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Author Topic: Could you guys help me out here?  (Read 2579 times)

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rtashpulatov

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Could you guys help me out here?
« on: January 26, 2009, 02:49:05 PM »

Brothers and sisters,

I have been sharing the true Good News to people and surprisingly (actually not surprisingly) I am meeting the most fierce opposition to the Good News from Christians themselves. Among the questions that I was asked there are two questions that pop out quite often (see below). The first one actually makes sense and perhaps it is a type of a question like "Why bother being a Christian if I can get saved anyway?". However, the second one is actually taught by the Church in many forms (eg: forceful bow, bow before one gets burnt, annihilated or tormented forever and ever).

I was wondering if there is any writing some can recommend either from Ray's articles or any other discussion trend that Scripturaly refute these allegations? Is there any articles (with Biblical references) that answer such responses were posted?

I would very much appreciate if one could point me in the righ direction either posting a link there or sending me an email.

Thanks a lot.

Rustam

1) So, why then all this hassle of imposing laws, forbidding some things, and allowing to do other? Why call them sinners? Let all people become non believers, and we will stand before the Judgment day and will be saved.

2) but it does not mean that all of the ones who "shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess" will be saved. Even the ones on the hell will bow before him, and Satan too. But it does not mean that they are saved from the hell, though they bow before him.

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 03:06:39 PM »

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#bad

Some of the emails and replies on this page should help.  The myth of Free-will plays into the second question as well. 

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dennis Vogel

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 03:42:34 PM »

If you had the time to look back (which I doubt anyone has) on this forum you would find many questions about trying to convince others about what you have just learned on bible-truths.com.

Even if you had all the answers you would not convince anyone of anything. There minds are closed. They are blind to the truth. There is nothing you can say that will change their mind.

You can bring it up and if they show interest tell them about the site. Else let it go. They are going to think you're a nut. Get use to it.

Dennis

ps: I have never been used as a tool to bring anyone I know personally to the truth. And I've been here from the beginning.
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smeacham

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 06:59:10 PM »

Dennis,

I HAVE seen more than one account of a spouse sharing what (s)he has learned here, and being instrumental in the conversion of their partner.  For example, my wife shows no interest in reading bible-truths.com, but she is very receptive of these truths when I present them in family Bible studies.

I actually talk about these things with friends, family, and coworkers all the time, because they're ON MY MIND all the time.  I've found that, when I talk about them as naturally as breathing, very little conflict arises.  But, when I'm doing this, I'm doing it without any intention of changing somebody's mind.

Steve
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smeacham

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 07:11:39 PM »

Rustam,

I've encountered three types of responses when talking about these things:
1. The humble response, usually with questions based on genuine interest;
2. The proud response, usually with questions or arguments that try to refute my beliefs; and
3. The indifferent response.

The ones you gave fall in category #2, I think.  For those, my personal approach is to ask for scriptures that prove me wrong or them right.  It's never been done successfully, but it's never mattered, either.

Because of my way of bring these things up in casual conversation, I get lots of opportunities.  I'd say that 80% are #3, 80% of the remaining are #2, and the rest are #1 (about half a dozen in the last two years).  You've just got to let the others go once you've planted the seed.

Steve
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winner08

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 07:15:54 PM »

I remember when I first had got here. I went on a sharing spree with others in my world, and I got ate up. Dennis is so right. Most people are set in their beliefs and they are very closed minded. I always get ate up and spit out. It takes more out of me trying to explain what I learn then them wanting to listen.
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cjwood

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 07:54:57 PM »

Dennis,

I HAVE seen more than one account of a spouse sharing what (s)he has learned here, and being instrumental in the conversion of their partner.  For example, my wife shows no interest in reading bible-truths.com, but she is very receptive of these truths when I present them in family Bible studies.

I actually talk about these things with friends, family, and coworkers all the time, because they're ON MY MIND all the time.  I've found that, when I talk about them as naturally as breathing, very little conflict arises.  But, when I'm doing this, I'm doing it without any intention of changing somebody's mind.

Steve











hi steve,

in reading your reply on this topic, i was somewhat confused regarding the statement that when one spouse shares what they have learned on BT, and that the BT believing spouse is instrumental in the conversion of the other spouse. i guess it is the word "instrumental" in the conversion of the other spouse that has me wondering. i believe after reading most of your post replies that you believe that only God can bring anyone to Himself (to be converted to believing His Truths). i am thinking perhaps your choice of words was not indicative of this truth.

all in Love,
claudia
































steve,
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jll

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 09:10:02 PM »

I have personally been off and on studying the material here for about two years. I don't feel armed enough to spread the truth as of yet.

But what I have done is question the opposition and make them defend their position. For example, a coworker was talking about the typical scenario of when one dies, he or she is immediatly off to heaven or hell. I asked him if any person is ever saved after they die. He said no in a very confident manner. I responded with asking him to show me some scriptures to the effect. He has yet to produce any but I have him thinking (outside of the christandom box) and at the right moment I will ask another simple question of him that he will not be able to answer scripturally.

Remember as I have read here, you can't corner a snake in a briar patch.
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daywalker

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 09:24:53 PM »

1) So, why then all this hassle of imposing laws, forbidding some things, and allowing to do other? Why call them sinners? Let all people become non believers, and we will stand before the Judgment day and will be saved.

Matthew 22:14: For many are called, but few are chosen

Rev. 2:11: He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

This is why we do. Because though many will not listen to what you say, some [few] will. And those people are the reason why.

Why impose laws?

Because: Romans 7:7: Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law

But if they refuse to listen to you, then STOP talking to them:

Matthew 7:6: Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

You obviously wouldn't hand out gold and jewels to just anyone... Likewise don't share the Truth with people who don't want to hear it.



2) but it does not mean that all of the ones who "shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess" will be saved. Even the ones on the hell will bow before him, and Satan too. But it does not mean that they are saved from the hell, though they bow before him.

Here's the problem with that statement:

I Corinthians 12:3:
"...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

Do "the ones in Hell" and "Satan" have the holy spirit [now]? I think not!

People can fight your 'words' and your 'opinions' but show them SCRIPTURE, and let them try to argue them! It only shows they don't believe in them!


God Bless You,

Daywalker.
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smeacham

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 12:20:06 AM »

Dennis,

I HAVE seen more than one account of a spouse sharing what (s)he has learned here, and being instrumental in the conversion of their partner.  For example, my wife shows no interest in reading bible-truths.com, but she is very receptive of these truths when I present them in family Bible studies.
...
hi steve,

in reading your reply on this topic, i was somewhat confused regarding the statement that when one spouse shares what they have learned on BT, and that the BT believing spouse is instrumental in the conversion of the other spouse. i guess it is the word "instrumental" in the conversion of the other spouse that has me wondering. i believe after reading most of your post replies that you believe that only God can bring anyone to Himself (to be converted to believing His Truths). i am thinking perhaps your choice of words was not indicative of this truth.

all in Love,
claudia
Hi Claudia,

No, I used exactly the word I meant to.  In this case, the spouse was an instrument (e.g. tool) in God's hands, used by Him to bring about His will.  Just one of the things He uses to form the clay.  And yes, I absolutely believe in God's sovereignty. 

"...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Philippians 2:13

Steven
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cjwood

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Re: Could you guys help me out here?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2009, 02:15:41 AM »

Dennis,

I HAVE seen more than one account of a spouse sharing what (s)he has learned here, and being instrumental in the conversion of their partner.  For example, my wife shows no interest in reading bible-truths.com, but she is very receptive of these truths when I present them in family Bible studies.
...
hi steve,

in reading your reply on this topic, i was somewhat confused regarding the statement that when one spouse shares what they have learned on BT, and that the BT believing spouse is instrumental in the conversion of the other spouse. i guess it is the word "instrumental" in the conversion of the other spouse that has me wondering. i believe after reading most of your post replies that you believe that only God can bring anyone to Himself (to be converted to believing His Truths). i am thinking perhaps your choice of words was not indicative of this truth.

all in Love,
claudia
Hi Claudia,

No, I used exactly the word I meant to.  In this case, the spouse was an instrument (e.g. tool) in God's hands, used by Him to bring about His will.  Just one of the things He uses to form the clay.  And yes, I absolutely believe in God's sovereignty. 

"...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Philippians 2:13

Steven




hi steve,
thanks for your reply back. forgive my concern. in my past conversations with people, anytime someone used the term instrumental, they were implying that they were the only one used to do such and such. i should have known that a brother in Christ who knows the truths of the scriptures would not use the term in that sense of the word.


claudia







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