> General Discussions
Choices vs. Destiny
Amrhrasach:
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 21, 2009, 11:36:08 AM ---Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!
Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.
God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.
Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.
God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...
Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.
- Daywalker.
--- End quote ---
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predestinate
pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate /v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt] Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.
–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.
From this topic thread: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9273.msg77952.html#msg77952
Ray's words:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---------------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOV
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Gary,
I think you get it on this subject:
(YLT)
Psa 37:23 From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Psa 37:24 When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand.
Psa 37:25 Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.
Psa 37:26 All the day he is gracious and lending, And his seed is for a blessing.
Psa 37:27 Turn aside from evil, and do good, and dwell to the age.
Psa 37:28 For Jehovah is loving judgment, And He doth not forsake His saintly ones, To the age they have been kept, And the seed of the wicked is cut off.
george.
What 'pre-approved' sounds like to me is God approves of what we decide to do. As 'pre-destinates' would mean God's plan is already worked out, so we are already predestinated in all that will happen.
Gary you do seems to be going to the right direction with this now
mercy, peace and love
Kat
VVVVVV
I'm in an understanding with those who are a bit confused by the matter. And for those that are quick to catch on and reconcile to Ray's teachings, you've been blessed. But it's a deep subject, at least to me, and doesn't easily reconcile itself to that which Ray teaches because the reconciling means giving up an idol. But then even Ray understands it's difficult to give up a long welcomed "idol" that has much history in anyones life. The head of this idol is so strong, at least to me, and puts up a tremendous fight before admitting defeat. Hence, the personal spiritual battle and overcoming. And it's an overwhelming battle. I've had, as we all have, events happen in our lives that make absolutely no sense to us in any way and doesn't appear even after many glances that the event(s) serve any good purpose. So it's easy to just say "well, God did it", but without a proper understanding and belief which it appears only God can grant, they (the purposes of events) remain in a nebulous status.
Gary
Kat:
One more email :)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8711.0.html -----
Your questions regarding whether God "predetermined" all things is basically true. And yes, God did "make us" as He made us. However, it is not true that God "MADE" us do anything. People have trouble understanding that just because we don't have a "free will" does not mean that we do not have a "will" at all. Of course we have a will, it's just that it isn't free to operate WITHOUT A CAUSE. It is the "cause" that takes away the "freedom" of our wills. And God does not "MAKE OR CAUSE" us to sin, for example. We volunteer to sin according to our OWN WILL. And our will, of course, operates on the many thousands and millions of circumstances we confront daily which are totally outside of our control.
God plain tells us that He does NOT "tempt--try or test" any man with evil (James 1:13). Well what does "tempt" man then if not God? Answer: "his OWN LUST/DESIRES." God is, however, responsible for His entire creation, and therefore in Judgment, God will right all apparent wrongs of the past.
As for computer making choices, I will still differ with you, as there is nothing in the definition of "choose" or "choice" that necessitates consciousness.
God be with you,
Ray
daywalker:
Hello Gary,
I find it quite interesting that you underlined and bolded the part of my post that said "Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture?", and then you bolded and underlined [in your post] a quote from Ray saying that "They are all predestined". I think Ray would be the first to say not to quote his statements as Scripture, but to quote the Scripture itself. [I don't know if you did that intentionally, just an interesting observation...]
But I do recall in one of Ray's Audios [I think it's the "Who & What Is Jesus?" but don't quote me on that :D] in which he said that he had made the mistake in the past of saying that God preordains everything. That Ray believes that surely God foreknows everything, but he doesn't preordain everything.
Anyways, have a good one.
- Daywalker. 8)
--- Quote from: Horseman on April 21, 2009, 02:23:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 21, 2009, 11:36:08 AM ---Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!
Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.
God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.
Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.
God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...
Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.
- Daywalker.
--- End quote ---
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predestinate
pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate /v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt] Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.
–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.
From this topic thread: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9273.msg77952.html#msg77952
Ray's words:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---------------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOV
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Gary,
I think you get it on this subject:
(YLT)
Psa 37:23 From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Psa 37:24 When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand.
Psa 37:25 Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.
Psa 37:26 All the day he is gracious and lending, And his seed is for a blessing.
Psa 37:27 Turn aside from evil, and do good, and dwell to the age.
Psa 37:28 For Jehovah is loving judgment, And He doth not forsake His saintly ones, To the age they have been kept, And the seed of the wicked is cut off.
george.
What 'pre-approved' sounds like to me is God approves of what we decide to do. As 'pre-destinates' would mean God's plan is already worked out, so we are already predestinated in all that will happen.
Gary you do seems to be going to the right direction with this now
mercy, peace and love
Kat
VVVVVV
I'm in an understanding with those who are a bit confused by the matter. And for those that are quick to catch on and reconcile to Ray's teachings, you've been blessed. But it's a deep subject, at least to me, and doesn't easily reconcile itself to that which Ray teaches because the reconciling means giving up an idol. But then even Ray understands it's difficult to give up a long welcomed "idol" that has much history in anyones life. The head of this idol is so strong, at least to me, and puts up a tremendous fight before admitting defeat. Hence, the personal spiritual battle and overcoming. And it's an overwhelming battle. I've had, as we all have, events happen in our lives that make absolutely no sense to us in any way and doesn't appear even after many glances that the event(s) serve any good purpose. So it's easy to just say "well, God did it", but without a proper understanding and belief which it appears only God can grant, they (the purposes of events) remain in a nebulous status.
Gary
--- End quote ---
kenny:
So God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?
Roy Martin:
My taste buds prefer vanilla. A choice influenced by taste. Its the same with cherry pie or apple pie tonight.
I cant control my taste buds. Its the way I was made. I can choose apple or cherry because I like both, but if I don't like either then I cant control that. Where is choice if we are made that way?
Sure we get to make a choice of which pie we will eat, but how does that affect us spiritually? Are we really making choices when it comes to spiritual things?
Peace
Roy
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