) God has caused everything that has or will happen because of the laws He has put into place from the beginning. These laws run the universe and all human reactions and as a result God "Declares the end from the beginning." Isa. 46:10.

6) Mankind does not have a free will.

7) God is a sovereign God.

God will cause the Steelers to win the Super Bowl. 

#4 is off-base...God causes all things...check out Ray's paper that Kevin comments from; Ray goes into much more detail regarding this. Also, the Lake of Fire series on free-will (4 papers total) go into great detail too. Saying 'directly' makes no difference as God is the cause of all. "...him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" [Eph 1:11]. To say that God does not 'directly' cause evil & sin is the same as saying it happens by chance. Though we choose to sin because of our carnal nature, we didn't create our carnal nature or have a choice in the matter. God 'caused' all to have this carnal nature in order to have mercy on us all. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." [Rom 11:32]

Just a heads up for whoever this may help: Even though Ray has papers and bible studies that have one title and are about that one subject; Ray touches on a number of other subjects throughout. For short example, his paper titled 'Fool, Hypocrites, Snakes' is about how Jesus spoke and taught in his earthly ministry...but later in the paper, you'll find a section about tithing. Even though Ray has a tithing paper, he will touch on other subjects as well in similar fashion.


Thanks,

Marques


P.S.  And no, the Steelers will not win the Superbowl...God has 'caused' them to win enough as it is...

[legoman]

Hi Marques,

Yes I think using the words "directly" or "indirectly" is just semantics, and ultimately God "directly" causes everything (as has been repeated throughout this thread).

As you suggest, God "directly" caused us to have our sinful carnal nature so he could "indirectly" cause us to sin.

Stating it like that makes it sound like God didn't know what would happen.  "Hm, maybe I'll give the humans a sinful nature and see if they don't sin..."  LOL not likely.  God directly created us the way he wanted to so that we would do exactly what he wanted us to do.

Its all of God regardless if you think God calls the shots "directly" or "indirectly".  Just like the lying spirits God sent out... God sent them out to do what he wanted done, not just so God could "wash his hands" of the matter of evil.

I think we just use the words "directly" & "indirectly" to help our finite human minds understand, and to help sanitize our image of God a bit.

Kevin

[WhoAmI]

My mother became a baptized church-goer several years ago.  I actually get a kick out of telling her that I've broken all ten of the Ten Commandments.  She thinks I'm absolutely crazy, anyway, about everything I believe and do now.  She can't decide if I'm Jewish or Atheist...it just doesn't compute.

1. I've worshiped other gods, both natural and supernatural
2. I've made idols, both in my heart and with consumer goods
3. I've misused God's name, both by abusing it in speech and by imagining Him to be something other than who He really is
4. I've broken the Sabbath, both under the Law and under the Law of the Spirit
5. I've failed to honor my parents (she believes me on this one!)
6. I've killed, by hating others
7. I've committed adultery, by looking more than once
8. I've stolen
9. I've lied
10. I've coveted

Cheers,
Steve

I like that. More people should realize they have broke all the commandments, only then maybe can they start actually living them.

[legoman]

Continuing on with the "We are accountable but God is responsible" theme...

Here is a verse that shows we will be accountable:
Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

But is there a verse that plainly say God is responsible for all?

Its definitely implied, as God is the creator of all, declared the beginning from the end (Isaiah 46:10) and works all according to his will (Eph 1:11, 1 Cor 12:6).

Anyone know of a verse where it plainly says "God is responsible"?  That would be helpful to show people who don't believe it.  I suppose Romans 11:32 is applicable as well.

Cheers,
Kevin

[aqrinc]

Kevin,

See if any of these Scriptures help, there are a lot more you can use these as markers to work with.

Psalms 10:13:
In what does the wicked irritate God? He has said in his heart, Thou wilt not require [accountability].

I Peter 4:5:
the same shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Ezekiel 28:2:
"Son of man, tell the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Almighty LORD says: In your arrogance you say, "I'm a god. I sit on God's throne in the sea." But you're only human and not a god, although you think you are a god.

Ezekiel 34:31:
And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, [are] men, [and] I [am] your God, said the Lord GOD.:

Isaiah 14:24:
The LORD of the hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:

Ephesians:1: 9-11
9-having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself, 10-that in the dispensation of the fulfillment of the times he might restore all things by the Christ, both those which are in heaven and those which are on earth,
11-in him in whom likewise we have obtained an inheritance, having had [the way] marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will,

george.

[Kat]

Hi Kevin,

To me this passage clearly shows God's sovereignty and that He is the cause of all things.

Eph 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11-12 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[WhoAmI]

Hi Kevin,

To me this passage clearly shows God's sovereignty and that He is the cause of all things.

Eph 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11-12 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


[/quote

Didn't you mean "according to the counsel of mankind" ? LOL Sorry just makes me laugh when I read that verse because I realize how mankind is so ignorant and so full of pride. Part of knowing Christ is to be knocked off you high horse! You ride in as Saul and get turned into Paul. It's so good to be humbled. Humble us Lord.