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Author Topic: Choices vs. Destiny  (Read 7638 times)

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Astrapho

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Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2009, 02:52:22 PM »

Quote
Of course we have a will, it's just that it isn't free to operate WITHOUT A CAUSE.

I thought on the vast implications of this.

Every time we make a choice, we are adding to the cause leading to another choice, which causes another choice, and another, and another, and another....

So this cause and effect chain reaction has stretched back all the way to... I can't imagine it, quite honestly. I wonder if it's right to say that everything we do now, every choice we make, was caused from choices made from the beginning of the world, originating from God's choice to make the world in the first place.

So if God has really "predestined everything by His foreknowledge", and brought out choices from causes which were choices brought about by other causes in the first place which were brought about by God from the beginning, then there simply can't be free will because of this unimaginably massive chain reaction. And with this understanding, you can truly believe that God's hand really is on everybody's life, he really has everything in control, he really has "declared the end from the beginning", and that there really is no "free" will. ;D

I wonder if I even make sense.

EDIT: For instance, I decided to waggle my little finger at "random" after reading Zander's post, and realized that I waggled it precisely because of it. Lol.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 02:59:57 PM by Astrapho »
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2009, 02:54:05 PM »

So God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?

Hey Kenny,

You make choices based on the circumstances that you put into, and there are many things that can affect the choices you make. Your parents and how you were raised have a huge impact on who you are today, right? If you were raised by a Church-going family, you'd have a very different view on life and humanity, then say, someone who was raised be Atheists. Your family and friends likewise have a huge impact on your life. Also, the city/state/country you are raised in, and the schools that you attend, and the many trials that you endure...

I could go on and on about all the different variables that affect you and cause you to make the choices that you make. This is why you don't have a "free" will, because you don't make choices "freely", there's always a reason [i.e. cause].

Since GOD is the Creator of everything, He is also the Creator of all the different variables that cause the circumstances to come about that cause you to make the choices you make. Thus, God is ultimately the cause of everything. But that doesn't mean that He directly makes humans do anything. He can, and sometimes He does:

- God made a giant fish swallow Jonah and take him to Nenevah
- The Holy Spirit made Mary become pregnant with Jesus
- Jesus made Saul repent and become the Apostle Paul

You always have a choice. You always have a will. But your choices and your will is far from being "free".

Don't believe me? Try to STOP Sinning.  ;)


God Speed, my friend,

- Daywalker.
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kenny

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2009, 03:10:06 PM »

So God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?

Hey Kenny,

You make choices based on the circumstances that you put into, and there are many things that can affect the choices you make. Your parents and how you were raised have a huge impact on who you are today, right? If you were raised by a Church-going family, you'd have a very different view on life and humanity, then say, someone who was raised be Atheists. Your family and friends likewise have a huge impact on your life. Also, the city/state/country you are raised in, and the schools that you attend, and the many trials that you endure...

I could go on and on about all the different variables that affect you and cause you to make the choices that you make. This is why you don't have a "free" will, because you don't make choices "freely", there's always a reason [i.e. cause].

Since GOD is the Creator of everything, He is also the Creator of all the different variables that cause the circumstances to come about that cause you to make the choices you make. Thus, God is ultimately the cause of everything. But that doesn't mean that He directly makes humans do anything. He can, and sometimes He does:

- God made a giant fish swallow Jonah and take him to Nenevah
- The Holy Spirit made Mary become pregnant with Jesus
- Jesus made Saul repent and become the Apostle Paul

You always have a choice. You always have a will. But your choices and your will is far from being "free".

Don't believe me? Try to STOP Sinning.  ;)


God Speed, my friend,

- Daywalker.
Daywalker
Thats good my friend, i was reading some e-mails to Ray, on free will and in one of his replies, he brought this very thing to light, and it is in line with what, I already had some understanding of and now it is getting clearer and clearer.
 
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2009, 03:13:39 PM »

Hey Gary,

I got no problems with quoting Ray, I do it also. I was just making the observation that you compared his quote with my question of having a Scripture... But as I said I didn't know if that was your intent, I was just observing.

The topic of Free Will is the most difficult of all, I totally agree. It's only in the recent months that I've started to completely [that is completely as a human can..] comprehend it. The trick is to separate free will from making choices. We have had it drilled into our heads through both Religion and through the Secular World that makings choices = free will, and therefore, if you take away the free will than you take away our ability to make choices.

But this is not the case. You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.

Here's a great Scripture from the Apostle Paul that really started to help me understand this "free will" thing. I pray that it will help you as well. I'll quote it from a few translations:

Revised Standard Version:
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
19  For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.


English Standard Version:
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
19  For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.


Contemporary English Version:
Rom 7:18  I know that my selfish desires won't let me do anything that is good. Even when I want to do right, I cannot.
19  Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong.



This is the Great Enigma of Life. The fact that we do things against our will every day is proof positive that our wills are not "free". But we naturally are prideful, self-righteous creatures, who want to believe that we are in control, even when it's obvious that we are not. And yes God created us this way. And only God can open a person's eyes so that they can SEE.


God Bless You, My Friend,

- Daywalker.



Hi Daywalker.    To answer, Roy asked about “preordained”.   Your reply of the definition of “preordained” included “foreordain”.   I included Ray’s writing of “predestinated”, which also links to “foreordain”.   

“foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future.”


Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?

Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain

Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position

Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.

Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future



/v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/  Show Spelled   pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt]  Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.

–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.




Ray:  “They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.”



So, if God is “determining” events of the future then does it (?) go to say that the “choices” we make are also “pre-determined” by God?  If so, then where does that leave the “choice”?    A clear matter?, not necessarily.   But the “choice” appears to clearly rule out “free-will”.

Honestly, and again, it’s a difficult subject for me and apparently others which is why I stated to those that readily understand they are blessed indeed.   Even though a dictionary can define the words, only God grants the wisdom to understand.  And again for those who understand they have been truly blessed.  But for those of us, I’m speaking mainly to myself, that don’t quite yet “get it” in cement fashion this mountain of challenge continues to loom, a sure witness that God is in control even of understanding.

That’s all I was attempting.  Not picking.  Just hoping to help for Roy or anyone else who may yet to understand. But as far as quoting Ray, well, that happens all day long here on this forum as I’m sure many other events not on this forum.

Gary

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Astrapho

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Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2009, 03:19:02 PM »

Quote
This is the Great Enigma of Life. The fact that we do things against our will every day is proof positive that our wills are not "free". But we naturally are prideful, self-righteous creatures, who want to believe that we are in control, even when it's obvious that we are not. And yes God created us this way. And only God can open a person's eyes so that they can SEE

AMEN! That pretty much nails it.  ;D
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Amrhrasach

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2009, 03:44:26 PM »

Hey Gary,

The trick is to separate free will from making choices.



You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.

God Bless You, My Friend,

- Daywalker.



Thanks Daywalker.   Agreed, that's the trick.    Unfortunately I'm an old dog.     ;)

As for "causes" I understand, at least that part, of Ray's teachings.   All effects have their causes.   Phenomenal chain reaction.   However when presented with a choice to do right or wrong and one chooses what turns out to be a wrong choice with disastrous results some wish to believe and reason backwards that God caused the wrong choice.   I don't believe that to be true.  Now I don't anyway.   Indirectly perhaps but certainly not directly.   Your quoting of Paul would exclude that reasoning as well.   And that's the crux of where understanding and error reasoning cross and it's a long difficult process to understand, at least for me.   The head of the idol wails against reason.   And i'm not sure I'm there yet.

Gary
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2009, 04:01:40 PM »

Hey Gary,

The trick is to separate free will from making choices.



You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.

God Bless You, My Friend,

- Daywalker.



Thanks Daywalker.   Agreed, that's the trick.    Unfortunately I'm an old dog.     ;)

As for "causes" I understand, at least that part, of Ray's teachings.   All effects have their causes.   Phenomenal chain reaction.   However when presented with a choice to do right or wrong and one chooses what turns out to be a wrong choice with disastrous results some wish to believe and reason backwards that God caused the wrong choice.   I don't believe that to be true.  Now I don't anyway.   Indirectly perhaps but certainly not directly.   Your quoting of Paul would exclude that reasoning as well.   And that's the crux of where understanding and error reasoning cross and it's a long difficult process to understand, at least for me.   The head of the idol wails against reason.   And i'm not sure I'm there yet.

Gary



I totally agree. It's one of those things that no matter how "obvious" it gets, or how much "sense" it makes, there are still days/moments when gets foggy, and in that moment it doesn't "make sense". Guess that's where "faith" comes in to play... ???

Daywalker.
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EKnight

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2009, 05:06:27 PM »


[/quote]
 However when presented with a choice to do right or wrong and one chooses what turns out to be a wrong choice with disastrous results some wish to believe and reason backwards that God caused the wrong choice.   I don't believe that to be true.  Now I don't anyway.   Indirectly perhaps but certainly not directly.   

Gary[/color]
[/quote]

I know you said you no longer believe that.  I just wanted to emphasize one thing.  One cannot make a wrong choice.  Whatever choice you made/make is the will of God and therefore the right choice regardless of the outcome. 

I have experienced this very scenario first hand and while I sometimes question my decision because of the outcome not appearing to be rosy, I know that I prayed hard for guidance when making the decision and unless Luke 11
Quote
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
is not the truth, I know that God led me to what was right in His sight.

Eileen
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2009, 05:30:26 PM »


Study a little bit of Physics and Quantum Mechanics to understand how utterly foolish this notion of Free will is. Below are a few declarations from The Very Creator Himself. Let the Word Of God Defend Itself from all naysayers.

This Is The God Of The OT Speaking:

Num 23:19 (KJV) 
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Isa 46:9-11 (KJV)
9  Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

The answer is right where we should go to find it:

This Same God Is Speaking in The NT; call Him A Lair Or believe What He Says. Trust The Scriptures Which are life or trust your own desperately evil heart; that keeps denying plain stated truth.

Joh 5:19 (ESV) 
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

Joh 5:30 (ESV)
"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 15:5 (ESV)
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

george. ;D

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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2009, 06:17:30 PM »





Email to Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7286.0.html


Dear John: Please show your friend my comment.  People not only do not believe the Scriptures, they DESPISE the Scriptures. People want to believe the damnable lie and heresy (II Pet. 2:1) that God gave to mankind a "God-thwarting power" called "free will"--"human free [uncaused] moral agency."
They WILL NOT obey a God Whom they think can "control" them.  What are the Scriptural facts? As though people who despise the Word of God are interested in Scriptural facts. Your friend contradicts his own argument with his own argument:  "JESUS OBEYED AS HE CHOSE TO DO NOT HIS WILL BUT THE FATHERS WILL."  And did Jesus "CHOOSE" to not do His own will BY HIS OWN ["free"] WILL?
 
WHY have "all sinned" (Rom. 3:23) except Jesus (Heb. 4:15)?  Christendom and her hundreds of thousands of theologians cannot answer that question using the Scriptures.  Because if God had not prevented Jesus from sinning, and He was tempted as we are, and He possessed the fabled "free will" that all men supposedly have, then Jesus WOULD HAVE SINNED.  Why (without the Father living IN HIM) would His "free" will NOT have sinned?  Give me a Scripture?  PLEASE? Remove my statement that the Father would not allow Jesus to sin, and then SHOW ME in the Scriptures where it was possible for Jesus NOT TO SIN?  Show me the Scripture?
 
Who operates in man to do good?  Who operated in Jesus to do good?

Phi 2:13 "For it is God [Who? Man? NO--'GOD'] which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."  Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.

 Joh 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." Do Christians believe this verse?  Of course not. So then, did the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God the Father IN Jesus keep Him from sinning or not?  Was it the Father's WILL, that Jesus SIN?  Then WHOSE will did Jesus pray would keep Him from sinning--"

Mat 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."  Do Christians believe this verse with all their "free will" nonsense?   Of course not. When Jesus prayed, where those Jesus' words or the words of His Father "...working in Jesus both to will and to do of His good pleasure?"

Jud 1:24 "Now unto Him [GOD ALMIGHTY] that is able to keep you from falling [Gk:  aptaistos "a derivative of G4417; not stumbling, that is, (figuratively) without sin: - from falling"--Strong's Greek Dictionary]and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."  So God can keep us from sinning, but He could not and did not "keep Jesus from SINNING?"  Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.

Etc., etc., etc. But why go on?  Christians who worship the godless idols of their hearts, will NOT receive instruction from the Word of God. They will NOT!

God be with you,

Ray
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Amrhrasach

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2009, 06:54:51 PM »


I know you said you no longer believe that.  I just wanted to emphasize one thing.  One cannot make a wrong choice.  Whatever choice you made/make is the will of God and therefore the right choice regardless of the outcome. 

I have experienced this very scenario first hand and while I sometimes question my decision because of the outcome not appearing to be rosy, I know that I prayed hard for guidance when making the decision and unless Luke 11
Quote
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
is not the truth, I know that God led me to what was right in His sight.

Eileen

Hi Eileen, I don’t wish to turn this into a “me” thread but I must question your comment and relate a personal story to exaggerate the point.

20 years ago (December 2008) as a young man I made the disastrous decision/choice to get involved, after drinking heavily, into a one night stand with a woman.  No physical contact other than the one night.  A couple of months later I was served with a paternity suit legal document.   Little did I know…..what I would learn to be…..the professional nature of this young lady.  After months of research by an attorney it seems this young lady had quite a history of similar occurrences.   2 years of court process and several hundred dollars later the blood test served in pronouncing innocence of paternal responsibility.    I made a terrible choice of conduct, no question, but the mental detriment and baggage I carried for years produced scars beyond healing.   They still aren’t healed. 

Now with the idea that there are NO wrong choices or that the choice I made was the will of God, how do you suppose I reconcile this terrible decision and it’s very, very far ill reaching mental effects back to God is a loving caring God who allowed/instructed/authorized/predetermined/preordained/foreordained such an ill-fated choice?

You don’t have to answer that question. 

My point is this: there are many who have done similar or far worse things in life.   They too, although they may not admit, have serious trouble reconciling their “choices” back to the “no free will” and “the will of God” in their most vile and destructive choices.   The "myth of free-will" is a towering giant with power to control and make strong men weak.  Just because one person reconciles with ease doesn't mean they can walk a mile or two in another's shoes with similar authority and confidence.

Hopefully this sheds some light on the difficulty in the learning curve even that there are no "wrong choices".

Gary
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Choices vs. Destiny
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2009, 07:15:05 PM »

Great thread but I think it has run it's course...Ray has many papers/bible studies on this subject for further info.


Marques
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