> General Discussions
Choices vs. Destiny
daywalker:
Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!
Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.
God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.
Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.
God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...
Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.
- Daywalker.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 21, 2009, 11:36:08 AM ---Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!
Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.
God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.
Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.
God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...
Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.
- Daywalker.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely beautiful post! Short, simple and to the point. Amazing! Thanks for that, it was a blessing to read and be reminded these little bits of truth.
God bless,
Alex
EKnight:
Actually, I thought that these events were preordained by God too. I thought that is why Ray emphasizes
Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
And I thought preordination was the reason for most peoples doubts on free-will saying that why then are they accountable if it couldn't have been any different because God caused these preordained things to happen as they do.
What am I missing here?
Eileen
AK4:
Well there are several verses that mention predestinated/preordained and even others that allud to it also as in the case of pharoah being raised up for the purpose God used him for and like the person Jesus healed to show His power. Even i think it was Ezekiel or Isaiah that He says formed Him in the womb for the exact purpose God had for him. Anyways its all how you look at it. its best to look at it that God controls everything through circumstances---He has/will put circumstances in and through your life so that you will "choose" what He wants to be done. Do you have a choice then? Not really--but it sure does feel like it dont it. Thats the power of the delusion of free will. Through circumstances God predestined/preordained everything to turn out the way it has so far and will be in the future.
I believe the key to understanding it all is that God is controlling everything through circumstances. Not that He is "changing" as man whims change but that He set it all in motion from the beginning.
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4309
Original Word Word Origin
proorivzw from (4253) and (3724)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proorizo 5:456,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro-or-id'-zo Verb
Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand in the NT of God decreeing from eternity to foreordain, appoint beforehand
mharrell08:
Excerpt from Lake of Fire #15-D (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html):
EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME
God Almighty is responsible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME." Let's read it:
"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).
The implications of this verse are staggering. The very foundation of human psychology and theology crumbles under the weight of this declaration of God’s Word. This is undoubtedly one of the ten most profound Scriptures in the entire Bible.
If we are to be honest and believe this verse, then we must concede that absolutely NOTHING is left out God’s profound declaration except man’s anti-scriptural theory of "free will."
The word "season" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew word, z[e]man, and is defined in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary as: "APPOINTED season, occasion, time." And "purpose" is defined as: "pleasure, desire, matter." Sometimes rendered as "purpose" or "event."
Here’s a second witness to this grand declaration:
"Because to every purpose [matter or event] there is time and judgment..." (Ecc. 8:6).
And a third witness:
"…for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work" (Ecc. 3:17).
Here are a couple translations that make this verse a little clearer:
"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).
"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).
There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed." Where pray tell does "free will" fit into all this? It doesn’t. It clearly DOESN’T. Man has no free will. There is no such thing as free will. It is but the phantom of an "obscured heart" as we learned in Part C from Ecc. 3:11.
Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"
Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.
Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.
Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.
Then how can man have a free will?
Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.
Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:
[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).
AND:
[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).
Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.
Also, Ray has a bible study from Jan '07 on free will: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html. This may help as well.
Thanks,
Marques
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