> General Discussions
Fathers on earth?
aqrinc:
Rob,
Why play devils advocate; that is a dangerous game, the devil does not need your help to create
havoc with the flock. These are some of the scriptures you quoted. What is wrong with any of the
word usage here; no one is expressing reverence for the person being addressed here. More the
expression is one of someone guarding weaker ones as opposed to demanding Worship.
I Samuel 7:3:
And Samuel said to all the house of Israel, saying, If you are returning to Jehovah with all your heart,
put aside the alien gods from among you, and the Ashtoreths. And prepare your heart to Jehovah,
and serve Him only, and He will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines.
Matthew 4:10:
Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it has been written: "You shall worship the Lord your God,
and you shall serve Him only." Deut. 6:13
Luke 4:8:
And answering, to him, Jesus said, Get behind Me, Satan! For it has been written: "You shall worship
the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."
Are the Scriptures saying not to use the word Father; or Admonishing not to reverence any human
rather To Worship Only God. Nowhere in these Scriptures are the Apostles saying to worship them.
Quite to the contrary; they are exhorting the brethren, to focus on The Lord Jesus Christ
1 John: 13-17
13-Fathers, I write to you because you have known Him from the beginning. I write to you, young men,
because you overcome the evil one. I write to you, young ones, because you have known the Father.
14-Fathers, I have written to you because you have known Him from the beginning. I have written to you,
young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
15-Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
16-because all that which is in the world: the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17-And the world is passing away, and its lust. But the one doing the will of God abides forever.
1Cor: 4: 14-16
14-I do not write these things shaming you, but warning you as my beloved children.
15-For if you should have myriads of teachers in Christ, yet not many fathers; for I fathered you in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
16-Because of this, I urge you, be imitators of me.
Just my 2 cents, hope it helps.
george. :)
hillsbororiver:
I believe we are able to discern the difference between addressing an elder (whether it be in age or position) with a term of respect or at least acknowledgement that the person being addressed is senior to the addressee.
Haven't we all called someone who is a mentor or older or more experienced "sir" does that mean we revere them or only that we respect their wisdom? Haven't we (men at least) been addressed as "son" when being instructed or advised by an elder or someone who is in a postion of authority?
Kneeling before a priest, kissing the ring of a bishop or pope is quite a different story though as Peter demonstrated in Acts;
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
There are many other things that the Catholics teach that are blatently unbiblical, too many to list but here is one;
The Catholic church forbids priests to marry, on what authority? Peter (whom they claim is the first pope) was married.
Mat 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Mar 1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.
Luk 4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.
What does Paul say about the freedom to marry?
1 Cor 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
As well as;
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
The part above about "one wife" I am sure means not to have more than one rather than meaning a bishop, teacher or leader must have one. Look at the following verses for even more clarity on this;
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Peace,
Joe
P.S. This post was not intended to denigrate all Catholics, I grew up a Catholic and there were many sincere folks I knew who did their best with the knowledge they were given, that includes quite a few family members as well. I do have serious problems with their doctrines and traditions though.
judith collier:
Hillsborovov,1st Cor.7,8 I believe this is where the Catholic Church got the idea. And most likely that "forbidden to marry" was meant for all, men and women, it doesn't say specifically who an not especially for the apostles. And the meat thing, well, we used to give up meat on Fridays but no more and it was taught as a little sacrifice for God. Just for the record. Judy
hillsbororiver:
Hi Judy,
I grew up a Catholic and am old enough to remember the no meat on Friday command, unfortunately I did not like fish until I was a teen and by that time this command had been rescinded.
Let's read 1Cor 7 and look carefully at the words;
1 Corinthians 7
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
There are couple things to take note of here, first Paul writes "I speak this by permission, and not of commandment." Could it be that Paul was speaking through a multi experienced observation? Taking note of the difficulty involved in balancing family commitments with doing the work of the Lord?
Apparently he felt strongly that it was less conflicting to devote oneself to total servitude to the Lord if one did not have family concerns, it was better, not a commandment that must be followed.
The bottom line is that the Catholic church forbids marriage, it is not merely a suggestion from an experienced evangelist but a direct command that is in direct conflict with His Word.
The early church had no such directive or tradition, it was not until they started amassing fortune and property that the hierarchies did not want "their" fortunes to be diluted and lost through inheritance. It was greed that motivated this directive from Rome.
Peace,
Joe
deftarchangel:
Are the Scriptures saying not to use the word Father; or Admonishing not to reverence any human
rather To Worship Only God. Nowhere in these Scriptures are the Apostles saying to worship them.
Quite to the contrary; they are exhorting the brethren, to focus on The Lord Jesus Christ
You hit the nail on the head, George, question-wise. That’s basically what I want to know. Did Christ forbid calling anyone ‘father,’ or did He merely forbid regarding someone as taking the role of ‘spiritual father’ in one’s life? Is it the act itself, or is it merely about attitude, or both?
See, the thing is, I’m just not comfortable addressing someone as ‘father’ if they aren’t my biological father, or God. And even then, I still call my biological father “dad.” Not because of Christ’s command, but just because that’s how it worked out. I don’t even call Christ ‘Father,’ because that isn’t appropriate either. But I don’t know how to react should I ever come across someone who prefers being addressed as Father. Actually, looking a few months down the line, I may be put into a situation where this issue may come up. What do I say? Even in the military, chaplains are commonly referred to as “padre” (which is just Spanish for ‘father’). It’s not an official title, but it’s how they are commonly addressed.
I suppose there are quite a number of priests and chaplains who don’t make that big of a deal about it and won’t insist on it, and therefore in a lot of cases, it is perhaps a non-issue. But I guess it’s the principle of the thing for me. Why do I feel so weird for doing it? Why is it such an issue for me? Am I making a mountain out of a molehill here? It’s not like I worship the priest/chaplain and see him as a replacement for God, or even acknowledge his spiritual superiority to me. I can respect his knowledge and experience, but he’s human, and a sinner…..just like me. At the same time, I don’t want to appear disrespectful and rude for not addressing him properly. And why don’t I feel weird about addressing a Jewish teacher as ‘rabbi,’ or a martial arts instructor as ‘master’? I feel almost duplicitous or hypocritical in that case.
I don’t know…..this one’s hurting my brain just thinking about it. ??? Does anyone else out there run into this problem in regards to addressing someone as ‘father’? How do you get around it, or do you just acquiesce and go along with it, knowing in your heart and mind that you don’t regard them as your spiritual father? I know God won’t strike me down for doing it, but there is something within me that bothers me about it.
Anyways, I don't know where to go with this one. Any help/advice would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Rob
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