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Paul's contradiction of Jesus?
Craig:
Pinko,
There is no problem, so no worries :). Just when you made the statement about not being covered much, it left an opportunity to remind members of the rules of the forum. Lately we've seemed to forget them.
Craig
mharrell08:
Pinko, I'm somewhat confused:
--- Quote ---As Christians, we are not to revolt against authority, even if that authority is evil. We are supposed to believe that God placed those people above us for a reason. We are supposed to serve them, even if they are evil, as if we are serving Christ.
--- End quote ---
This is from the email to Ray and exactly what Peter and Paul are stating...but you started this entire thread stating that Paul and Peter maybe contradicting Christ with this same message. Or were you explaining some other point? I know how it is to be misunderstood so I'm just trying to follow.
Marques
Jackie Lee:
This thread served a very worthwhile cause and the email Beloved posted was priceless.
Maybe this thread will help some to see that Paul does not contradict Jesus and his teachings.
I had a friend that thought Paul was satan's messenger, so needless to say my friends friendship was broken at least for now.
aqrinc:
Pinko,
I am; and i believe most members here are in agreement with Ray on the Subject. My question
is still what crime was Jesus Christ Guilty of that caused Him to be crucified. There is no Scripture
that i have read stating this. None of the Scriptures quoted by you prove any such thing. Yes, He
was accused of many crimes by His accusers, when has an accusation ever been a conviction of
or proof guilt or innocence.
How can One without Spot or Blemish be blemished. Did Jesus Christ Die for his crime or for Our Sins.
Luke 23:4:
Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.
Luke 23:14:
Said to them, You have brought this man to me, as one that perverts the people: and, behold, I, having
examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof you accuse him:
John 18:38:
Pilate said to him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to
them, I find in him no fault at all.
John 19:4:
Pilate therefore went forth again, and said to them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that you may know
that I find no fault in him.
John 19:6:
When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
Pilate said to them, Take you him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
Now please show some Scripture that contradicts the verses above. Remember an accusation is not
a finding of guilt or innocence. But When God Has a Plan; It Always Works, according to the Scriptures.
george. :)
Beloved:
Pinko I think people are finding it hard to answer your questions about contradictions when there are so many contradictions in your questions.
You say things like
Now I know much of the NT teachings seem to contradict this teaching--in spirit--if not in letter, but one incident in particular is recorded in 3 of the Gospels---namely Jesus' temptation by Satan, wherein he was offered "all the kingdoms of the world. And the devil said to him, 'To you I will give their glory and all this authority, for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you then will worship me, it will all be yours[/b].'"
Jesus did not dispute this claim of Satan that all earthly (governmental) authority--all states--were rightfully the Devil's; were given to him; and therefore flowed from him to all the kings of the earth.
Well here are the three (it is way too complex to explain here but the different gospel versions are spiritually significant)
(Mar 1:12) And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
(Mar 1:13) And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
(Mat 4:8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
(Mat 4:9) And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Only Luke makes this statement you are claiming to be a contradiction.
(Luk 4:5) And the Devil having brought him up to an high mountain, shewed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
(Luk 4:6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
(Luk 4:7) If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Okay we can see your point Satan was given power but what was he given
(Gen 3:14) Then said Yahweh God unto the serpent-Because thou hast done this, Accursed, art thou above every tame-beast, and above every wild-beast of the field,-on thy belly, shall thou go, and dust, shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
(Gen 3:19) In the sweat of thy face, shalt thou eat bread, until thou return to the ground, because therefrom, wast thou taken,-For, dust, thou art, And, unto dust, shalt thou return.
Satan was given dominion over the carnal aspect of man and their desires , If they want to be be kings or dictators, artists or porno stars
This is shown in Job also..Job too submitted he physical aspects even though he did not exactly understand why
We are told
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
The three things that Eve fell for but that Jesus resisted in the temptation in the wilderness
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
There is no spiritual contradiction or even contradiction in the letter, the things in print said are 'apparent contradicitions' to thos who cannot see the spiritual,
then you asked
How then does this passage not undeniably refute Paul's (and Peter's) claim that 'all government authority comes from God.'...and that we should even "honor the emperor" (and thus his 'authority')?
Jesus had nothing but utter disdain for the 'governing authorities' of his day..Matter of fact, he was actually executed for the crime of treason to Rome.. Remember he was brought before Pilate with the accusation that "We found this man perverting our nation, forbidding us to pay taxes to the emperor, and saying that he himself is the Messiah, a king." (Lk 23:1-2) None of which were denied... color](Pinko that is Jesus performing an act of submission for the Father)
What disdain are you speaking of ?
(Luk 23:34) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Pilot was a carnal...a coward, self centered and power hungry, he knew what they were up to and gave in to them...Jesus submitted
(Joh 19:12) And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
You are truly missing one major point the spiritual versus the physical
Here is a scripture where Jeusus lays it out...
(Mat 17:24) And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
(Mat 17:25) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
(Mat 17:26) Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
(Mat 17:27) Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
he paid them...don't you see the spiritual, he took money out of the sea (world) out of fish (make them fishers of men...the saving of all)
When on trial Jesus confirms this
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My Kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
(Joh 19:11) Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Jesus himself submitted to being crucified in obedience to His father.
Did you ever consider that after the ressurection
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Paul and Peter are all referring to the new rules.....
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
In the physical we are under all authroities of the physical world but in the spiritual we are dying to self....we are slaves.and servants .... in the kingdom of God children awaiting to become sons and heirs
Here is more of Ray on the subject
One
God will judge you for teaching His people false doctrines. How could make such a statement about tithing? Did you receive a revelation from God apart from the bible. Shame on you, the word of God never change .Tithing is act of obedient to God. The Lord provides us with everything we have, what's wrong of obeying His word. Is tithing is wrong, everything else in the word of God is wrong. Jesus will tells you depart from me workers of iniquity I never knew you. No way you're going to enter the kingdom of God, unless you repent from your false teaching. Stop leading God's people astray. The Lord Jesus says to render to Cesar what belong's to him and render to God what's belong to God. You're such a deceiver!
Lee!
As I have often said: "Hell has no fury like a Christian just shown the truth." Didn't Jesus say to "Render unto Caesar the things (the coins with his image on them) WHICH ARE CAESARS?"
We are to render unto God the things (NOT CAESAR'S MONEY!!) which ARE God's. How could anyone be so spiritually ignorant and then boast about it and demean and threaten those who teach the truth. Imagine trying to make that Scripture say that Believers should give unto GOD, the things that belong to CAESAR?! The coins with Caesar's image belong to Caesar. God doesn't want Caesar's filthy money! When did Jesus ever "render CAESAR'S MONEY unto His Father?" Give me a break.
Unbelievable, the way Christians pervert the Scriptures and despise the Word of God.
Ray
Two
Dear Mr. Smith,
You asked in your writing about tithing if anyone could mention a scripture where Jesus mentioned tithing.
He was asked about giving money to Caesar. He replied give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. There is no question that he was talking about money.
I do tithe and I do so cheerfully. Not to be blessed financially in return, but out of the pure joy of giving.
You should try it.
In Christ,
Jean Kern
Dear Jean: Thank you for that little psychological put-down. You are right about one thing, however, Jesus was definitely talking about MONEY! Too bad that you and the hundreds of thousands of clergymen and seminary professors have not a clue as to what this episode is all about.
Now then, the reason He was talking about money is because these lying, two-faced religious hypocrites of His day, just like those in our day did not like the teachings of Jesus, and so they tried to trap Him and get Him to say something bad against the Roman government. They asked:
"Tell us therefore, What do you think? It is lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye Me, ye hypocrites? Show Me the tribute money [excuse me, did Jesus say 'show me the TITHE money?']. And they brought unto Him a penny. And He said unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto Him, Caesar's. Then said He unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which ARE Caesar's and unto God the things that ARE God's."
Now then, Why didn't Jesus just answer them? Why didn't He say, "Yes, you should pay tribute to Caesar?"
Why did He ask for a coin, and not just any coin, but one that had Caesar's image on it? Because that image of Caesar on the coin showed ownership. Who does the money in the Roman empire belong to? Why Caesar, of course. And so Jesus said in effect, "Yes, it is Caesar's image, therefore it belongs to Caesar." Therefore render unto Caesar the things [the money] which ARE Caesar's. The coin, THE MONEY that Jesus was showing them, that MONEY, that filthy lucre, belongs to Caesar, NOT GOD. God does not want the filthy lucre of this world's evil governments. We are to render unto God the things that ARE God's, NOT MONEY. Jesus profoundly showed that the money belongs to Caesar, so give Caesar his tax money. But God does not tax His people under the New Covenant. How can anyone study the Scriptures and be so blind to this simple truth and analogy of our Lord? Unbelievable!
God be with you,
Ray
Three
Hello Ray,
I really enjoy your articles, especially those on the subject of Hell. I have two questions:
1. Should "True Christians be involved in Politics and vote ?
2. When "Searching the deepthings of God", is using one's analytical skills and logic a stumbling block, or a god-given help ?
Thanks for your time.
Willie
Dear Willie:
No, a true follower of Jesus cannot be involved in politics. Jesus certainly did not take part in any such worldly activities.
As the Scriptures can hold up to analysis and logic, there is nothing wrong in using analysis and logic in studying and/or teaching the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
beloved
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