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as many as thou hast given me
legoman:
Hi,
I'm looking for clarification of this verse:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal [aionios] life to as many as thou hast given him.
Here is my understanding: The father has given Jesus power over all flesh. And he will give aionios life to "as many as thou hast given" to him.
Is this phrase "as many as thou hast given" referring to the firstfruits only? ie. the chosen elect? Even though the Father has given Jesus power over all, he has only been given the chosen few for aionios life, right?
Its interesting because some universalists use this verse to show that all will get eternal [aionios] life, since Father has given Jesus power over all - I don't believe this is quite correct.
Likewise Calvinists will use this verse to show that God only gives eternal life to the elect, which is not correct either.
Any clarification available in Ray's papers?
Kevin
Marky Mark:
Kevin,
Is not Jesus the Christ the savior of all men?I do not see anywhere in Scripture that Jesus is only the Savior of the elect.I would have to think that Jesus is talking to the Father about the few chosen on down through the ages. Starting with his Apostles but also His disciples.The elect are called out first, in the Truths of the Word.
John 17
1 These things spoke Jesus; and, lifting his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour has come: glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee,
2 as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that to all that thou hast given him he may give them life eternal.
3 But eternal life is this, that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth, having finished the work that thou gavest me to do;
5 and now, Father, glorify thou me with thyself with the glory that I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world. Thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word;
7 now they know that all things whatever thou hast given me are from thee;
8 for the words that thou gavest me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known in truth that I came forth from thee, and have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for those that thou hast given me, for they are thine,
10 and all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I have been glorified in them.
11 And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in my name that thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we.
12 When I was with them I kept them in thy name that thou hast given me, and I have guarded them, and no one of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the Scripture may be fulfilled.
13 But now I come to thee, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word, and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou take them out of the world, but that thou keep them from the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou didst send me into the world, I sent them into the world;
19 and for them I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in the truth.
20 But not for these only do I pray, but also for those that believe on me through their word,
21 that they all may be one, as thou. Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory that thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one as we are one:
23 I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, as to what thou hast given me, I would that they also be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which thou hast given me because thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 Righteous Father, though the world has not known thee, yet I have known thee, and these have known that thou didst send me;
26 and I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them.
Peace...Mark
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: legoman on March 09, 2009, 12:18:25 PM ---Hi,
I'm looking for clarification of this verse:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal [aionios] life to as many as thou hast given him.
Here is my understanding: The father has given Jesus power over all flesh. And he will give aionios life to "as many as thou hast given" to him.
Is this phrase "as many as thou hast given" referring to the firstfruits only? ie. the chosen elect? Even though the Father has given Jesus power over all, he has only been given the chosen few for aionios life, right?
Its interesting because some universalists use this verse to show that all will get eternal [aionios] life, since Father has given Jesus power over all - I don't believe this is quite correct.
Likewise Calvinists will use this verse to show that God only gives eternal life to the elect, which is not correct either.
Any clarification available in Ray's papers?
Kevin
--- End quote ---
Hello Kevin,
Yes, I believe the 2005 conference, 'What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?' goes over what your are saying. The Chosen & Faithful will have eonian life or life in the next age...which is to mean 'to rule & reign with Christ' at His return. The rest of humanity will be raised into eonian judgment:
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame and everlasting [eonian] contempt [judgment]
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [eonian] life, and shall not come into condemnation [judgment]; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting [eonian] life.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [eonian] punishment [judgment]: but the righteous into life eternal [eonian].
2 Thess 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting [eonian] destruction [judgment] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Only God's chosen have life in the next age or eonian life...the wicked will only have judgment at the Great White Throne of Judgment. This eonian life for the Elect is to be vivified with spiritual bodies:
1 Cor 15:51-53 ...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive [Gk. zoopoieo (of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life)]
Hope this helps,
Marques
legoman:
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on March 09, 2009, 04:26:21 PM ---Kevin,
Is not Jesus the Christ the savior of all men?I do not see anywhere in Scripture that Jesus is only the Savior of the elect.I would have to think that Jesus is talking to the Father about the few chosen on down through the ages. Starting with his Apostles but also His disciples.The elect are called out first, in the Truths of the Word.
--- End quote ---
Agreed. My question was more to clarify the meaning of that particular verse (John 17:2).
I believe that verse is showing that the "as many as thou hast given" is only speaking of the elect, as you suggest as well. Marques point out the scriptures that confirms this as well.
That's not to say that Jesus doesn't save the non-elect as well (although many people would suggest that).
It was more of a "curiosity question" as I've seen a few UR believers suggest that all people will get eternal/aionios life because of that verse John 17:2.
--
Here is the confusing part for me:
All things have been given to Christ (John 3:35, John 13:3). But only "as many as thou hast given" shall receive aionios life (John 17:2).
So even though all things have been given to Christ, only those given specifically for aionios life receive aionios life (ie. the elect).
Thanks,
Kevin
aqrinc:
Hi Kevin,
How about these translations, seems to make a difference on the proper parsing. Oops Matt 28:18 ???
Mat 28:18 (KJV)
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:18 (CLV)
And, approaching, Jesus speaks to them saying, "Given to Me was all authority in heaven and on the earth."
Joh 17:2 (GW)
After all, you've given him authority over all humanity so that he can give eternal life to all those you gave to him.
Joh 17:2 (CLV)
according as Thou givest Him authority over all flesh, that everything which Thou hast given to Him, He should be giving it to them, even life eonian."
Joh 17:2 (GNB)
For you gave him authority over all people, so that he might give eternal life to all those you gave him.
george. ;D
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