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Author Topic: Where the worm dieth not  (Read 2318 times)

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Akira329

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Where the worm dieth not
« on: April 16, 2009, 11:36:43 PM »

Something I have been thinking about for a while now and would love you guys feedback!!
Pro 27:17  Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Job 17:14  I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
Job 24:20  The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Job 25:6  How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Psa 22:6  But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Isa 41:14  Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 51:8  For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
Isa 66:24  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jon 4:7  But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

Remember the thread that Joe started:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6189.0.html

Spurious passages:
Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44  spurious
Mar 9:45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell spurious
Mar 9:46  spurious
Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell spurious
Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49  For every one shall be salted with fire spurious
Mar 9:50  Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Questions:
What does the worm represent?
Why does this spiritual attribute never die?
Why is the fire not quenched? Or gone out or extinguished?
The fire will not go out until what is achieved? Till the man is purified! God does not put us through the fire without purpose. It’s not physical anyway.
But the worm would have to die when the purpose for which it was made is achieved? Correct?
The worm(unclean spirit???) feeds on the gourd(comparison of the world), the flesh of men, the carnality of men
Salt is then applied to the man, can the worm survive? It dies, it shrivels up.
Salt drys up the moisture in the worm and it can’t live without moisture?
So what happens to the man who has been salted, he is dry ground ready for the flood of water(living water which is the word of God).

Isa 44:3  For I will pour water upon him(any man) that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
Isa 53:2  For he(Jesus) shall grow up before him(Father) as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground(men): he(Jesus) hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him(Jesus), there is no beauty that we should desire him(Jesus).

Is this a spiritual match?
Eze 19:10  Thy mother is like a vine in thy blood, planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters.
Eze 19:11  And she had strong rods for the sceptres of them that bare rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches.
Eze 19:12  But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them.
Eze 19:13  And now she is planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground.
Eze 19:14  And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, which hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod to be a sceptre to rule. This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.

Thristy:
Joh 19:28  After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29  Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Is this event on the cross a type? Death before glory?? Thirst before being filled with the water of life??

Rom 12:20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Some things I have been thinking about. I sure more is to come………………
Tell me what you guys think.

Antaiwan


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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Where the worm dieth not
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2009, 01:20:22 AM »


Hi Antaiwan,

This is an interesting subject.  I found a number of sections that are below from in the article no. 16. D4 'Gehenna Fire Judgment.' 

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm

Gehenna symbolized and represented to the Jewish mind, JUDGMENT. And as such Jesus uses it in describing His judgments first upon His followers, and then upon the whole world. "Fire and worms" do not present a pleasant picture, and the Judgments of Christ, likewise, are not pleasant:

"Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised [trained] thereby" (Heb. 12:11).

The "eternal fire" of Jude 7 is no longer burning in Sodom and Gomorrah, seeing that it was not "eternal" but "eonian" and therefore is no longer burning. Many natural forest fires through history have never been quenched, but they are no longer burning. The fire from God in Jerusalem as recorded in Jer. 17:27, likewise is no longer burning, Yet it was not extinguished. They burned themselves out. It merely means that these fires will not be put out or extinguished, or quenched, but will cease upon completion of their purpose.

So also is the case with their "worms that die not." There was fire and worms in the garbage dump of Gehenna, and they both had a part to play in the destruction of the flesh of animals and dead criminals (plus other garbage). But none were immortal or eternal. One stupid web site on the subject of hell, which people send me continually, states that the long 6 foot tube worms at the bottom of the ocean found around smokers (vents from subterranean lava), are the worms of hell which they say is under the crust of the earth. Nonsense, the worms of these Scriptures are specifically identified.

WORM DIES NOT:

The word "worm" appears in most bibles three times in Mark 9. However, Mark 9:48 is the only time it appears in the earliest and best Greek manuscripts. Mark 9:44 is spurious, and Mark 9:45b ("...into the fire that never shall be quenched") and 9:46 are all spurious. The one time it is used in verse 44, it is a quotation from Isa. 66:24. Worm is translated from the Hebrew word Itola, and is defined as "a maggot." It's one time use in the Greek is from skolex, and also is defined as 'a maggot.' These are not tube worms at the bottom of the ocean, but rather maggots. And as any school boy knows, maggots are not immortal, but rather in a few short days turn into common house flies, which then lay more eggs on garbage, produce more maggots which then produce more flies to lay more eggs... And hence, they do not die [out] but just keep reproducing over and over. I am sure that some of the flies at your last picnic may have been descendants of the very maggots of which Jesus spoke of from the Gehenna city garbage dump at Jerusalem.

Now then, what was the purpose of these maggots and fire in the valley of Gehenna? To destroy that which is putrid and worthless; to purge; to purify the city of its garbage. That was their physical purpose and Jesus has the same thing in mind when He uses these symbols, word pictures, and analogies to represent His spiritual sin-purging judgments.

We know that Peter said, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the House of God..." (I Pet. 1:17); and that Paul said, "For if we would judge ourselves..." (I Cor. 10:31); and Jesus said that we ourselves must "Agree with our adversary quickly," and we ourselves must "pluck it [our eye] out and cast it from us," etc. But do all these things constitute being judged by "worms and fire?" Absolutely. Gehenna fire does not represent eternal torture in literal flames upon the wicked. It represents cleansing and purging of His called and chosen Elect, now, in this Church age.

Listen: We like Jesus are to be a Sacrifice:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God..." (Rom. 12:1).

And just what is it that Jesus will do to all and every "sacrifice?"

"For everyone shall be salted with fire." (Mark 9:49) 

And just "who" is the everyone of this verse? Read the previous verse. The everyone is all those for whom "...their worms dies not and the fire is not quenched" (Verse 48). And just "who" is the their of this verse? Read the previous verse. The their is "And if thine eye..." The thine is YOU. You are the thine, and the their, and the everyone which shall be "...salted with fire."

And just when will this fire of which Jesus spoke, start burning?

"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49).

"Fire, came I to cast upon the earth,-and what can I wish, if, already, it hath been, kindled?" (Rotherham).

This spiritual Gehenna purging and purifying fire of Christ was already kindled when He called His disciples, and it has been with us ever since, and I can personally testify that it is with us today in every life that Jesus is purging from the rotten flesh of the carnal mind.
v
v
On the very same occasion recorded in Mark 9, we have two more additions to this teaching: The mention of "their worms die not," and "everyone shall be salted with fire."

We already discussed the meaning of these worms earlier in this paper. But this added phrase of our Lord is very instructive. Notice again that Jesus is speaking to His twelve apostles (Mark 9:35), not the multitudes. So, when He states that, "everyone shall be salted with fire" in Verse 49, He is telling His Apostles that THEY will be salted with fire. Hence this Gehenna fire cannot be eternal, but it is good, "Salt IS GOOD" (Verse 50).

This is admittedly a strange phrase, as technically we do not "salt" anything "with fire." It is a kind of play on words. As we salt food to bring out its best, so God will salt us with fire, to bring out our best. But once more, it is not eternal torture, it is temporary purification.
--------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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Akira329

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  • "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."
Re: Where the worm dieth not
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2009, 09:14:12 PM »


Hi Antaiwan,

This is an interesting subject.  I found a number of sections that are below from in the article no. 16. D4 'Gehenna Fire Judgment.' 

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm

Gehenna symbolized and represented to the Jewish mind, JUDGMENT. And as such Jesus uses it in describing His judgments first upon His followers, and then upon the whole world. "Fire and worms" do not present a pleasant picture, and the Judgments of Christ, likewise, are not pleasant:

"Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised [trained] thereby" (Heb. 12:11).

The "eternal fire" of Jude 7 is no longer burning in Sodom and Gomorrah, seeing that it was not "eternal" but "eonian" and therefore is no longer burning. Many natural forest fires through history have never been quenched, but they are no longer burning. The fire from God in Jerusalem as recorded in Jer. 17:27, likewise is no longer burning, Yet it was not extinguished. They burned themselves out. It merely means that these fires will not be put out or extinguished, or quenched, but will cease upon completion of their purpose.

So also is the case with their "worms that die not." There was fire and worms in the garbage dump of Gehenna, and they both had a part to play in the destruction of the flesh of animals and dead criminals (plus other garbage). But none were immortal or eternal. One stupid web site on the subject of hell, which people send me continually, states that the long 6 foot tube worms at the bottom of the ocean found around smokers (vents from subterranean lava), are the worms of hell which they say is under the crust of the earth. Nonsense, the worms of these Scriptures are specifically identified.

WORM DIES NOT:

The word "worm" appears in most bibles three times in Mark 9. However, Mark 9:48 is the only time it appears in the earliest and best Greek manuscripts. Mark 9:44 is spurious, and Mark 9:45b ("...into the fire that never shall be quenched") and 9:46 are all spurious. The one time it is used in verse 44, it is a quotation from Isa. 66:24. Worm is translated from the Hebrew word Itola, and is defined as "a maggot." It's one time use in the Greek is from skolex, and also is defined as 'a maggot.' These are not tube worms at the bottom of the ocean, but rather maggots. And as any school boy knows, maggots are not immortal, but rather in a few short days turn into common house flies, which then lay more eggs on garbage, produce more maggots which then produce more flies to lay more eggs... And hence, they do not die [out] but just keep reproducing over and over. I am sure that some of the flies at your last picnic may have been descendants of the very maggots of which Jesus spoke of from the Gehenna city garbage dump at Jerusalem.

Now then, what was the purpose of these maggots and fire in the valley of Gehenna? To destroy that which is putrid and worthless; to purge; to purify the city of its garbage. That was their physical purpose and Jesus has the same thing in mind when He uses these symbols, word pictures, and analogies to represent His spiritual sin-purging judgments.

We know that Peter said, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the House of God..." (I Pet. 1:17); and that Paul said, "For if we would judge ourselves..." (I Cor. 10:31); and Jesus said that we ourselves must "Agree with our adversary quickly," and we ourselves must "pluck it [our eye] out and cast it from us," etc. But do all these things constitute being judged by "worms and fire?" Absolutely. Gehenna fire does not represent eternal torture in literal flames upon the wicked. It represents cleansing and purging of His called and chosen Elect, now, in this Church age.

Listen: We like Jesus are to be a Sacrifice:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God..." (Rom. 12:1).

And just what is it that Jesus will do to all and every "sacrifice?"

"For everyone shall be salted with fire." (Mark 9:49) 

And just "who" is the everyone of this verse? Read the previous verse. The everyone is all those for whom "...their worms dies not and the fire is not quenched" (Verse 48). And just "who" is the their of this verse? Read the previous verse. The their is "And if thine eye..." The thine is YOU. You are the thine, and the their, and the everyone which shall be "...salted with fire."

And just when will this fire of which Jesus spoke, start burning?

"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49).

"Fire, came I to cast upon the earth,-and what can I wish, if, already, it hath been, kindled?" (Rotherham).

This spiritual Gehenna purging and purifying fire of Christ was already kindled when He called His disciples, and it has been with us ever since, and I can personally testify that it is with us today in every life that Jesus is purging from the rotten flesh of the carnal mind.
v
v
On the very same occasion recorded in Mark 9, we have two more additions to this teaching: The mention of "their worms die not," and "everyone shall be salted with fire."

We already discussed the meaning of these worms earlier in this paper. But this added phrase of our Lord is very instructive. Notice again that Jesus is speaking to His twelve apostles (Mark 9:35), not the multitudes. So, when He states that, "everyone shall be salted with fire" in Verse 49, He is telling His Apostles that THEY will be salted with fire. Hence this Gehenna fire cannot be eternal, but it is good, "Salt IS GOOD" (Verse 50).

This is admittedly a strange phrase, as technically we do not "salt" anything "with fire." It is a kind of play on words. As we salt food to bring out its best, so God will salt us with fire, to bring out our best. But once more, it is not eternal torture, it is temporary purification.
--------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat




Hey Kat I had no idea Ray had covered this subject!
His statement that I highlighted more than enough helped me to understand the purpose of the worm and of course the fire!!
Great stuff!

Thanks!
Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

judith collier

  • Guest
Re: Where the worm dieth not
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2009, 05:12:30 AM »

You know as a catholic I was taught about purging but usually the non-catholics got it wrong what we believed. My upbringing made it very easy to accept the "chastening" from God on this earth only we used to call it purging(like an early pugatory)Then after the second death(we also believed in dying to selves as the first) some would have to go through this purging(purgatory) after the second death. So, I was well equipped when this subject came along. But, I guess they think a lot of people would skip the purging and go straight to hell (hell, not as we know here)
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