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Author Topic: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?  (Read 13821 times)

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daywalker

  • Guest
Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« on: January 23, 2009, 12:37:45 AM »

Obviously the answer is "NO", but I used the line cause it's 'catchy'. *gotcha* ;) :D

Nonetheless, I am having trouble understanding exactly what Peter is saying here. I know what he is not saying, but not what he is saying:

1 Peter 3:18-20:

Seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
In which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,

pneuma - spirit

He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water.

psychē - breath, the soul


I'm pretty sure Ray talks about this, but I'm having trouble locating it. If anyone knows, a link would be superb!  8) Or if anyone knows the answer themselves, and has Scripture to help clear it up for me, that would be fantastic!

I could be totally overlooking something, or "making the simple, complicated". [Apparently there's still some residue left over from Babylon... one of these days, I'll have to clean my pipe again]  :D


Thanks in advance for all your advice!

Daywalker.
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 12:58:34 AM »

Ps 102:19-22 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death; To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem; When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

Ps 142:5-7  I cried unto thee, O LORD: I said, Thou art my refuge and my portion in the land of the living. Attend unto my cry; for I am brought very low: deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than I. Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Ps 146:5-9  Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever: Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous: The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

Isa 61:1-3  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Luke 4:16-21  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, THIS DAY is THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED in YOUR EARS.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2009, 01:37:25 AM »

Hi Daywalker,

Hope my little bit of verse by verse reading helps.
Once you read the entire subject it seems very simple what Jesus Christ did.

18- talks about His death and Resurrection (Vivified Spirit)
19- talks about In It (The Spirit) obviously after his Resurrection he went to proclaim victory to the Spirits in prison.
20- talks about who were these spirits like.

Not trying to teach, just reading the words as they are written.

1 Peter: 3: 18-20
18-This is true because Christ suffered for our sins once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty
people so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit.

19-In it he also went to proclaim his victory to the spirits kept in prison.

20-They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built
the ship. In this ship a few people--eight in all--were saved by water.

george. :)

Ps. no technical questions for me please just my 2.5 cents.


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OBrenda

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2009, 12:36:41 PM »

God Bless you Samson, ;D

I see You have become quite skilled posting Ray's stuff.
That is exactly what I needed to read!

YSIC,
Brenda
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 03:39:50 PM by OBrenda »
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2009, 01:04:07 PM »

I have a question that goes along with this study that Daywalker has started in this thread.  Hope no one minds me tossing it out there:

I have had a dear person present to me a scripture that they believe proves we do not stay in the grave.

John 11:23-26  Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I AM  the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mat 22:29-32  Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I'm not knowledgeable yet to respond to this.  Still studying....Your responses and insights will be appreciated and hope to add to everyones understand on this.

 ;D
Brenda



Hi Brenda,

               Below I copied a response regarding the Physical resurrection and the Spiritual from one
              of Ray's Transcripts that should help you. The passage you mentioned at Matt. Chp. 22
              that God is the God of the living, not the dead shows that even though everyone dies
              and goes to Sheol/Hades, like Abraham, Isacc and Jacob and are dead, the hope of the
              Ressurection is a certainty, so to God they are alive to him, a guarantee. John chapter
              11 mentioned above says " they shall live ", sounds like future tense. Lazarus was physically
              Resurrected, but eventually died again and is still in Sheol to this day. See 1 Corinthians chapter
              15:15-28. Read this Article by Ray listed below.


               







    PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
« on: June 14, 2008, 01:40:06 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL  RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?

This is a rather involved study that I have only a short time to touch upon at this time. I realize that this will probably (as always) raise even more questions in other areas. Please don’t try to speculate yourself in unscriptural solutions to these potential mysteries. I must stay focused on those studies which I deem most import for our site at this time, and don’t have the time to be side-tracked too often.

There are few places in the Old Testament where a resurrection of dead people are mentioned or alluded to.  Jesus stated that the declaration, “Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matt. 22:31).

This statement proves that if God is the “God of the living,” but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead when Jesus mentions them, then there has got to be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The major prophecy concerning the resurrection is found in Ezek. 37. Here we are shown a valley of “dry bones” which God says represents “the WHOLE House of Israel” -- “And He said unto me, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished has our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves” (Ezek. 37:11).

So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being “perished” with no “hope,” and are “cut off.”  But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?

I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."

Eze 37:8  “And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.]  has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."

I know of no “spiritual” tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical “bones” to remake a “spiritual” man.  This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 “And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force” (Ezek. 37:10).
 
Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then “stand on their feet.” This is the exact and precise definition of the word “resurrection.” It means to “stand up” upon one’s feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being “spiritual” or “immortal” whatsoever.  Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ’s resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.

Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere.  The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let’s notice a few things that most overlook:

Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world?  The salvation of the wicked?  The resurrection of the wicked?  NO.  Let’s read it:

“Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, ‘brethren’] I declare unto YOU the gospel…” (I Cor. 15:1).

“…by which also YOU are saved…” (Verse 2).

“For I delivered unto YOU….” (Verse 3).  Etc.

What is the “order” of the resurrection of which Paul speaks?  “But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at His coming” (Verse 23).

The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of “they that are CHRIST’S,” not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment.  Pay attention TO THE WORDS!

1Co 15:50  “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God “inheriting the Kingdom of God.  Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their “inheriting the Kingdom of God?” I think not.  Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection?  Well many say “YES, yes they will.”  NO, no they WON’T!  Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?”   Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”

We are told that a seed must die to give life to a new seed, or grain, or body (Verse 36).

What KIND of new seed comes about from planting a seed that first must die?  1Co 15:37  “And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain”

Are we told what the “other” grain might be that sprouts like “wheat?”  Yes, as a matter of fact, we are:  Mat 13:25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

And are these “tares” also gathered into the barns (brought into the Kingdom of God)?  NO, Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest [resurrection] I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles [different ‘groups’ at different ‘burnings’?]  to burn them [in the Lake of Fire]: but gather the wheat into my barn [My KINGDOM].

NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up “immortal and incorruptible.”

What else do we learn about the resurrection of God’s Elect?  What are some of the features of their newly resurrected bodies?

“…but the glory of the celestial [high, above, heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [worldly, EARTHLY] is another” (Verse 40).

Which category do the Elect come in?  Now pay attention:  1Co 15:48-49  As is the earthy, such  ARE  they also that  ARE  earthy: and as is the heavenly, such  ARE  they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, WE SHALL  also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice that ONLY “we”  [God’s Elect], not “they,”  “…shall bear the image of the heavenly.”  Paul is speaking that “THEY, the earthy,” and “WE, the heavenly,” and only the “we” will “bear the image of the heavenly,” not “they,” the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.

Now we can understand verse 50 in proper context:  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [corrupt men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Saddam Hussein]  inherit incorruption.

The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those “WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly.”  And this happens at a specific time:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory”  (I Cor. 15:51-54).

It is the “we” and the “us” that will be changed at the last trump, not the “they” and the “them.”

Should Mao, Adolph, and Saddam be resurrected to incorruptible and immortal bodies, then death would also be “swallowed up in victory” in THEIR LIVES ALSO.  How could they go through the “second DEATH” if “death” would have already been “swallowed up in VICTORY” in their miserable, wicked, vile, and deranged carnal minds?  Such people know nothing of  “the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus.”  They know only of “law of SIN AND DEATH” (Rom. 8:2).

Notice these verses describing the resurrection of God’s elect:

1Co 15:42-45  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION:  It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER:  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

INCORRUPTION:  Strong’s #861, aphtharsia, “from #862 [un-decaying]; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: immortality, incorruption, sincerity.”

Note:  INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY

GLORY:  Strong’s #1391, doxa, G1391 From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honor, praise, worship.

Note:  GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP

POWER:  Strong’s #1411, dunamis, From G1410;  “force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.”

Note:  FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKIER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK

SPIRITUAL:  Strong’s #4152, pneumatikos From G4151;  “non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual.

Note:  NON-CARNAL ETHEREAL (as opposed to gross or daemoniacally) SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL

Now let’s foolishly assume that the wicked are going to be resurrected with “spiritual” bodies. The only place in Scripture that anyone is said to be resurrected with a “spiritual body,” is in these many references in I Cor. 15. So if a resurrected “spiritual body” applies to the unjust and the wicked and the unbelievers, then these attributes which constitute a “spiritual body” resurrection MUST APPLY TO THEM ALSO.  Now then, show me one Scripture anywhere that justifies people like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein being resurrected with:

INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
 
Is there anywhere a Scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious, and holy, divine light?  I think not. Rather we are presented with this as the characterization of the resurrected wicked to eonian judgment:

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame [rebuke, reproach, disgrace] and everlasting [eonian] contempt [repulsion, aversion, abhorrence].

Is it possible to have a greater contradiction of character traits than this?  No, those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.  It’s unscriptural nonsense as far as I can see.  Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray


                                  Hope this helps, Samson.
 
 
 
 
 








    Re: PHYSICAL 
 
 
 
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2009, 04:05:42 PM »

Wow! Thanks for all the responses! I knew this was simpler than I was making it, I just couldn't "put my fingers on it"!

Marques: Those Scriptures provided are amazing! And the order that you presented them in your reply was perfect. Thanx.

george: Thanx for your 2.5 cents  ;)  I noticed in verse 20 you have "They are like those who disobeyed long ago.." This actually helps me greatly to understand what is being said, however every translation I read doesn't include the "they are like those".. just he preached to those.. who disobeyed... Which translation did you use? Thanx

Rodger: Thanx for the email links. I remember reading them several months ago, just forgot about them. Thanks again.

Brenda: Just to add to what Samson posted, the King James really messes up in the case of John 11:26 where it says "shall never die..." Here's a few more accurate Translations:

Young's Literal Translation:
and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:
And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?

Concordant Literal New Testament:
And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"


Hope that helps some more..


ONCE AGAIN:
Thanks all for your help. I definitely have a much better understanding now. It's great to be able to come here to this forum and know that I will get honest SCRIPTURAL responses! I remember when I used to ask people in church, I'd typically get responses starting with, "Well, I THINK it means..." Right there I know I'm not getting the "right" answers.

But here I'm with like-minded brethren who search the Scriptures. Thanks everyone!  ;D ;D


May God continue to guide us all towards Him,

CHRISTOPHER.
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 04:23:41 PM »

No problem...glad to be of assistance. That's what it's all about.  :)


Marques
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 04:25:32 PM »

Wow! Thanks for all the responses! I knew this was simpler than I was making it, I just couldn't "put my fingers on it"!

Marques: Those Scriptures provided are amazing! And the order that you presented them in your reply was perfect. Thanx.

george: Thanx for your 2.5 cents  ;)  I noticed in verse 20 you have "They are like those who disobeyed long ago.." This actually helps me greatly to understand what is being said, however every translation I read doesn't include the "they are like those".. just he preached to those.. who disobeyed... Which translation did you use? Thanx

Rodger: Thanx for the email links. I remember reading them several months ago, just forgot about them. Thanks again.

Brenda: Just to add to what Samson posted, the King James really messes up in the case of John 11:26 where it says "shall never die..." Here's a few more accurate Translations:

Young's Literal Translation:
and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:
And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?

Concordant Literal New Testament:
And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"


Hope that helps some more..


ONCE AGAIN:
Thanks all for your help. I definitely have a much better understanding now. It's great to be able to come here to this forum and know that I will get honest SCRIPTURAL responses! I remember when I used to ask people in church, I'd typically get responses starting with, "Well, I THINK it means..." Right there I know I'm not getting the "right" answers.

But here I'm with like-minded brethren who search the Scriptures. Thanks everyone!  ;D ;D


May God continue to guide us all towards Him,

CHRISTOPHER.


Thankyou Christopher,

                              I guess it's finally time to purchase Rotherhams Emphasized Bible.
                              I wasn't aware of that mistranslation of the phrase " Shall never die "
                              in John chapter 11, it sure makes things much easier to understand.

                                                 Kind Regards, Samson.
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 05:23:17 PM »

Thankyou Christopher,

                              I guess it's finally time to purchase Rotherhams Emphasized Bible.
                              I wasn't aware of that mistranslation of the phrase " Shall never die "
                              in John chapter 11, it sure makes things much easier to understand.

                                                 Kind Regards, Samson.

No Problem! But to be honest, I have to give the credit to Ray, I first read it in his Lake of Fire Series [somewhere].  8)

Regarding the REB, I purchased one a few weeks ago from Amazon.com, best decision I've made in awhile! I LOVE IT!

- Daywalker
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 07:19:55 PM »

Hi Daywalker,

Glad i could be a signpost on your journey, we all need and use those to find the way.
Ray has been Blessed with the knowledge and Ability to teach; like few i have seen in
their discipline; and unparalled in getting The Word to us, (That is Of God).

I find that even when it is the third or fourth time reading one of his papers or listening
to an audio; more truth always rings out. Now i am forced to read The Scriptures over
to make sure (Did It Really Say That) :o.

Keep growing and learning (Spiritual Things) at the same time do some unlearning of the
(physical seen things) that we were sold. It sure has turned a light on for me.

God's Word To The Nations (Bible)
1 Peter: 3: 18-20
18-This is true because Christ suffered for our sins once. He was an innocent person, but he suffered for guilty
people so that he could bring you to God. His body was put to death, but he was brought to life through his spirit.

19-In it he also went to proclaim his victory to the spirits kept in prison.

20-They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built
the ship. In this ship a few people--eight in all--were saved by water.

george. ;D



Thankyou Christopher,

                              I guess it's finally time to purchase Rotherhams Emphasized Bible.
                              I wasn't aware of that mistranslation of the phrase " Shall never die "
                              in John chapter 11, it sure makes things much easier to understand.

                                                 Kind Regards, Samson.

No Problem! But to be honest, I have to give the credit to Ray, I first read it in his Lake of Fire Series [somewhere].  8)

Regarding the REB, I purchased one a few weeks ago from Amazon.com, best decision I've made in awhile! I LOVE IT!

- Daywalker

« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 06:30:18 PM by aqr »
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 10:18:26 PM »

Sometimes when I'm teaching I feel that I'm preaching in hades.  I say something and I get some blank deer in the headlights gaze.  I think man, I'm preaching to the dead.
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 10:25:00 PM »


Musicman,

I hesitate to ask; which compartment ???.

george. :)

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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 07:11:08 PM »

Sometimes when I'm teaching I feel that I'm preaching in hades.  I say something and I get some blank deer in the headlights gaze.  I think man, I'm preaching to the dead.

Lol Musicman,

I feel that way when I'm having 'bible talk' with my mom. That's NOT a knock against her, it's just when I tell her stuff, and I show her the Scriptures, she sees it, and she gets it..  But then next week, we're having the same discussion all over again. Probably due to the fact that she continues to go to church every Sunday, then she asks me about what they 'taught' her, and I again I show her the Scriptures that refute what they 'taught' her, and she gets it... but then next week happens...

Round and round we go...  ::) :D

Daywalker
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 06:19:56 PM »

Jesus did not die at the cross and come alive somewhere else to preach to unressurected souls of the dead from the days of Noah or anywhere else. When Jesus was dead He was dead and not alive somewhere else.

Noah built the arc because he believed and obeyed God. Disobedience does not believe or obey God.
Peters usage of the word prison denotes disobedience.  By example, Noah displayed the faith in God that was rejected through disobedience. This disobedience personifies bondage to sin.

Christ is the God of the OT. There are many teachings here in BT that expound this truth. Christ spoke to Moses and has spoken through the prophets and is the same Spirit that exhibited obedience to God through Noah that spoke to the disobedient ridiculing unbelievers  during the days of Noah.

References:

Jesus Christ IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!
He is THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!
Jesus Christ is the ONLY REVELATION OF GOD THAT WE HAVE.
Even the Holy Spirit we all have comes from God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Jesus is that Comforter, that Spirit.
Our Saviour and our Brother.
The Son of God.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html  Re: Nashville Conference 2007

Most all Christian theologians would claim to believe the first statement of Scriptural Truth that I present below, especially when I cite a Scripture verse with it, but they will then contradict and refuse to teach the second statement of Truth.

Do they believe Christ really died for the sins of the world? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ was dead when they placed Him in the tomb? No.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Back to our Scripture, second part of Rom. 10:9, "…that God has raised Him from the DEAD?" Do you believe that? Do you really? Or do you believe as orthodoxy does that Jesus (Himself) NEVER DIED! That’s right. Jesus Christ (the REAL Jesus) Himself, is said to have never died. Theologians teach that only His body died. That Jesus Himself was not DEAD, but was rather on a preaching mission, somewhere in a place called Hell, during the time He was supposed to be dead, and was supposed to be in the heart of the earth, and was supposed to be fulfilling the sign of Jonah, and was supposed to be paying for the sins of the world by suffering death, and supposed to be fulfilling prophecy, all in accord with what His Father ordained for Him to do. Do you believe "JESUS" died or that only His "body" died?

http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html


Arc
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2009, 04:22:48 PM »

Here is what our dictionaries tell us: "death, n. 1. the act of dying; the termination of life. 2. The state of being dead. 3. The cause of dying" (American Heritage College Dictionary). This is really important to remember. The word death denotes an ACT, STATE, & CAUSE. It will be nothing but confusion if we do not keep all three of these in mind when dealing with the abolition of "death."

All three of these definitions are true in actual fact. One is no more true than the others. So when God tells us that "the last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), it must include every and all aspects of what death really is. Death will no longer be the cause of anyone going through death in the act of dying, neither will there be any more dead people in the final state of death. But will Christians accept the abolition (or destruction) of the ACT of death, the CAUSE of death, and the STATE of death, as representing what Jesus Christ will, literally and spiritually "destroy?" No, of course not.
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Now get ready for a real revelation. There are two mysteries in Heb. 9:27 when applied to God's Elect:

what and when is the "ONCE to die?"

what and when is the "after this JUDGMENT?"

We will take up the Elect's Judgment part of this verse first.

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

Perhaps with the information above might give you a little more understanding about death. For a more indepth study you will need to meditate on the teachings from which the above excerpt is quoted. 

Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: Explaining certain phrases
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2009, 05:07:26 PM »

For some reason I confused.  I get the gist of the phrases below but I'm having a a hard time understanding the phrases at the same time.  (I hope I'm not confusing anyone w/my question).  I understand what an age is an also know what a eon is.. but the phrases below I'm having a hard time digesting the usage.

what does shall not die - "to the Age" mean, or shall in anyway die, "unto times age-abiding" and by no means be "dying for the eon"

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Young's Literal Translation:
and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:
And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?

Concordant Literal New Testament:
And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"



Those believing in Christ (the Elect) will not 'be dying' for the next eon, the Day of the Lord.

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2009, 05:31:56 PM »

There is a Judgement on the House of God now. Those in this Judgement who overcome, and who are the righteous not the wicked, these are the Elect who's "time of delivery from this world's ills, takes place at the unveiling of Jesus Christ which is in the Day of the Lord. " quote from Exposing the "Secret Rapture"

As Marques notes in the Scriptures, it is these Elect who shall not be harmed or receive the wrath of indignation upon them because to them, is appointed REST after our trials.

Ref : http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
 And when did Peter teach that we would receive rest and glory for enduring the testing?

"... that the testing of your faith, much more precious than gold which is perishing, yet, being tested by fire, may be found for applause and glory and honor AT THE UNVEILING OF JESUS CHRIST" (I Pet. 1:7).


Arc
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 05:39:43 PM by Arcturus »
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Kat

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Re: Did Jesus Preach in Hades?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2009, 06:14:17 PM »


Hi Jacobbsladdr,

Here are a few excerpts that I think might help from the article 'The Origin of Eternal Punisment.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html -----------------

Notice how the King James and many modern Bibles translate the following verse:

"And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall NEVER DIE. Believe you this?" (John 11:26).
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If you have e-Sword, you can see that the word translated "never" is the translation of three Greek words, not just one. Does it really take three Greek words to represent our English word "never?" No it doesn’t.

The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33). This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that’s what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God’s statement back in the Garden, that’s why.

The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:

#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."

#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."

#165 = aion, "age."

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"…should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"…NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"…NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"…shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned… the wages of sin is death… in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ… should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"…that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).
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Paul tells us is our only hope of ever living again after we die.

So do we enter eternal life upon death, as Christendom teaches? NO, let’s read it:

"So also is the resurrection of the DEAD [notice please, that nowhere in Scripture does it speak of the Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the LIVING, or of the resurrection of the BODY], it is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body… the first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [that would be Jesus] was made a quickening [living] SPIRIT" (I Cor. 15:42-46)

Not a quickening PHYSICAL body.

Notice that we are first made a "natural body." Adam (and all of his children—that’s US), did not have an "immortal soul," did he? His body was a "natural" body. Only Jesus was made a "living SPIRIT." It says so right here. Can the natural man with a natural body of flesh and blood ever enter into the Kingdom of God? "…flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (Ver. 50). Does the orthodox Christian Church teach that we will have PHYSICAL BODIES in the Kingdom of God? Yes, yes they do—but then again, none of their doctrines are from the Scriptures. "It is raised [from the dead] a SPIRITUAL BODY" (Ver. 44).

Do these verses contradict the verses we have been reading in John 6? No, of course not. But didn’t John 6:50 say, "…that a man may eat thereof [of Christ], and NOT DIE?" The Believing Elect of God will not die as did the fathers in the wilderness who ate NOT of that true Bread from heaven. The answer is that we will "not die FOR THE EON" (John 11:26), because we have "eternal [eonian] life in us" (John 6:54).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat


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