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Ecc 3:1, Prov 16:9, Free Will, the myth

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Amrhrasach:
Ecc 3:1  To everything--a season, and a time to every delight under the heavens:

Pro 16:9  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

VVVVVV

"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).

Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"
•   Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.
•   Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.
•   Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Then how can man have a free will?
   
Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.”

The Myth of Free-will exposed, part D.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

VVVV

I have listened to it repeatedly.  I have read it no less than five times….S.L.O.W.L.Y, which means I must be the dumbest around.  Actually God hasn’t opened my spiritual eyes and I continue to pray he does.   But, until then, the beast will not die and such a spiritual fight it is.

Help me correct my thinking and understanding please.  Am I to understand that scripture is saying:

(A)-every deed we’ve ever done has been PRE-APPROVED by God as merely part of his plan?  In other words, he just simply knows the choices we will make and he sort of stamps it as “and it is so”, “I’ll allow it” sort of thing?

…………or…………

(B)-the choices one has made in life, and resulting actions/consequences, were PRE-REQUIRED by God in his ultimate plan?  IE:  where one lives, who one marries, number of children, one’s employment at any particular time, and yes, even sins committed in one’s life?


If (B) is true, then, not only must I repent of the idol of Free-will, but, I also must repent of judging very harshly, not only myself, but also many significant others who have had influence in my life.

For those with greater understanding I’m sure this is a simple matter.  But to me and others like myself perhaps a jumping point.

Appreciate your understanding and help.

Gary

Kat:

Hi Gary,

I believe that to be able to comprehend this you must understgand that God is sovereign.  He has not "pre-approved" things to happen, He has 'perdestinated' everything just as it is.  How else would He know the end from the beginning.

Isa 46:10  declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;

I think this email will help you sort this out a bit.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---------------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray

deftarchangel:
You're not alone Gary.  Every so often, when I think I have this concept or truth nailed down, I read something, or someone tries to explain it, and it gets all messed up again!   ??? :D

I just wanted clarification on what you meant by option B.  What do you mean by "pre-requiring?" 

Also, for Kat, what is the difference between pre-approving something and pre-destinating something?  How does that differ from pre-ordaining?  Why are they not all synonymous?  Isn't it basically saying that such and such an action or event will take place at such and such appointed time?

Anyways, as perhaps Gary said, this is merely a jumping point (or re-jumping point) for me as well.  The hamster keeps stumbling on the wheel for me when it comes to this sort of thing.   ;D

Thanks.


Rob
 

aqrinc:
Gary,

Put another way, we are sinning machines. Left to our own devices we would make
Sodom and Gomorrah like like Eden. We are living an experience of evil to learn what
is good and right in GOD'S SIGHT.

(CLV)
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
Rom 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Rom 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."
Rom 8:24 For to expectation were we saved. Now expectation, being observed, is not expectation, for what anyone is observing, why is he expecting it also?
Rom 8:25 Now, if we are expecting what we are not observing, we are awaiting it with endurance."

george. :)

Amrhrasach:
Hi George, yes, sinning machines.  That I am, as we all are.  But by grace even the dumbest actions I’ve committed have been framed accordingly.  True?

VVVV

What do you mean by "pre-requiring?" 

Hi Rob, by “pre-requiring” (perhaps not the best of language/term), but what I mean is this.    God says it (whatever) will happen, therefore, it will happen.  See below response to Kat as more of an explanation of the “pre-required” explanation.

VVVV

Hi Kat, and thank you.

“He has not "pre-approved" things to happen, He has 'perdestinated' everything just as it is.”

“pre-destinate”:  to foreordain; predetermine:  (Webster dictionary)

To “pre-determine”.  Then, I am correct.  These many, many dumb decisions I’ve made are not dumb at all.  They are as according to plan.  God’s plan.   Therefore I must relax my judgment not only to myself but to others as well.  Not only do I sit “as a god” on the free-will issue, but also as unto judgment.  In other words, don’t judge anyone, including oneself, we do what God requires of us.   It’s hard to box all things neatly.  His thoughts are higher than ours.

If I’m correct on this, and I hope I am, then the “truth” does set one free.   We do what we do as part of his plan.  The place where we physically stand at any given time is all of God, not our own "chosen path"?   Regrets of what we think are are own choices then become a thing of the past……?

Gary

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