What should I say/have said?

[smeacham]

It all began innocently.  Now, it's not that I'm theologically cornered, or anything.  It's just that I am not trusting my own discernment right now in how/if I should respond.  Here's the conversation, in email, that took place today.

FIRST, a friend and coworker saw my computer wallpaper of a beautiful Bismuth crystal.  I explained all about it (I know a bit about metallurgy and may have been showing off a bit).  I later emailed her a link to a website that sold them, and has lots of pictures: http://www.bismuthcrystal.com/.

SECOND, she wrote back and said:

Thanks, Steve, for enlightening me about bismuth.  Very beautiful aspect of God's creative works!  Amazing!!

There might be need for caution because of what other people associate it with.  If anyone thinks the crystals have mystical power beyond its dimagnetic influence, that power could be demon-given.  Like those who might buy from the following site that sells bismuth for spiritual reasons.  http://crystalden.com.au 

"The mystical properties of Bismuth are supposed to be twofold...1) to ease the ache of loneliness and isolation 2) to help in the transition between planes (physical to spiritual or astral) Bismuth is also mentioned in the ancient Qabalah, although credit for discovery of this element is given to an unknown 15th century alchemist. People that seek this stone out for mystic reasons are focusing on the astral travel aspect. It's supposed to be like a tiny mystical booster rocket to another plane."

Now THAT was unexpected.  I had not been talking about so-called spiritual applications of crystals at all.

THIRD, I wrote to her:

God made humans spiritually weak.  We'll seek out all manner of things to worship until God drags us to Himself.  Christians and new-agers alike claim that their bondage to physical things are really spiritual:
...
A list of some idols of the heart - religious practices, the trinity, politics, church affiliation, pet doctrines, etc.
...
In that context, a crystal believed to be a "tiny mystical booster rocket to another plane" seems a minor thing, doesn't it?

I realize, I may be too cavalier in my last statement about it being a "minor thing."  I said it without any forethought, that's for sure.

FOURTH, she responded (in an email titled "It is written":

"God made humans spiritually weak."
     Genesis 1:27 and 31

"In that context, a crystal believed to be a 'tiny mystical booster rocket to another plane' seems a minor thing, doesn't it?"
     Luke 16:10, Psalm 111:10, Proverbs 8:13

Guys, I promise that I never intended this to happen.  There may, indeed, be an issue I need to look at myself on her second concern.  But, we're all familiar with her first one - that Adam and Eve were created perfect, and were not created spiritually weak.

FIFTH, I responded (some of it cut-and-pasted from Ray's writings - he has such a way with words):

I give greetings and pleasantries...
...
I know the scriptures I'm about to show are not understood the same way by you.  So, you can take this simply as insight into why I said what I said about spiritual weakness, or perhaps you may see more here, due to the foolishness of preaching.

God made humans spiritually weak
Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it.
Romans 8:20: For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope.
Romans 8:7: The carnal (natural/fleshy) mind is enmity against God; it is not subject to the laws of God, neither is it able.
Adam and Eve were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect - perfect for the purpose for which God created them.  They already had lust and disobedience in their hearts before the serpent approached them.  Eve lusted before she ever actually ate of the fruit.
...
I make some statements about physical vs. spiritual, Jesus in our hearts, minds, and spirits vs stone tablets,  etc.

FINALLY, she's responded:

The scriptures in Jeremiah and Romans describe our sinful state caused by inherited imperfection.  It affects our mind and natural-born tendencies because it is in our genes.  At the time of that original sinful disobedient act against Jehovah, human bodies have been corrupted and in a state of sin. 

It was not our loving Father's purpose for humans to disobey.  Obedience and respect for his property is what he expected. Genesis 3:11-13

It is our loving Father's purpose to change all that during Christ's millenial reign. Romans 8:21 

All praise to our Creator for providing the ransom, paying for human sin, and opening up an opportunity to live in that time and forever. Romans 8:37 

P.S.  My work time was over at 4:00, but wanted to respond in defense of my perfect God who would not create something for an unrighteous purpose.  You are absolutely right in knowing that I will not swerve from believing the logical truth in God's Word.

Free will, free will, free will.  AND - an accusation against my God, implying that He is unrighteous in what He has done.

She is a friend at work, and she is one of the most gentle, soft-spoken, and kind people you may ever meet.  She's also about 15 years my senior.  I'm wringing my hands and pulling my hair, here.  Should I respond?  How?  With what motives?  What is God's will in this situation?  Or, not to be trite, WWJD?

Thanks, guys.  It always seems I'm crying out for help here.  I appreciate your support and advice very much.

Steve

[EKnight]

I'm thinking maybe you should agree to disagree for the time being.  Just judging from the back and forth emails already, it appears it could be a war of words or better said, battle of the scriptures. 

Just my opinion.

Eileen

[mharrell08]

I'm thinking maybe you should agree to disagree for the time being.  Just judging from the back and forth emails already, it appears it could be a war of words or better said, battle of the scriptures. 

Just my opinion.

Eileen

I would agree with Eileen as well...no need to throw fuel to the flame.

I like this from one of Ray's paper (http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm):

You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God's Word. As salesmen are often taught: "You might win the argument, but loose the sale," so don't argue. And this: "He who is persuaded against his will; is of the same opinion still."


Marques

[Akira329]

I'm thinking maybe you should agree to disagree for the time being.  Just judging from the back and forth emails already, it appears it could be a war of words or better said, battle of the scriptures. 

Just my opinion.

Eileen

Hey Steve,
I would have to agree with Eileen
Your co-worker is using scripture to prove her false beliefs its probably best to back off.
Even if you show her some more scriptures that would force her to respond without lying, she will weasel out of those.

My advice, if she comes to you and wants to continue in discussing, be patient with her.
She seems to have a strong opinion on the subject.

Hey! I agree with Marques post too!

Antaiwan

[aqrinc]

Hi Steve,

I had a similar situation about 2 months ago. While browsing in a bookstore, i met someone who struck up a conversation with me. Somehow the conversation came around to Scripture and Christianity. The short version is; we talked about free will, burning in hell and his faith, then decided to stay on the subjects by email and further contact. Well after several email exchanges over about 2 weeks, he stopped answering because i would not agree that most of the world was going to burn in hell.

I always provided many Scriptures to support my points and asked that he supply any contradicting Scripture he could produce from The Bible. Then i emailed him a complete study on Aion and Aionos (from yahoo search). Still waiting for contact from him again (call me boy blue).

george.

[Dave in Tenn]

I see it this way, Steve.  She was trying to 'save' you from Crystal-worship.  You were trying to save her from Babylon. 

But in answering you, the very Scriptures she quoted are among those WE see as clear declaration of what we believe.  What's the difference? 

It's not really a battle of scripture at all, to me.  It's a question of seeing and not seeing.  Babylon isn't stupid (well, at least not all those blinded).  You know this as well or better than most of us.  Shoot her Romans 8 vs.20 and thank her for her concern about new-age and astral projection. 

In other words, I agree with Eileen too.      



 

[smeacham]

I see it this way, Steve.  She was trying to 'save' you from Crystal-worship.  You were trying to save her from Babylon. 
...
In other words, I agree with Eileen too.      

Crystal worship, eh?  Nothing could be further from the truth.  That's one reason this whole exchange just blew me away.

Eileen, you're brilliant.  I guess I knew the answer already, but needed a sanity check.

Steve

[musicman]

Perhaps she's right about the Bismuth Crystal.  Sounds like possible idoloty.  Better give it to a Catholic to hang onto.  They love object worship.

[EKnight]

I'm not brilliant.  In fact, as I started to post, I thought maybe I should just stay out of this one, and that fleeting thought left as soon as it came and the typing continued.  So there you have it. Not me at all.

Eileen

[Vangie]

You all did so great here!  My first impression (with my warped sense of humor) was to say, "let's consult the magic crystal 8 ball".  But then I realized, oops don't go there now--it's not off topic and these guys are being serious and sincere.  My stupid comment would NOT have been funny right then!  Eileen's comment was soooo much more spiritually mature.

I thought the other lady was onto something at first, but then....not.  I agree with you Steve, it's great to get the multitude of counselors to make sure our discernment is on track!  Thanks to all you guys, but most of all to our Most Excellent Counselor and Father.  It's so great to be here with you all in our Father's will via our Saviour, Jesus Christ. 

In His Love,
Vangie

[musicman]

"let's consult the magic crystal 8 ball". 

Chrystal Ball?  I laugh at your fake magic propaganda.  With all of those stars in the sky to use for our carnal prediction mechanism?  Please, I just read a message in the stars.  It said "forget the stupid Chrystal ball".  Ha!!  I'm calling the psychic hotline for confirmation on this one.

[kenny]

Steve
Mat 5:9 God blesses those who work for peace, for they will be called the children of God.
Mat 15:10 Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, "Listen to what I say and try to understand
we walk in peace
if they didn't hear they can't under stand

[DizzyD]

Hello all,
           i just had to put my 2 cents in on this one

Eileen and others are right in letting it go unless pushed into expanding thoughts.

But i have thoughts on this exchange she stated:
  "The scriptures in Jeremiah and Romans describe our sinful state caused by inherited imperfection."

   My question is: does she not see contridiction in that statement. How did we inherit imperfection from a perfect creation?

  How does a "perfect" creation from a perfect Creator corrupt without  the perfect Creator expecting the corruption

         It's like Marques posted: "You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God's Word."

  When it is in Gods' timing they will see

                                                  Peace and Gods' love

                                                                   Bud
                 

[Linny]

Hi Steve,
All the responses are great.
I try to think about it this way...It is like trying to force a blind man to see the obvious thing you are holding up in front of his face. It is SO obvious. BUT, you can see.

What a lesson in patience and in shutting our mouths when we just want them to see! God has closed her eyes for now.

Blessings, Lin

[smeacham]

Here's my final response to her, Monday morning.  I took the unanimous advice from y'all and some from Harry too (you remember Harry, right?)  She came by in person to say thank you.

So, I pass that on here...
Thank you!
Steve

Hi ***,

***, I feel I may have come across sounding defensive in my emails to you on Friday.  I can be passionate when it comes to these things, and I can get that way without even realizing it.  I hope I didn't offend you with any of my remarks.  All I really wanted to do was share some pretty pictures of Bismuth crystals, not argue scriptures.

I think we already knew that we share common scriptures, but we understand them differently on topics such as God's sovereignty, the purpose and origin of evil, and God's plan from beginning to end.  No email or human being can change these differences between us.  Only God can do that.  Fortunately, God also chooses to give us love for one another in Jesus.  Let's hold on to that as well as God's Word.

So, so long as God has revealed to you a truth in His Word, you should certainly hold on to it.  When God reveals something new or different, test it to see if it is true, then do what Jesus teaches us to do.  I'll do the same.  When you read scripture, be sure to read all the words in a scripture, especially the little words like 'if,' 'because,' 'all,' 'nothing,' and 'every.'  Don't read words that are not there (e.g. 'opportunity' in Romans 3:37 or translation mistakes).  Never take someone else's word for it.  Look for yourself.  I'll do the same.  In the end, God will make all things right.

Steven

[Ninny]

Steve, no matter what those crystals represent to some people I thought they were beautiful! Too bad that people take things to the extreme, huh? Worshiping the creation instead of the Creator? Sad...
There are many beautiful things in God's creation, but we don't have to worship them! It should bring one closer to the Creator of the beauty! She should have just said, "Wow! nice crystals!" But hey, at least you got to know her a little better, huh?
Kathy

[smeacham]

Steve, no matter what those crystals represent to some people I thought they were beautiful! Too bad that people take things to the extreme, huh? Worshiping the creation instead of the Creator? Sad...
There are many beautiful things in God's creation, but we don't have to worship them! It should bring one closer to the Creator of the beauty! She should have just said, "Wow! nice crystals!" But hey, at least you got to know her a little better, huh?
Kathy

Indeed, Kathy.  We've worked together for years to ensure handicapped people, especially the blind, have equal access to the stuff our agency makes.

The "attitude," if indeed she had one, may be because I stopped accepting the JW's in our home a while back.  She wasn't one of them, but she is a JW.

Steve

[Ninny]

Oh, now that does make sense! We used to have some friends when we lived in Sierra Vista, Az we were in the Army stationed at Ft Huachuca. We left there and went to Hawaii and met up with them again! Well, things were different when we met up with them again! We used to visit in each other's houses and have dinner together. At that time I was a Seventh Day Adventist and in the time that had passed they had become JW's, they never associated with us again! I went to the library to get some information on JW's and I guess they were instructed that unless you were trying to recruit someone for the church you were not to socialize with them! I may be wrong about this, but it made sense to me for their drastic change.
Interesting, huh?
Kathy

[child in the making]

Greetings Steve

Fret not be of "Good" cheer the Will of the Father is being done.

Bismuth is also mentioned in the ancient Qabalah, although credit for discovery of this element is given to an unknown 15th century alchemist

Your co-worker had mentioned this word which I have been perplexed about.  It has crossed my path more than once lately.

There is a documentary about the sun aligning with the earth in the year 2012 and the destruction of the entire enhabited earth that it will cause. This reminds me of a statement by Peter the Apostle about the elements being destroyed with fervent heat and being more concerned about the spiritual than that of the natural.

When commenting on Nostradomus some ancient prediction guy they said he was an alchemist.  When I looked up the word in an old websters dictionary it had nothing to do with futuretelling.  It just refered to making new metals from mixing other metals in nature. Nothing about anything "spiritual" at all. Obviously someone is making things up again and again and again etc.  No wonder Paul said

Ro3(Concordant) What, then, is the prerogative of the Jew, or what the benefit of circumcision?
2 Much in every manner. For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
3 For what if some disbelieve? Will not their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God?
4 May it not be coming to that! Now let God be true, yet every man a liar, even as it is written: "That so Thou shouldst be justified in Thy sayings, And shalt be conquering when Thou art being judged."
5 Now if our injustice is commending God's righteousness, what shall we declare? Not that God Who is bringing on indignation is unjust! (As a man am I saying it.)
6 May it not be coming to that! Else how shall God be judging the world?
7 Yet if the truth of God superabounds in my lie, for His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner,
8 and why not say, according as we are calumniated(?) and according as some are averring that we are saying, that "We should be doing evil that good may be coming"? -- whose judgment is fair.
9 What, then? Are we privileged? Undoubtedly not, for we previously charge both Jews and Greeks to be all under sin,
10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just" -- not even one.
11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God.
12 "All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!"
13 "A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed.
15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood.
16 "Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways,
17 And the way of peace they do not know."
18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

Looking to the Author and Finisher "Truth"

Child in the Making

[judith collier]

Nostrodamus was an alchemist and also a seer. There are many, many books about him, nobody was lying. judy