When and how did chapter and verse teaching get started?

[WhoAmI]

Growing up I have always been exposed to as I now am to the constant use of chapter and verse type teaching. What shows that this is the proper way to teach? When did it start?

[Marky Mark]

WhoAmI,

  Hello.

  Here is a start to your inquiry,hope it helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible
 
  Peace...   Mark

[mharrell08]

Deut 8:2-3

And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Matt 4:4

But he [JESUS] answered and said, IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Deut 6:16

Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Matt 4:7

JESUS said unto him, IT IS WRITTEN AGAIN, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Ex. 34:14

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Matt 4:10

Then saith JESUS unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: FOR IT IS WRITTEN, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Isa 61 1-2

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD...

Luke 4:17-19

And there was delivered unto him [JESUS] the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah]. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where IT IS WRITTEN, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

1 John 4:17 

...because as he [JESUS] is, so are we in this world

John 17:1 & 16-23

These words spake JESUS...They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Marques

[smeacham]

Growing up I have always been exposed to as I now am to the constant use of chapter and verse type teaching. What shows that this is the proper way to teach? When did it start?

Could somebody define "chapter and verse type teaching" please?  I probably know what it is, but I don't remember ever using that specific phrase to refer to anything before.

Steve

[Akira329]

See previous post above.

Antaiwan

[hillsbororiver]

Growing up I have always been exposed to as I now am to the constant use of chapter and verse type teaching. What shows that this is the proper way to teach? When did it start?

Could somebody define "chapter and verse type teaching" please?  I probably know what it is, but I don't remember ever using that specific phrase to refer to anything before.

Steve

Hi Steve,

I believe what is meant here by "chapter and verse teaching" is referring to a specific lesson or message written down, recorded and ultimately quoted from what we today call the bible. This predates the New Testament even though it was not until the 13th and 14th centuries that the works of Stephen Langton (Archbishop of Cantebury) and Cardinal Hugo of Saint Cher were distributed with the books of scriptures divided into chapter and verse. Previously the bible read much like any other book.

The first whole bible that most resembles what we presently have is the work of Robert Stephens in his Vulgate of 1555 (Geneva). This is a very brief overview of the history of the bible being divided into chapter and verse. For a much better, more comprehensive study please read the following;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

In regard to the question of when teachers began referencing a particular passage it appears that this practice came about shortly after Moses wrote the first five books of scripture by the Lord's command and inspiration.

Num 33:2  And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out.

Deu 28:58  If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name,THE LORD THY GOD;

Jos 1:8  This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous and then thou shalt have good success.

Here are a few early examples of OT prophets referring to earlier writings to drive home a point or teaching;

Jos 8:31  As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lifted up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD and sacrificed peace offerings.

1Ki 2:3  And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments and his judgments and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

2Ki 23:21  And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant. 

Ezr 3:2  Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brethren the priests and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brethren and built the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

If anyone is inspired to search this matter they will find many more examples of this practice (of quoting previous, older writings).

Peace,

Joe
 

[Akira329]

Joe I had forgotten Ray did an entire conference on these things!
Thanks for the reminder!
Antaiwan

[hillsbororiver]

You are very welcome Antaiwan!

Peace,

Joe

[WhoAmI]

Growing up I have always been exposed to as I now am to the constant use of chapter and verse type teaching. What shows that this is the proper way to teach? When did it start?

As for my self i never found this constant use of chapter and verse type teaching as any form of proper teaching, but i do believe it to be MORE truthful in teaching, then anything else i have encountered in my Life.

The term "proper" follows rules or conventions, especially in social behavior from an etiquette society, that has little value for anything of Spiritual Truth, little wonder why we are not forming a society of heaven, nor a society of feel-good-lovey-dovey-doers.  We are becoming a Kingdom of Truth and Righteousness.

There is unfortunately nothing anyone can do to remedy your doubts, that is something between you and God.
So with out much ado about cutting and pasting Scriptures to show you the sign post pointing to Jesus for your Answers, i can only suggest you find a better one, if there is indeed a better one at that.

Peace
Rodger

You read way to much into a simple question posted to bring about discussion.

[WhoAmI]

Deut 8:2-3

And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Matt 4:4

But he [JESUS] answered and said, IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Deut 6:16

Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Matt 4:7

JESUS said unto him, IT IS WRITTEN AGAIN, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Ex. 34:14

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Matt 4:10

Then saith JESUS unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: FOR IT IS WRITTEN, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Isa 61 1-2

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD...

Luke 4:17-19

And there was delivered unto him [JESUS] the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah]. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where IT IS WRITTEN, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

1 John 4:17 

...because as he [JESUS] is, so are we in this world

John 17:1 & 16-23

These words spake JESUS...They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Marques

Why do you have "you shall not temp the Lord your God" in bold?

[WhoAmI]

Growing up I have always been exposed to as I now am to the constant use of chapter and verse type teaching. What shows that this is the proper way to teach? When did it start?

Could somebody define "chapter and verse type teaching" please?  I probably know what it is, but I don't remember ever using that specific phrase to refer to anything before.

Steve

It is just words to show what is commonly done. We have multitudes of people who tell you what the scriptures mean by using specified sentences out of books, letters etc. They quote chapter and verse. That is what I was talking about.

[mharrell08]

Why do you have "you shall not temp the Lord your God" in bold?

Because that was the scripture that Christ quoted. Just like all the others that are in bold. That was not a personal snipe at you or anything.



Marques

[WhoAmI]

Growing up I have always been exposed to as I now am to the constant use of chapter and verse type teaching. What shows that this is the proper way to teach? When did it start?

Could somebody define "chapter and verse type teaching" please?  I probably know what it is, but I don't remember ever using that specific phrase to refer to anything before.

Steve

Hi Steve,

I believe what is meant here by "chapter and verse teaching" is referring to a specific lesson or message written down, recorded and ultimately quoted from what we today call the bible. This predates the New Testament even though it was not until the 13th and 14th centuries that the works of Stephen Langton (Archbishop of Cantebury) and Cardinal Hugo of Saint Cher were distributed with the books of scriptures divided into chapter and verse. Previously the bible read much like any other book.

The first whole bible that most resembles what we presently have is the work of Robert Stephens in his Vulgate of 1555 (Geneva). This is a very brief overview of the history of the bible being divided into chapter and verse. For a much better, more comprehensive study please read the following;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

In regard to the question of when teachers began referencing a particular passage it appears that this practice came about shortly after Moses wrote the first five books of scripture by the Lord's command and inspiration.

Num 33:2  And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out.

Deu 28:58  If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name,THE LORD THY GOD;

Jos 1:8  This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous and then thou shalt have good success.

Here are a few early examples of OT prophets referring to earlier writings to drive home a point or teaching;

Jos 8:31  As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lifted up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD and sacrificed peace offerings.

1Ki 2:3  And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments and his judgments and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

2Ki 23:21  And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant. 

Ezr 3:2  Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brethren the priests and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brethren and built the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

If anyone is inspired to search this matter they will find many more examples of this practice (of quoting previous, older writings).

Peace,

Joe
 

I think the idea that what books (bible) people had at the time being read like any other book is important. I think people getting the whole idea was quite important versus a lot of the focus on only a couple of verses which is common place today. Skilled slicksters I think have always enjoyed the chapter and verse approach. And the assumption that the previous people were thinking along the same lines as the people who are currently teaching is often used to fool others or maybe the people were sincere but still wrong. I think the chapter and verse also allows people to use the bible as an attack tool more than themselves looking into their own beam in their eye. Others like to feed the book to others when they themselves have yet to fully consume it. Just some thoughts.

[WhoAmI]

Why do you have "you shall not temp the Lord your God" in bold?

Because that was the scripture that Christ quoted. Just like all the others that are in bold. That was not a personal snipe at you or anything.



Marques

Is "Get thee hence Satan" Jesus words? Matt 4:10  Just didn't understand why some were bolded and others not. No big deal.

[mharrell08]

Is "Get thee hence Satan" Jesus words? Matt 4:10  Just didn't understand why some were bolded and others not. No big deal.

I didn't bold that part of the scripture...I placed in bold the sections that were direct quotes from earlier scriptures and capitalized 'It is written' to emphasize where and what Christ was quoting.

As for your other thoughts...

2 Tim 3:16-17  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This is just a few reasons why the Lord give us his Word and teaches us to live by it. How some choose to live by it is another subject...



Marques

[hillsbororiver]

Here are a few early examples of OT prophets referring to earlier writings to drive home a point or teaching;

Jos 8:31  As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lifted up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD and sacrificed peace offerings.

1Ki 2:3  And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments and his judgments and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

2Ki 23:21  And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant. 

Ezr 3:2  Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brethren the priests and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brethren and built the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

Reading through this thread I am not really sure that the initial motive was inspired by a honest quest for an answer or for instigating another carnal debate. There have been many sincere answers/observations that have been overlooked in favor of nitpicking over why one word or phrase was highlighted or emboldened rather than what the essence of the message might be.

Perhaps if we all were schooled in memorizing the entire bible since we were able to talk there would be no need to have this book, this gift from God categorized into chapters and verses. Is it beyond reason to consider that in God's infinite wisdom and in accordance with His ultimate plan and purpose that this work of standardizing access to where a particular message or phrase can be located and verified by even the most ignorant, uneducated or naive seeker with relative ease? Can you imagine what a task it would be to verify where exactly it was written when one was quoted a phrase from scripture if we did not have chapter and verse to check and see if indeed it was a true quote?

Stop, look and meditate on the few examples listed above, tell me right away where exactly these words are written (or even if it was truly scriptural) without any chapter and verse references, I can tell you with all honesty I would take hours if not days to find just these few, I am sure I would have plenty of company in my search. Unless someone was schooled and tested in Old Testament scholarship they would have to accept the words of a man without the verification of scripture.

Why would any of us find this easy access to verification undesirable? Of course there will be (and are) wolves and vultures out there who attempt to manipulate the scriptures to suit their own purpose but just imagine how difficult it would be to sort through it all without references. It is not a pretty sight or thought.

Getting back to the schooling or memorizing portion of this post we all have our areas of expertise, mine happens to be in the building and troubleshooting of houses, I do not need a step by step categorization of what goes where and when in the proper order of building a house, without consulting a check list or an owners maintenance manual I can also diagnose where a particular problem stems from (with a high degree of accuracy) without actually going to the house. If an accurate evaluation of the stage of building or an existing problem is presented I can almost automatically tell you the steps that must be taken without having to reference chapter and verse of where this information can be found. On the other hand when a customer demands verification I am also capable of providing this information to help them understand the reasoning behind my decision/opinion/evaluation.

If in fact this is a humble search for wisdom perhaps it would be prudent to research the education process for the ancient Jews, the history of how their young were schooled in learning and memorizing the Torah and other writings, once that is understood perhaps we would all appreciate the divinely influenced work of categorizing the bible into an easier format for research and verification.       

Joe

[WhoAmI]

Here are a few early examples of OT prophets referring to earlier writings to drive home a point or teaching;

Jos 8:31  As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lifted up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD and sacrificed peace offerings.

1Ki 2:3  And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments and his judgments and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

2Ki 23:21  And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant. 

Ezr 3:2  Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brethren the priests and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brethren and built the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

Reading through this thread I am not really sure that the initial motive was inspired by a honest quest for an answer or for instigating another carnal debate. There have been many sincere answers/observations that have been overlooked in favor of nitpicking over why one word or phrase was highlighted or emboldened rather than what the essence of the message might be.

Perhaps if we all were schooled in memorizing the entire bible since we were able to talk there would be no need to have this book, this gift from God categorized into chapters and verses. Is it beyond reason to consider that in God's infinite wisdom and in accordance with His ultimate plan and purpose that this work of standardizing access to where a particular message or phrase can be located and verified by even the most ignorant, uneducated or naive seeker with relative ease? Can you imagine what a task it would be to verify where exactly it was written when one was quoted a phrase from scripture if we did not have chapter and verse to check and see if indeed it was a true quote?

Stop, look and meditate on the few examples listed above, tell me right away where exactly these words are written (or even if it was truly scriptural) without any chapter and verse references, I can tell you with all honesty I would take hours if not days to find just these few, I am sure I would have plenty of company in my search. Unless someone was schooled and tested in Old Testament scholarship they would have to accept the words of a man without the verification of scripture.

Why would any of us find this easy access to verification undesirable? Of course there will be (and are) wolves and vultures out there who attempt to manipulate the scriptures to suit their own purpose but just imagine how difficult it would be to sort through it all without references. It is not a pretty sight or thought.

Getting back to the schooling or memorizing portion of this post we all have our areas of expertise, mine happens to be in the building and troubleshooting of houses, I do not need a step by step categorization of what goes where and when in the proper order of building a house, without consulting a check list or an owners maintenance manual I can also diagnose where a particular problem stems from (with a high degree of accuracy) without actually going to the house. If an accurate evaluation of the stage of building or an existing problem is presented I can almost automatically tell you the steps that must be taken without having to reference chapter and verse of where this information can be found. On the other hand when a customer demands verification I am also capable of providing this information to help them understand the reasoning behind my decision/opinion/evaluation.

If in fact this is a humble search for wisdom perhaps it would be prudent to research the education process for the ancient Jews, the history of how their young were schooled in learning and memorizing the Torah and other writings, once that is understood perhaps we would all appreciate the divinely influenced work of categorizing the bible into an easier format for research and verification.       

Joe

What a shame. But if that is how you want to view it, go right ahead. Sorry I don't fit into your fixed idea of how a person should respond or ask questions.