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Choices vs. Destiny
Roy Martin:
Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
If Jesus were to tell me that I am going to die in a car crash tomorrow, my carnal mind would say," I just wont go anywhere tomorrow," but none the less, I would die tomorrow.
When Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times, there isn't a choice that Peter could have made to stop it.
We have been given many rules and instructions that seems to involve making a right or wrong choice.
Is it really us choosing or just walking out a destiny preordained?
When Jesus interceded for Simon and kept Satan from attacking him, was he stopping predestination or a future event? What are we to know from that verse?
How can there be a right or wrong choice?
I hope that some one can answer my question better than I'm asking it.Also I am not in objection with the truth I have learned here. Only seeking knowledge and understanding.
We know that God is working in us all things for the good, and that we cant do anything outside of His will or change His will or plan. Where does choice come in? I see no choice at all.
Peace and love
Roy
musicman:
Would you like vanilla or chocolate ice cream? Make your choice. Not a free choice, but a choice.
Q:
Look at it this way....
We are hung up on right and wrong...
True it has meaning and value but,,,,
The real reason we are her is to learn how to become as God,,,, we're in school ;D
Good is what God is evil is the way we learn good.
Its not about right or wrong so much as to teach us...
When we make a choice its how we are directed to learn,,, Only God is good and if He will everyone could be good or repentent in a secong as Paul was....
Hope this helps
Q
Kat:
Hi Roy,
--- Quote ---Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
--- End quote ---
I have brought up a few emails that I thonk might help you with this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4827.msg37299.html#msg37299 ---
It appears to most of humanity that if God Sovereign and man has no "free" will or "free" choice (that is, there is a cause for everything, and therefore whatever is caused to happen can not NOT HAPPEN, hence it is not "free"), then man has no reasoning abilities, cannot make a choice of what he prefers, and is therefore nothing but a mindless robot.
The reality is that we do have reasoning abilities, and we do choose what we prefer. You have now present a new twist that suggests neither the deceived person nor the enlightened one can know for sure what is truth, because his realization of truth is only that which God permits or allows him to have through his life experiences. I am not sure how you came to this conclusion. Try this: There was a time when most people (albeit not all) believed that the earth was flat. Now they really believed that and they really were deceived. But now that we fly space shuttles AROUND the earth in all directions, we know for a fact that the earth is a sphere. The TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.
The deceived have NO PROOF that they have a "free will," but the enlightened do HAVE PROOF that man does not have a free will.
In fact we have two proofs: The Word of God and Nature--science. Even if there is a supposed "law of uncertainty" or "randomness," it still would not allow for "freedom" of the will or "freedom" of choice. If a person's thoughts are "free" to come into existence without any cause, from where is it that they come? You may reply: "Why they come from ME and me alone." Oh really? But from WHERE is "you?" From your mind? Your will? Your WHAT? Did you think about thinking the thought before it came into existence? All you do is take the cause back to a more distance CAUSE. What CAUSED your thinking to think a thought? "THINGS" cause you to think thoughts. Thoughts do not come from "out of the blue." And if they did, then we have merely pushed the real "cause" back a little further, only this time the cause is "the BLUE"--whatever that is.
If Science proves something AND THE WORD OF GOD proves something, then it's true, and that is how you can KNOW that it is true. If you re-read my paper on "free will," you will be given both Scientific and Scriptural proof as to what the truth is on this matter. "THY WORD IS TRUTH" (John 17:17). Hope this helps your understanding.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html -----
I understand that these things are "spiritually discerned," and that people frustrate themselves over trying to understand spiritual things with a carnal mind. When a man rapes a little girl, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD! When one prays to be rich and famous, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD! ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly. God created man--man SINS, God if free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.
And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart. And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action. Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html -------------------
Not having fee will or free choice does not mean that you do not HAVE a will or choices. Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING. We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN. The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own. It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are. NO MAN will tell God He doesn't want to repent when God tells him: "NOW is the time for you to repent, and YOU WILL REPENT"!!
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------------
OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE. Whose do think it is? When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what? It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE. Can you now understand it?
Do you still think you are a robot? I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.
God be with you,
Ray
Samson:
--- Quote from: musicman on April 21, 2009, 07:50:07 AM ---Would you like vanilla or chocolate ice cream? Make your choice. Not a free choice, but a choice.
--- End quote ---
Hi Roy,
With every single choice we make, there is a prior cause that influences or causes that choice,
whether it's obvious to us or not. The point that Ray stresses in his Free Will Articles is that
none of the choices we make are Free. Mainly, because we can't control the outcome of our
choices. We don't know exactly what the results of our choices will be, we might have a general
idea of what usually results from these choices, like the example illustrated above by Musicman
regarding the choice of Vanilla or Chocolate ice cream, but initially after trying each flavor, the cause
might have been: " I don't like the taste of Chocolate or the Chocolate Ice cream irritates my stomach
or Bowels. These two reasons are the cause that might have led to choosing Vanila, instead.
Also, in Peters case, he initially might have had the desire to be Faithfull to Christ, but fear of Men
was the cause in him denying Christ in that passage of Scripture. Ray has mentioned that the
Cause/Effect principle is a Scientific Fact and has never been disproven Scripturally or Scientifically.
Hope this helps, if not, my Apologies, Samson.
P.S. See Kats response too and re-read all of Rays material on Free Will and choices.
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