Choices vs. Destiny

[Roy Martin]

Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
  If Jesus were to tell me that I am going to die in a car crash tomorrow, my carnal mind would say," I just wont go anywhere tomorrow," but none the less, I would die tomorrow.
  When Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times, there isn't a choice that Peter could have made to stop it.
  We have been given many rules and instructions that seems to involve making a right or wrong choice.
Is it really us choosing or just walking out a destiny preordained?
When Jesus interceded for Simon and kept Satan from attacking him, was he stopping predestination or a future event? What are we to know from that verse?
  How can there be a right or wrong choice?
I hope that some one can answer my question better than I'm asking it.Also I am not in objection with the truth I have learned here. Only seeking knowledge and understanding.
We know that God is working in us all things for the good, and that we cant do anything outside of His will or change His will or plan. Where does choice come in? I see no choice at all.
Peace and love
Roy
 

[musicman]

Would you like vanilla or chocolate ice cream?  Make your choice.  Not a free choice, but a choice.

[Q]

Look at it this way....
We are hung up on right and wrong...

True it has meaning and value but,,,,
The real reason we are her is to learn how to become as God,,,, we're in school  

Good is what God is evil is the way we learn good.

Its not about right or wrong so much as to teach us...

When we make a choice its how we are directed to learn,,, Only God is good and if He will everyone could be good or repentent in a secong as Paul was....

Hope this helps
Q

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?

I have brought up a few emails that I thonk might help you with this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4827.msg37299.html#msg37299 ---

It appears to most of humanity that if God Sovereign and man has no "free" will or "free" choice (that is, there is a cause for everything, and therefore whatever is caused to happen can not NOT HAPPEN, hence it is not "free"), then man has no reasoning abilities, cannot make a choice of what he prefers, and is therefore nothing but a mindless robot.

The reality is that we do have reasoning abilities, and we do choose what we prefer. You have now present a new twist that suggests neither the deceived person nor the enlightened one can know for sure what is truth, because his realization of truth is only that which God permits or allows him to have through his life experiences.  I am not sure how you came to this conclusion.  Try this: There was a time when most people (albeit not all) believed that the earth was flat.  Now they really believed that and they really were deceived.  But now that we fly space shuttles AROUND the earth in all directions, we know for a fact that the earth is a sphere.  The TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.
The deceived have NO PROOF that they have a "free will," but the enlightened do HAVE PROOF that man does not have a free will.

In fact we have two proofs:  The Word of God and Nature--science.  Even if there is a supposed "law of uncertainty" or "randomness," it still would not allow for "freedom" of the will or "freedom" of choice.  If a person's thoughts are "free" to come into existence without any cause, from where is it that they come?  You may reply:  "Why they come from ME and me alone."  Oh really?  But from WHERE is "you?"  From your mind?  Your will?  Your WHAT?  Did you think about thinking the thought before it came into existence?  All you do is take the cause back to a more distance CAUSE.  What CAUSED your thinking to think a thought?  "THINGS" cause you to think thoughts. Thoughts do not come from "out of the blue."  And if they did, then we have merely pushed the real "cause" back a little further, only this time the cause is "the BLUE"--whatever that is.

If Science proves something AND THE WORD OF GOD proves something, then it's true, and that is how you can KNOW that it is true.  If you re-read my paper on "free will," you will be given both Scientific and Scriptural proof as to what the truth is on this matter.  "THY WORD IS TRUTH" (John 17:17).  Hope this helps your understanding.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html -----

I understand that these things are "spiritually discerned," and that people frustrate themselves over trying to understand spiritual things with a carnal mind. When a man rapes a little girl, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD!  When one prays to be rich and famous, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD!  ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly.  God created man--man SINS, God if free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.
And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).

Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart.  And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action.  Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.
God be with you,
Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html -------------------

Not having fee will or free choice does not mean that you do not HAVE a will or choices. Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING.  We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN.  The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own.  It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are. NO MAN will tell God He doesn't want to repent when God tells him: "NOW is the time for you to repent, and YOU WILL REPENT"!!


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------------
OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE.  Whose do think it is?  When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice?  If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth?  Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well?  No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it?  We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.      

       Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what?  It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE.  Can you now understand it?

       Do you still think you are a robot?  I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.

       God be with you,

       Ray

[Samson]

Would you like vanilla or chocolate ice cream?  Make your choice.  Not a free choice, but a choice.

Hi Roy,

           With every single choice we make, there is a prior cause that influences or causes that choice,
           whether it's obvious to us or not. The point that Ray stresses in his Free Will Articles is that
           none of the choices we make are Free. Mainly, because we can't control the outcome of our
           choices. We don't know exactly what the results of our choices will be, we might have a general
           idea of what usually results from these choices, like the example illustrated above by Musicman
           regarding the choice of Vanilla or Chocolate ice cream, but initially after trying each flavor, the cause
           might have been: " I don't like the taste of Chocolate or the Chocolate Ice cream irritates my stomach
           or Bowels. These two reasons are the cause that might have led to choosing Vanila, instead.

           Also, in Peters case, he initially might have had the desire to be Faithfull to Christ, but fear of Men
           was the cause in him denying Christ in that passage of Scripture. Ray has mentioned that the
           Cause/Effect principle is a Scientific Fact and has never been disproven Scripturally or Scientifically.

                           Hope this helps, if not, my Apologies, Samson.

              P.S. See Kats response too and re-read all of Rays material on Free Will and choices.

[daywalker]

Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
 

Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?

Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain

Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position

Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.

Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future


Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!

Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.

God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.

Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.


God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...


Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.

- Daywalker.

[lilitalienboi16]

Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
 

Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?

Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain

Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position

Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.

Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future


Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!

Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.

God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.

Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.


God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...


Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.

- Daywalker.

Absolutely beautiful post! Short, simple and to the point. Amazing! Thanks for that, it was a blessing to read and be reminded these little bits of truth.

God bless,

Alex

[EKnight]

Actually, I thought that these events were preordained by God too.  I thought that is why Ray emphasizes
Isaiah 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And I thought preordination was the reason for most peoples doubts on free-will saying that why then are they accountable if it couldn't have been any different because God caused these preordained things to happen as they do.

What am I missing here?

Eileen

[AK4]

Well there are several verses that mention predestinated/preordained and even others that allud to it also as in the case of pharoah being raised up for the purpose God used him for and like the person Jesus healed to show His power.  Even i think it was Ezekiel or Isaiah that He says formed Him in the womb for the exact purpose God had for him.  Anyways its all how you look at it.  its best to look at it that God controls everything through circumstances---He has/will put circumstances in and through your life so that you will "choose" what He wants to be done.  Do you have a choice then?  Not really--but it sure does feel like it dont it.  Thats the power of the delusion of free will.  Through circumstances God predestined/preordained everything to turn out the way it has so far and will be in the future.

I believe the key to understanding it all is that God is controlling everything through circumstances.  Not that He is "changing" as man whims change but that He set it all in motion from the beginning.

Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number:   4309 
Original Word Word Origin
proorivzw from (4253) and (3724)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proorizo 5:456,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro-or-id'-zo    Verb 

Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand in the NT of God decreeing from eternity to foreordain, appoint beforehand 

[mharrell08]

Excerpt from Lake of Fire #15-D (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html):

EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME

God Almighty is responsible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME." Let's read it:

"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

The implications of this verse are staggering. The very foundation of human psychology and theology crumbles under the weight of this declaration of God's Word. This is undoubtedly one of the ten most profound Scriptures in the entire Bible.

If we are to be honest and believe this verse, then we must concede that absolutely NOTHING is left out God's profound declaration except man's anti-scriptural theory of "free will."

The word "season" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew word, z[e]man, and is defined in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary as: "APPOINTED season, occasion, time." And "purpose" is defined as: "pleasure, desire, matter." Sometimes rendered as "purpose" or "event."

Here's a second witness to this grand declaration:

"Because to every purpose [matter or event] there is time and judgment..." (Ecc. 8:6).

And a third witness:

"...for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work" (Ecc. 3:17).

Here are a couple translations that make this verse a little clearer:

"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).

"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).

There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed." Where pray tell does "free will" fit into all this? It doesn't. It clearly DOESN'T. Man has no free will. There is no such thing as free will. It is but the phantom of an "obscured heart" as we learned in Part C from Ecc. 3:11.

Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"

Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Then how can man have a free will?

Man's will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God's preordained plan and purpose.

Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:

[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

AND:

[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).

Someone might see a contradiction in God's teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.

Also, Ray has a bible study from Jan '07 on free will: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html. This may help as well.


Thanks,

Marques

[Amrhrasach]

Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
 

Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain

Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position

Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.

Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future


Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!

Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.

God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.

Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.


God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...


Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.

- Daywalker.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predestinate

pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate   /v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt]  Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.

–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.


From this topic thread:   http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9273.msg77952.html#msg77952

Ray's words:

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---------------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOV
--------------------------------------------------------

Hi Gary,

I think you get it on this subject:

(YLT)

Psa 37:23  From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Psa 37:24  When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand.
Psa 37:25  Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.
Psa 37:26  All the day he is gracious and lending, And his seed is for a blessing.
Psa 37:27  Turn aside from evil, and do good, and dwell to the age.
Psa 37:28  For Jehovah is loving judgment, And He doth not forsake His saintly ones, To the age they have been kept, And the seed of the wicked is cut off.

george. 

What 'pre-approved' sounds like to me is God approves of what we decide to do.  As 'pre-destinates' would mean God's plan is already worked out, so we are already predestinated in all that will happen.

Gary you do seems to be going to the right direction with this now   

mercy, peace and love
Kat

VVVVVV

I'm in an understanding with those who are a bit confused by the matter.  And for those that are quick to catch on and reconcile to Ray's teachings, you've been blessed.   But it's a deep subject, at least to me, and doesn't easily reconcile itself to that which Ray teaches because the reconciling means giving up an idol.  But then even Ray understands it's difficult to give up a long welcomed "idol" that has much history in anyones life.  The head of this idol is so strong, at least to me, and puts up a tremendous fight before admitting defeat.  Hence, the personal spiritual battle and overcoming.  And it's an overwhelming battle.  I've had, as we all have, events happen in our lives that make absolutely no sense to us in any way and doesn't appear even after many glances that the event(s) serve any good purpose.  So it's easy to just say "well, God did it", but without a proper understanding and belief which it appears only God can grant, they (the purposes of events) remain in a nebulous status.   

Gary

[Kat]

One more email 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8711.0.html -----

Your questions regarding whether God "predetermined" all things is basically true.  And yes, God did "make us" as He made us.  However, it is not true that God "MADE" us do anything.  People have trouble understanding that just because we don't have a "free will" does not mean that we do not have a "will" at all.  Of course we have a will, it's just that it isn't free to operate WITHOUT A CAUSE.  It is the "cause" that takes away the "freedom" of our wills.  And God does not "MAKE OR CAUSE" us to sin, for example. We volunteer to sin according to our OWN WILL.  And our will, of course, operates on the many thousands and millions of circumstances we confront daily which are totally outside of our control.

    God plain tells us that He does NOT "tempt--try or test" any man with evil (James 1:13).  Well what does "tempt" man then if not God?  Answer: "his OWN LUST/DESIRES." God is, however, responsible for His entire creation, and therefore in Judgment, God will right all apparent wrongs of the past.

    As for computer making choices, I will still differ with you, as there is nothing in the definition of  "choose" or "choice" that necessitates consciousness.

    God be with you,

    Ray

[daywalker]

Hello Gary,

I find it quite interesting that you underlined and bolded the part of my post that said "Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture?", and then you bolded and underlined [in your post] a quote from Ray saying that "They are all predestined". I think Ray would be the first to say not to quote his statements as Scripture, but to quote the Scripture itself. [I don't know if you did that intentionally, just an interesting observation...]

But I do recall in one of Ray's Audios [I think it's the "Who & What Is Jesus?" but don't quote me on that  ] in which he said that he had made the mistake in the past of saying that God preordains everything. That Ray believes that surely God foreknows everything, but he doesn't preordain everything.


Anyways, have a good one.

- Daywalker.

Roy: Since everything is preordained, how can there be such a thing as making a choice?
 

Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain

Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position

Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.

Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future


Did God 'preordain' evil men to rape little girls? No, I think not! Did He know 'from the beginning' that evil men would rape little girls? Yes, of course He did. But did He 'appoint', make a 'decree', or 'foreordain' them to do such acts? No!

Did God 'preordain' heretics to tell the world that He was going to burn them in Hell? No, I think not! Did He know that they would do that? Yes.

God created humanity. He knows what we are capable of. As Ray says, "God created us Spiritually weak. We are sinning machines". God doesn't have to MAKE anyone DO ANYTHING. We 'volunteer' to sin because we were created that way.

Thus, without God's Holy Spirit guiding a person's life, they will continue to sin, and 'wax worse and worse', because 'sin begets sin'. We ourselves can do nothing to stop us from sinning.


God doesn't 'make' us sin. However, only God can stop us from sinning. We do not have a free will. Therefore, we [alone] lack the ability to resist temptations. That's just the way it is...


Hope that helps. Somedays it makes perfect sense, others it's a bit foggy, I know.

- Daywalker.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predestinate

pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate   /v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt]  Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.

–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.


From this topic thread:   http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9273.msg77952.html#msg77952

Ray's words:

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---------------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOV
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Hi Gary,

I think you get it on this subject:

(YLT)

Psa 37:23  From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Psa 37:24  When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand.
Psa 37:25  Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.
Psa 37:26  All the day he is gracious and lending, And his seed is for a blessing.
Psa 37:27  Turn aside from evil, and do good, and dwell to the age.
Psa 37:28  For Jehovah is loving judgment, And He doth not forsake His saintly ones, To the age they have been kept, And the seed of the wicked is cut off.

george. 

What 'pre-approved' sounds like to me is God approves of what we decide to do.  As 'pre-destinates' would mean God's plan is already worked out, so we are already predestinated in all that will happen.

Gary you do seems to be going to the right direction with this now   

mercy, peace and love
Kat

VVVVVV

I'm in an understanding with those who are a bit confused by the matter.  And for those that are quick to catch on and reconcile to Ray's teachings, you've been blessed.   But it's a deep subject, at least to me, and doesn't easily reconcile itself to that which Ray teaches because the reconciling means giving up an idol.  But then even Ray understands it's difficult to give up a long welcomed "idol" that has much history in anyones life.  The head of this idol is so strong, at least to me, and puts up a tremendous fight before admitting defeat.  Hence, the personal spiritual battle and overcoming.  And it's an overwhelming battle.  I've had, as we all have, events happen in our lives that make absolutely no sense to us in any way and doesn't appear even after many glances that the event(s) serve any good purpose.  So it's easy to just say "well, God did it", but without a proper understanding and belief which it appears only God can grant, they (the purposes of events) remain in a nebulous status.   

Gary

[kenny]

So God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?

[Roy Martin]

My taste buds prefer vanilla. A choice influenced by taste. Its the same with cherry pie or apple pie tonight.
 I cant control my taste buds. Its the way I was made. I can choose apple or cherry because I like both, but if I don't like either then I cant control that. Where is choice if we are made that way?
Sure we get to make a choice of which pie we will eat, but how does that affect us spiritually? Are we really making choices when it comes to spiritual things?
Peace
Roy

[kenny]

Roy I think we do,
Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God is asking us to make a choice here,

i was reading an e-mail the other day that was to Ray, about robots and free will that might help.

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I cant control my taste buds. Its the way I was made. I can choose apple or cherry because I like both, but if I don't like either then I cant control that. Where is choice if we are made that way?

That's just it God made us the way we are and there is nothing we can do about it, that's why He is responsible and He will make it right in the end.  But like you said you do have choices (in the framework of what He made you to be), it is YOU who actually choose to do something or say something and YOU actually go through the motions to carry it out.  When you are doing something you want to do, do you feel like God is forcing you to do it?  No, you want to do it, that's why it will be you who is held accountable. 

But can you see that God is the ultimate cause, because He is actually holding together the whole creation. 

Col 1:17  He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

So He is truly in control of all things, because it is God keeping everything working and going and keeping His plan moving forward.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[EKnight]

Roy,

We make choices all day everyday.  The question is, why? Why did we choose this or that?  The answer to the why is always God.  Because God wanted it that way.  Why did God want it that way?  That is for Him to know and you to eventually find out.

Eileen

[Amrhrasach]

Hi Daywalker.    To answer, Roy asked about "preordained".   Your reply of the definition of "preordained" included "foreordain".   I included Ray's writing of "predestinated", which also links to "foreordain".   

"foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future."


Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?

Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain

Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position

Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.

Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future


/v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/  Show Spelled   pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt]  Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.

–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.



Ray:  "They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God."


So, if God is "determining" events of the future then does it (?) go to say that the "choices" we make are also "pre-determined" by God?  If so, then where does that leave the "choice"?    A clear matter?, not necessarily.   But the "choice" appears to clearly rule out "free-will".

Honestly, and again, it's a difficult subject for me and apparently others which is why I stated to those that readily understand they are blessed indeed.   Even though a dictionary can define the words, only God grants the wisdom to understand.  And again for those who understand they have been truly blessed.  But for those of us, I'm speaking mainly to myself, that don't quite yet "get it" in cement fashion this mountain of challenge continues to loom, a sure witness that God is in control even of understanding.

That's all I was attempting.  Not picking.  Just hoping to help for Roy or anyone else who may yet to understand. But as far as quoting Ray, well, that happens all day long here on this forum as I'm sure many other events not on this forum.

Gary

[zander]

This is an interesting article.  A Question that i have asked myself many times.  We can round and round discussing it, but the truth of the matter is that everything in front of us is pre-destined.

This is the bottom line.

What will happen - absolutely WILL happen.  Whether im moving my little finger or whether i become president of the USA, if its pre-destined it ABSOLUTELY WILL HAPPEN.  Or Not happen as the case may be - either way - its predestined.

I never understood the film The Matrix until i read Ray's artciles.  But truth is, the Matrix is a close description of what this life really is. For a good reason of course.