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Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
pinko:
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on January 18, 2009, 08:34:10 AM ---
--- Quote ---I'm an anarchist, as I believe Jesus was (and is)..
--- End quote ---
Hello Pinko,
If by definition you live your life by this insertion into your post(anarchist),me thinks that the Spiritual condensation that we all seek here is missing.
--- End quote ---
Hi Mark-- that word (anarchist) has been terribly besmirched by those who have used it to justify their lawlessness and ungodliness over the centuries. I use it, however, in it's original meaning...the sense in which Jesus used it when he said this:
25and Jesus having called them near, said, `Ye have known that the rulers of the nations do exercise lordship over them, and those great do exercise authority over them,
26but not so shall it be among you, but whoever may will among you to become great, let him be your ministrant;
27and whoever may will among you to be first, let him be your servant;
28even as the Son of Man did not come to be ministered to, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.' (from Matt., chap 20)
And the servant is not greater than his master.. If jesus was here to serve, then are we here to serve and not to rule over others. Archists live their philosophy of dominating others... and they do it ultimately with the threat of force or fraud. That is the only way people can rule over others. But the principles which Jesus espoused (remember the sermon on the mount) are ANarchist. We, children of the kingdom of God, are NOT LIKE the archists... we who would be great in the kingdom, as Christ said, will be the servants of others.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: pinko on January 17, 2009, 10:04:43 PM ---I'm an anarchist, as I believe Jesus was (and is)..
--- End quote ---
Definiton of anarchism from Free Dictionary website:
anarchism
noun
1. The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished.
2. Active resistance and terrorism against the state, as used by some anarchists.
3. Rejection of all forms of coercive control and authority
4. A political theory advocating the elimination of governments and governmental restraint and the substitution of voluntary cooperation among individuals.
Pinko,
What scriptures do you believe Jesus states and supports these definitions (particularly the ones in bold)?
1. You know the Lord is coming to set up His Kingdom or government, right? [I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom...2 Tim 4:1] and [The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...Rev 11:15]
2. You know Jesus showed no resistance and/or terrorism when he was oppressed? [He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter...Isa 53:7] and [I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled...Mark 14:49]
3. You know that Jesus never rejected His Father's authority? [My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work...John 4:34] and [The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do...John 5:19]
4. You know that all the voluntary cooperation among individuals still results in wickedness and corruption? [O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always...Deut 5:29] and [And they (people of Babel) said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven (signifying pride, haughtiness, self-worship)...Gen 11:4]
Pinko, this may seem harsh, but one cannot bring the Lord down to where one is with their personal beliefs...we must repent and humble ourselves and the Lord will lift us up. This entire concept is you attempting to bring the Lord into agreement with your personal beliefs...this is a huge idol of the heart that we all have done in one form or the other.
You are even willing to disregard the very words of the apostles Peter and Paul to try and 'conform' Christ to your personal beliefs. You even stated that 'if something doesn't seem to fit, I have to question whether what I'm reading is true'...again, this is that idol of the heart. You are saying if the words of God do not fit with your beliefs, it must be questioned to whether or not it is true. With this line of thinking, (1) you will never humble yourself and question your own heart and intentions, just any of the word of God you believe contradicts your beliefs and (2) you set yourself in your temple (body) as your own god and all must be in agreement with this god.
Pinko, the Lord is changing and conforming our mind to the mind of Christ [Rom 8:29, 12:2] and it is done through humility and being teachable. Attempting to make His Word 'fit' with our beliefs is not that humility or being teachable that is required.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Marky Mark:
--- Quote from: pinko on January 18, 2009, 09:02:14 AM ---
--- Quote from: Arcturus on January 18, 2009, 01:57:31 AM ---Hi Pinko
Ray has said that most of his emails he receives are questions on contradictions. We know that the carnal mind sees contradiction. The spiritual mind sees the mystery of God's Plan and Purpose to cause His transformation of us into His Son. The way that God does this is expounded throughout the teachings here in Bible Truths (BT)
What is of concern to me is that there are seductive teachers outside of BT who's conclusions that Paul is a deception appointed by God in His Plan is not what is taught here in BT. Paul is seen as a spiritual giant here in BT and not as a spiritual deception.
As Jesus said, render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. Non can serve two masters.
Does Jesus contradict Himself?
Arc
--- End quote ---
First, I do not think Paul is anything less than a 'spiritual giant' myself. I'm just not so sure that everything that was attributed to Paul was actually said by Paul. As Ray has aptly pointed out, there's been some tinkering with the scriptures over the years... I choose to look at the Bible as a whole--and it should be consistant as a whole. When something doesn't seem to fit, I have to question whether 'I'm reading it right'... After all, my disdain for the concept of an eternal hell and my failure to see how it could be biblical at all is how I stumbled onto this site in the first place. So, some things are not as they seem, no?
But to answer your question---no, I don't think Jesus contradicts himself at all when he said to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. No one can serve two masters."
--- Quote ---In fact, I take that quite literally. I think Jesus meant exactly what he said...Obviously, since no man CAN serve two masters, any who would serve Jesus, could not also serve Caesar! Further, since "all the world is the Lord's and everything in it", I reckon we should be "rendering" all to God, and nothing to Caesar.. Which is precisely what Jesus in effect said.
--- End quote ---
Matter of fact, this 'render unto Caesar' thing needs to be destroyed once and for all. It has been so misconstrued and purposely twisted, it is now being held to teach the exact opposite of what was intended. I hope Ray will take this matter up one day with the same vigor as he dismantled the eternal hell error.
--- End quote ---
I feel that Father being (Spirit), and then giving Jesus (Spirit) the duty of creation in the physical, ie; all that we as humans can understand and see is with out a doubt a rendering of sorts. We have to be in the physical and at the same time we have to be learning the Spiritual, no? To give on to Ceaser could also be said like to give on to any worldly government.
We as citizens of the world have to follow the rules and laws and regulations in order to keep civil,but ultimately, the reason for being, in the first place, is to learn righteousness and to follow the Spirit of Jesus. So we can not follow two masters,one the world, and the other God,but, I think we do have to follow the physical LAWS in order to keep chaos from setting in and destroying what little peace we do have as a people.
Peace... Mark
Kat:
Hi Pinko,
--- Quote ---Jesus did not dispute this claim of Satan that all earthly (governmental) authority--all states--were rightfully the Devil's; were given to him; and therefore flowed from him to all the kings of the earth.
--- End quote ---
Satan is the ruler of this world only under God's sovereign.
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
The answer Christ gave Satan did not go over his statement point by point, but it clearly shows that Christ certainly did not go along with Satan's statement to Him.
Luke 4:6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
v. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours."
v. 8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'
--- Quote ---How then does this passage not undeniably refute Paul's (and Peter's) claim that 'all government authority comes from God.'...and that we should even "honor the emperor" (and thus his 'authority')?
--- End quote ---
Jesus always states that we should put God first and since the governments of the world were established ultimately by God... So even in all their corruption we should live at peace with this world and that would seem to entail going by their laws the best we can.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5675.0 ------
Rom 13:7 Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
This is talking about the laws of the land, the governments, the enforcement people and everything else, and all of the regulations that come out of cities and counties and so on. “…tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom…” You may be familiar with someone who has as much as spit on this. You don’t just have to obey the laws, it says you have to obey the customs too.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ninny:
I'm not really understanding why you are combining the words "none can serve two masters" with the verses such as Mark 12:17 Which says "Render unto Caesar..." These were two different situations in one Jesus was talking about your relationship with the government and the other, He is telling the people to lay up treasure in heaven..the relationship between you and your money. Unless I have COMPLETELY missed the meaning of those verses! I know that the Bible is a parable, but sometimes you can take the verses for what they actually say!
Jesus was saying that you obey government authorities, but when it comes to your treasure (whatever that means to you) you must render that unto God because God is the one you serve and not your money!
I understand that we are called to "serve" our country, but in doing that you are not asked (at least right now) to worship your government!
When a circumstance arises for Christians to choose between government and God we must choose God for that's where our heart and our treasure is!
Now these are just my ramblings, BUT sometimes we are too busy concentrating on the wrong things!
Jesus stated it quite simply to me, it means "pay your taxes, serve God, AND don't be attached to your worldly goods!" Easy! :D
Kathy ;)
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