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free will and God?
lovepeace:
i had this posted in testomonies and prayers category update on surgery...
i was wondering if any of you could help me with this situation...
ok....now i have read all of your responses of my question etc.
what i do not understand is this concept of free will and God not having a part of it.
ill explain further...
i had a philosophy class last semesrer in college and i learned SO much! a fantastic teacher taught me the differences and he let me make up my own mind whether or not i believe in free will or not. he even taught the concept of cause and effect (which, in fact, is one of my favorite topics to learn about )
any way...now some of you and also people i have spoken to say that man/women have no free will, but then some say that God has no part in it and He lets people make up their mind whether to sin or not.
THEN DOESNT THAT MEAN THEY HAVE FREE WILL?
i do not completely understand. i have read so much about this and been taught so many different things.
i do not believe that people have free will. i believe that everything has a cause. you do something because something or even someone caused you to do so.
for example: i came to this website because my boyfriend introduced it to me and i realized that the people on it could possibly understand me and hopefully not get frustrated with me when i tell them i do not understand things.
that is a cause and the effect is, well what i am doing at this moment.
so im just confused because God has no say in free will, He made people to the point where they can make up their own minds and if they decide to sin well then they do. BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt? why did He want me on this site? etc etc...
free will, i have learned, is a complicated subject and i am doing my best at trying to figure out exactly what i believe now. because now people are saying God has nothing to do with it, but HE KNOWS it is going to happen, so does that not mean He planned it? He wanted it to happen?
i hope i didnt confuse anyone, i tend to that when i type and type.
thank you for listening and God bless,
Chanelle
Marky Mark:
Chanelle, Hello.
--- Quote ---i hope i didnt confuse anyone, i tend to that when i type and type.
--- End quote ---
Ray has put a lot of effort and research into this very question that you ask .Lord knows I could not answer better than Brother Ray :). May I make a polite suggestion and ask of you to please start with http://bible-truths.com/ for a full realization of Spiritual truth to your inquiry.
Peace... Mark
smeacham:
My experience with philosophy is that it doesn't give you answers. It simply gives you more questions.
My conclusion is that it isn't worth learning. Plate, Aristotle, Wittgenstein, Kantward, and Berkeley for example - what does reading their works really teach us? There is no core body of knowledge to be learned. All you learn is what certain individuals said about various things. Most of the debate revolves around the definitions of words. Do we have "free will?" It depends on what you mean by "free."
Here, maybe I'll save somebody thousands of dollars and hours of effort: The real lesson to learn from philosophy is that that the concepts we use in everyday life are fuzzy, and break down if pushed too hard.
So, avoid philosophy. For something useful, focus on something much more precise. Math, for example. Or, even better, the Bible - but read all the words.
Steve
aqrinc:
Hi Chanelle,
Did you read only the excerpt or click on the link to Ray's paper. Coupled with your studies this
should be a no brainer for you; difference is here, you have an answer that is an Absolute.
Read: LOF Myth Of Free Will Exposed- Part D. http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
george. ???
--- Quote from: aqr on January 23, 2009, 04:58:01 PM ---
Hi Chanelle,
You can be sure that if He Was (not there) you are (not here). Yes our Prayers
for you were said; but God Only Decides when we die. Do not take my word for it;
Have your Bible with you to verify The Scripture Quoted if unsure still.
Read: LOF Myth Of Free Will Exposed- Part D. http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
Excerpt: The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME
God Almighty is responsible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME." Let's read it:
"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).
The implications of this verse are staggering. The very foundation of human psychology and theology crumbles under the weight of this declaration of God’s Word. This is undoubtedly one of the ten most profound Scriptures in the entire Bible.
If we are to be honest and believe this verse, then we must concede that absolutely NOTHING is left out God’s profound declaration except man’s anti-scriptural theory of "free will."
The word "season" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew word, z[e]man, and is defined in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary as: "APPOINTED season, occasion, time." And "purpose" is defined as: "pleasure, desire, matter." Sometimes rendered as "purpose" or "event."
Here’s a second witness to this grand declaration:
"Because to every purpose [matter or event] there is time and judgment..." (Ecc. 8:6).
And a third witness:
"…for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work" (Ecc. 3:17).
Here are a couple translations that make this verse a little clearer:
"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).
"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).
There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed." Where pray tell does "free will" fit into all this? It doesn’t. It clearly DOESN’T. Man has no free will. There is no such thing as free will. It is but the phantom of an "obscured heart" as we learned in Part C from Ecc. 3:11.
Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"
Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.
Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.
Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.
Then how can man have a free will?
Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.
Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:
[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).
AND:
[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).
Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.
Thanks Be To GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ for All we have and are. ;D
george. ;D
--- Quote from: lovepeace on January 23, 2009, 02:42:48 PM ---THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL THOSE WHO PRAYED FOR ME!
my surgery went well.
i am still very soar and a little drowsy, but it will go away in time.
thank you again for your prayers and gracious words.
im pretty sure God heard them and was there with me during my surgery.
at least, i hope He was.
thank you and God bless,
Chanelle
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
daywalker:
Hello Chanelle,
free will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will
choice: the act of choosing or selecting
We all make choices every day. This, however, is not 'free will'. Every choice [effect] that we make has a 'reason' [cause], and when an effect has a cause, it could not be otherwise. [as I'm sure you know]
But don't expect to fully comprehend this right away, as simple as it sounds reading it, it's very hard to fully understand.
God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own. All God has to do is 'cause' a pretty woman wearing a mini skirt to walk by a man and he will look, and lust over her completely on his own. God created us as carnal beings, as Ray likes to say, "we are sinning machines". That's what we do best! But when a man is able to hold back, and not lust over that pretty girl, it is because God has given them that ability, because all good things come from God. [James 1:17] Living righteous is spiritual, and therefore requires Spiritual Strength. [God is Spirit -- John 4:24]
Since God is the Creator of all, He is also the ultimate 'cause' of everything. God doesn't just sit and watch mankind, He is actively working all the time. When a person decides they want to give their heart and life to God, serve Him, and learn to become righteous, they make that choice. But only because God has brought about the circumstances to bring them to that decision.
May God guide you,
Christopher.
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