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free will and God?

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mharrell08:

--- Quote from: daywalker on January 26, 2009, 04:37:25 PM ---Hello Chanelle,

free will:  The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will

choice: the act of choosing or selecting


We all make choices every day. This, however, is not 'free will'. Every choice [effect] that we make has a 'reason' [cause], and when an effect has a cause,  it could not be otherwise. [as I'm sure you know]
But don't expect to fully comprehend this right away, as simple as it sounds reading it, it's very hard to fully understand.

God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own. All God has to do is 'cause' a pretty woman wearing a mini skirt to walk by a man and he will look, and lust over her completely on his own. God created us as carnal beings, as Ray likes to say, "we are sinning machines". That's what we do best! But when a man is able to hold back, and not lust over that pretty girl, it is because God has given them that ability, because all good things come from God. [James 1:17] Living righteous is spiritual, and therefore requires Spiritual Strength. [God is Spirit -- John 4:24]

Since God is the Creator of all, He is also the ultimate 'cause' of everything. God doesn't just sit and watch mankind, He is actively working all the time. When a person decides they want to give their heart and life to God, serve Him, and learn to become righteous, they make that choice. But only because God has brought about the circumstances to bring them to that decision.


May God guide you,

Christopher.

--- End quote ---


Glory to God...excellent post; well said  :)



Marques

aktikt:
I think the point of confusion is this statement:


--- Quote ---"God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own."
--- End quote ---

True, God doesn't force us to sin, but he does cause it.    As Ray has said, Who made testosterone anyway?
God has subjected man to testosterone, but it is still man who sins not God.   There is no free will about it.  We are caused to sin ultimately by God who subjected us to the testosterone.

See the below link
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm;

The below paragraph is an excerpt from Ray's letter to Dr. Kennedy linked to above.

Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.

Hope this helps,
Josh

daywalker:

--- Quote from: aktikt on January 26, 2009, 05:54:55 PM ---I think the point of confusion is this statement:


--- Quote ---"God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own."
--- End quote ---

True, God doesn't force us to sin, but he does cause it.    As Ray has said, Who made testosterone anyway?
God has subjected man to testosterone, but it is still man who sins not God.   There is no free will about it.  We are caused to sin ultimately by God who subjected us to the testosterone.

See the below link
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm;

The below paragraph is an excerpt from Ray's letter to Dr. Kennedy linked to above.

Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.

Hope this helps,
Josh


--- End quote ---

Hello Josh,

I also said this:

"God created us as carnal beings,..."

And in the next paragraph:

"Since God is the Creator of all, He is also the ultimate 'cause' of everything. God doesn't just sit and watch mankind, He is actively working all the time."


Respectfully,  ;)

Daywalker.

Patrick:

--- Quote from: lovepeace ---
BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt?


--- End quote ---


Chanelle, your question could also be asked in the form of, if God knew the terrorists were going to fly those planes into the Twin Towers, why did He not stop it?

Ray's answer from an email on the home page; Evil Serves Many Noble Purposes:
...
dude..calm down!!! jeez...your God loving isn't exactly helping me...:\ and if god exists why didn't he save all those people that were praying to him in the twin towers?

[Ray Replies]

Dear Nameless:

Thank you for your email and questions.

There are billions and billions of people that God has not yet saved. Your questions is more basic than just why didn't God save those in the twin towers.

All of such things are examples of evil. God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.

Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.

Evil is necessary for the production or development of good.  You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.

All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness.  One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.

All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!

May God be with you and grant you wisdom and understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray

...

Several others you may want to read are;
Is God To Blame For All This Suffering?,
Does God Force Us To Sin?,
Does God Tempt?


Isa 55:8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
Isa 55:10  And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11  So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

lilitalienboi16:
Hello Chanelle,

You have a very curiouse mind indeed which is a good thing as most do not question the things they have been taught nor the everday things they believe to be true.

You ask a question that many restle with when first coming to the topic of free will.

Free will, indeed is the ability to make a choice without any cause and as you have stated; you do not believe this to be true. Your confusion stems from the fact that; when we commit sin and than are told that it was not God that made us sin. How can than we not have free will? If God didn't cause it than we sinned of our own free will? Right?

Well the answer lies in the very definition of the word "free" will. We indeed have a will, we want to accomplish things, we want to do things, we do - do things. Yet the mere want of doing something does not make that will a "free" one. For we are caused as you said, into doing things.

In this life God is the ultimate cause of all things because He started it all. How could He not be? Yet when it comes to sin God created us so spiritually weak that we are absolutely incapable of doing any good without His spirit. Every good thing is from God. So take God away chanelle and you are left with darkness in man. Let me give you an example you can understand;

The earth has day and light because of the sun. Yet what happens when you take away the sun? The earth becomes dark. It's not that the earth ever had light on it's own but that the sun was creating the light for the earth. Well now apply that to yourself. You are the earth and God is the sun. You never had any light on your own it was because of God that you felt the light and the warmth of this light. Take God away and you are just as dark as the earth itself without the sun.

So when it comes to sinning we are the same. Take God away and we crumble so fast it's disheartening. Yet! We have hope because God will never leave us like this. He will never abandon us.

Ray uses the example of a bible and pornography. Put a bible infront of a man and a porno. If no one is around which do you think the man will open first? The bible or the porno? Well... it doesn't take a genious to figure this one out, just an honost one. Why does the man choose the porno though? Because it takes spiritual strength to do what is good and man is spiritualy weak. So unless God causes the man to do good He will fall flat on his face. Does this mean God causes us to do evil? No! Ultimately He is the cause becasue He created us but He takes full responsibility for that because He died for our sins. Not even you or I died for our sins but God did. So He is showing responsibilty but we wills till be held accountable for our actions in the end.

So to summerize for you; God brings us to a point in our lives where we actualy want to do what we do. [His responsibilty by dieng for our sins] So when we sin, We have been brought to this very point in our lives by God [His responsibilty] yet remember that we WANT to do it because God does not FORCE us to sin. So when we finaly SIN it is WE who are indeed sinning because we actualy WANT to and therefor OUR accountibility and not Gods!

I hope and pray i have spoken right by God for you on this mater as it is a very difficult one to understand and without Gods spirit almost impossible. I do still look for re-assurance in my understanding of it.

God bless,

Alex

P.S. I know this is one of those long posts you don't like to read but this subject is a HUGE one and nothing shorter than this could have been done. I wrote as i felt inspired =]

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