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Author Topic: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses  (Read 5366 times)

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Deedle

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« on: June 07, 2006, 10:01:05 AM »

Joh 5:45  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

This has really got me thinking. I did a search on the word accuse and accuseth from this verse and it is very interesting.

The word is:

G2723
κατηγορέω
katēgoreō
Thayer Definition:
1) to accuse
1a) before a judge: to make an accusation
1b) of an extra-judicial accusation
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2725

Total KJV Occurrences: 22

accuse, 13
Mat_12:10, Mar_3:2, Luk_11:54, Luk_23:2, Luk_23:14, Joh_5:45, Joh_8:6, Act_24:2, Act_24:8, Act_24:13, Act_25:5, Act_25:11, Act_28:19

accused, 6
Mat_27:12, Mar_15:3, Luk_23:10, Act_22:30, Act_25:16, Rev_12:10

accuseth, 1
Joh_5:45

accusing, 1
Rom_2:15

object, 1
Act_24:19

What really got me thinking was this:

Rev 12:9  
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Is there a connection between "the devil" and the law?

Rom 4:14  
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Jud 1:9  
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Zec 3:1 (REV)
And he shewed me, Joshua the high priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh,-and, the Accuser, standing at his right hand, to accuse him. 2 Then said Yahweh unto the Accuser, Yahweh rebuke thee, O Accuser, Yea Yahweh rebuke thee, he who is choosing Jerusalem,-Is not, this, a brand snatched out of the fire? 3 Now, Joshua, was clothed with filthy garments,-though standing before the messenger.

Our righteousness [of the Law] are as filthy rags.

Isa 64:6  
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Phi 3:9  
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Some of the other posts got me thinking about this stuff. What do you guys and gals think?

Deedle  :D
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chrissiela

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2006, 10:04:34 AM »

hehe... you see that connection, too!??  :wink:

Between the law and wrath and Satan....  many more links there as well..... (the flesh, the tongue, the beast, etc).  :shock:

This'll be a good thread!!  :D  (not ready to post yet, though, gotta go 'gather' some scriptures...   :lol:  :lol:  )

Chrissie
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mercie

  • Guest
Re: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2006, 10:37:19 AM »

Quote from: Deedle
Joh 5:45  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

This has really got me thinking. I did a search on the word accuse and accuseth from this verse and it is very interesting.

The word is:

G2723
κατηγορέω
katēgoreō
Thayer Definition:
1) to accuse
1a) before a judge: to make an accusation
1b) of an extra-judicial accusation
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2725

Total KJV Occurrences: 22

accuse, 13
Mat_12:10, Mar_3:2, Luk_11:54, Luk_23:2, Luk_23:14, Joh_5:45, Joh_8:6, Act_24:2, Act_24:8, Act_24:13, Act_25:5, Act_25:11, Act_28:19

accused, 6
Mat_27:12, Mar_15:3, Luk_23:10, Act_22:30, Act_25:16, Rev_12:10

accuseth, 1
Joh_5:45

accusing, 1
Rom_2:15

object, 1
Act_24:19

What really got me thinking was this:

Rev 12:9  
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Is there a connection between "the devil" and the law?

Rom 4:14  
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Jud 1:9  
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Zec 3:1 (REV)
And he shewed me, Joshua the high priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh,-and, the Accuser, standing at his right hand, to accuse him. 2 Then said Yahweh unto the Accuser, Yahweh rebuke thee, O Accuser, Yea Yahweh rebuke thee, he who is choosing Jerusalem,-Is not, this, a brand snatched out of the fire? 3 Now, Joshua, was clothed with filthy garments,-though standing before the messenger.

Our righteousness [of the Law] are as filthy rags.

Isa 64:6  
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Phi 3:9  
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Some of the other posts got me thinking about this stuff. What do you guys and gals think?

Deedle  :D


Deedle

This may lead you to avenues you may have not come across before.

Out of Respect for whats taught here at Bible-Truths , it would be better for me to remain silent.

But ill leave you with this to ponder on.
Who was IT Christ called the sons of their Father?

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He who hates his Brother is a Liar and a Murderer and the the TRUTH is Not in HIM

Maybe  in your own study will you see the connections WATCH THE WORDING.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son

Could it be we all were liars in the flesh , the purpose of New tongues being Given, all Things made New ?

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged


1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
-


1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Pro 17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; [and] a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psa 62:4 They only consult to cast [him] down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.

Who ?those under law?

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

Psa 5:9 For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.



Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God


Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Which leads us here
Christ is WISDOM

Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

Christ is HID in all men.

Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.  
 
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.  


 Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.  


 Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


 Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:  


 Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:  
who were the generation of the Time?

Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.



Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


 Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.  


 Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.  


 Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;  


 Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  


 Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
Enjoy your Study Deedle :D
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orion77

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 10:44:31 AM »

Amen to that, Deedle.



(Rev 12:12)  Because of this, be glad, the heavens and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the devil came down to you having great anger, knowing that he has a little time!

Heavens, earth and sea, lots to be said here.  Sea equals lost humanity, earth is the called and the heavens are the called, chosen and faithful.  The called or earthly still liken themselves under the law and hence always seem to accuse.  The heavenly are to be glad, because the accuser has been cast out, no longer under the law but faith.

The earthly, which are full of dust is what the devil dines on.  Easy to see, by their constant accusations, by being under the law.  Quoting the law and the willingness to fight for the law are earthly characteristics.  

We by faith:

(Act 26:18)  to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the authority of Satan to God, in order that they may receive remission of sins, and an inheritance among those being sanctified by faith in Me.

(Rom 1:17)  for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by faith." Hab. 2:4

(Rom 3:26)  for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus.

(Rom 3:27)  Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith.

(Rom 3:28)  Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of Law.


God bless,

Gary
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Daniel

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 11:50:36 AM »

I see it Deedle! Amen! The law is The ministry of "condemnation" where there is no condemnation in Christ. Its your accuser not your justifier. The good conscience is related to the resurrection.

Just as the "Sting of death" is sin its power is derived from the law, which is "not of faith". In that is the importance of Him coming a "second time" without sin in relation to the "second death" which overcomers are not "hurt". This is why it speaks of Jesus Christ "loosing the pains of death". "Where is thy sting" in relation to these things spiritually speaking?To me speaks consistantly concerning who we trust, whether "Moses" or "Jesus Christ" and that which is discerned between the two.

Wrath, Moses, the law, unbelief, the devil, the accuser while in the flesh. Did you ever notice who is both under the law and who it is "made for" then look in the LOF. Yet here the words "no rest" are present. There is no rest there but doubt and fear which hath torment. To me its as going back to that which made nothing perfect rather then going on to perfection.

God swears in His wrath they will not enter His rest, one cannot enter Paul says for "unbelief" thats where the law is holding them (has power over them). It accuses them, its got a sting to it (while in the flesh). Its  where "the veil" is. Its everything between the two to me. Like two ages here and now. How many veils are there?  :D

Daniel
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Lightseeker

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2006, 02:17:38 PM »

Deedle,

Quote
Is there a connection between "the devil" and the law?


Don't forget to add sin and body to that equation.

Devil,........law,.....................sin,....................body/possession

Satan,......commandments,..transgressions,.soul/obsession

Antichrist,.statutes,.............iniquities,...........spirit/oppresion

See if you see a correlation with the law being the power/authority of the devil...and breaking the law is sin which has it's consequences (death/disease/possession) in the body.

Whereas commandments are the power/authority of Satan and breaking them lead to transgressions which have their consequences (strongholds,mental illness/obsessions) in the soul (mind, will, emotions).

Lastly statutes are the power/authority of the Antichrist which result in iniquities that affect (quenching, breaking/oppresion) the spirit.

I'm not saying this is 'all figured out'.  Statutes and commandments may even be crossed   :?:   I have done some digging along these lines and I believe that there is something there that's just shy of being revealed to me.
 I once was blind but now I squint  :?  

You obviously like to dig into things and I admire that quality.  Maybe this will get some juices flowing.  I know part of the difficulty here for most will be the triune vs. biparte debate, but that's just how this works for me.

Daniel,

Quote
Wrath, Moses, the law, unbelief, the devil, the accuser while in the flesh.

Exactly along the lines of what I'm seeing....I think.  :P
Quote
The law is The ministry of "condemnation" where there is no condemnation in Christ. Its your accuser not your justifier. The good conscience is related to the resurrection.

The law is the ministry of condemnation and death physically/body.

2CO 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,
1CO 15:56  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

 This verse speaks of the physical death and grave.
Quote
To me speaks consistantly concerning who we trust, whether "Moses" or "Jesus Christ" and that which is discerned between the two.

I agree and would add that if we are being 'inChristed' as Christ is formed in us then we are free and free indeed from the law and the death and wrath that come with it.  But I don't think any of us would claim to be 100% 'inChristed'.


HEB 4:11  Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.
GAL 4:19  My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
 
This verse is speaking to believers/Christians who haven't been totally 'inChristed'.
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Deedle

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 02:52:55 PM »

Thanks for the replies.

Joh 8:5 (CLV)
Now in the law, Moses directs us that such are to be stoned. You, then, what are you saying? 6 Now this they said to try Him, that they may have something to accuse Him of. Now Jesus, stooping down, wrote down something with a finger in the earth." 7 Now as they persisted asking Him, He unbends and said to them, "Let the sinless one of you first cast a stone at her." 8 And, again stooping down, He wrote in the earth."

Any thoughts on the writing with the finger in the earth?

Keep the juices flowing!

Deedle  :D
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Deedle

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 03:00:15 PM »

Wow.

Luk 11:19  
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 20  But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luk 16:24  
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Mat 23:2  
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
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Daniel

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2006, 03:27:55 PM »

Daniel wrote

Quote
Wrath, Moses, the law, unbelief, the devil, the accuser while in the flesh.



Lightseeker  wrote


Quote
Exactly along the lines of what I'm seeing....I think.
 



Daniel wrote
Quote
The law is The ministry of "condemnation" where there is no condemnation in Christ. Its your accuser not your justifier. The good conscience is related to the resurrection.


Lightseeker writes


Quote
The law is the ministry of condemnation and death physically/body.


Daniel writes,

Heres where we differ a bit, I don't see it having anything to do with the physical body, but I don't argue that IT does not die, who would? You know anyone who has not? Not me.  :lol:

Yet there is "this body OF SIN" that is destroyed WHILE we live "in it" that sin hath no more dominion over one. That "henceforth" we should not serve it. Sins power is by the law and WILL have dominion (power) over one while HE LIVES (in the flesh after a spiritual truth). For IF you live AFTER the flesh you WILL DIE but IF you mortify the deeds of the body you will LIVE. Its kiling the body while in it, death to it, yet we can still live theough this procedure :lol:  The law of sin and death are only in motion WHILE IN THE FLESH. Yet it is true to the same that we are NOT IN THE FLESH but IN THE SPIRIT while paradoxically still literally and physically "in the flesh". Make any sense?

Lightseeker writes

Quote
2CO 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,


Daniel writes,

agreed the Ministry of death was indeed

2Cr 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.[/u]

Death reigned over living people, I see it more as a reign spiritually speaking, the "carnal mind" IS death and it reigned as Adam and Moses are both mentioned in the reign, that of the "first man" of the earth ( is earthly ) and Moses ( the law ) while "in the flesh" the motions of sins were "thereby" as Paul speaks on.

Lightseeker writes,

Quote
1CO 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. This verse speaks of the physical death and grave.



Daniel writes,

You get "that" from "this verse"? Howso curious? Has the natural death of our physical bodies have anything to do with this verse? (no doubt they do die) but how do you find a dead physical body relating to the "sting of death" being sin and the law and the victory that follows which is the very "opposite" of the law, but is of "faith".

Would not death which is the "last enemy" be equal to our carnality in the sense that our "carnal mind IS DEATH" and WE were enemies IN OUR MIND. Would it not rather be The MIND OF CHRIST which IS LIFE and PEACE "swallowing up" the CARNAL MIND (which IS DEATH) after a spiritual truth? Afterall MORTAL "puts ON" Immortality  which is "deathlessness" in the sense of passing over here and now as John speaks of... "We have passed from DEATH unto LIFE because we love the brethren. The carnal mind is "great hatred", would make sense of "deathlessness" being related after spiritual fruits even fruits of death or life in the comparison of corruptible and incurruption as is the "hidden man" of the heart.

Could death in scripture indicate something other (but not to the exclusion of the obvious) of our literal physical carcus? If His words are Spirit and the Spirit is truth (as they are) we are to compare spiritual with spiritual right? How does our bodies fit into that equation especcially considering what is dead can keep walking here? :lol:  (after the flesh and die or after the Spirit and live)

Keeping in Mind death can work to MANIFEST the "Life of Jesus Christ" in our MORTAL bodies. That we reign "in Life" by ONE (Him).

 Speaking elsewhere concerning our desire while "still in THIS tabernacle (the one we have now) is NOT that we would be UNCLOTHED but CLOTHED UPON with our house FROM heaven. That which is CORRUPT is our OLD MAN we PUT OFF NOW and the NEW MAN we put ON while we live. These being connected to the incorrptible nature of Him we are being made partakers of. See what I ask?

If the STING of death is sin, its power is held solely by the law while in the flesh (living after it) and hath dominion, sting, and condemnation. But Christ LOOSED the "PAINS" of death and this is connected with this very thing. The importance of Him coming to us a "Second time" WITHOUT SIN is to release the STING or the HURT in connection to "This death" which is linked to the law which is NOT of the faith which hath the victory the overcomers have through faith.

If Mortal cannot put on immortality scriptures then become untrue and I make God a liar. But we Put on Christ, who alone hath immortality. Peter knew when to say He had to PUT OFF "this tabernacle". But when putting ON immortality it was on "that" which is mortal. Signifyng to me to be clothed with Christ. Those who have have crucified the flesh and its lusts. These would need to be true though they might not be true of anyone of us at one time and then very true of us at another time.

Daniel
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chrissiela

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2006, 03:27:59 PM »

Quote from: Deedle
Thanks for the replies.

Joh 8:5 (CLV)
Now in the law, Moses directs us that such are to be stoned. You, then, what are you saying? 6 Now this they said to try Him, that they may have something to accuse Him of. Now Jesus, stooping down, wrote down something with a finger in the earth." 7 Now as they persisted asking Him, He unbends and said to them, "Let the sinless one of you first cast a stone at her." 8 And, again stooping down, He wrote in the earth."

Any thoughts on the writing with the finger in the earth?

Keep the juices flowing!

Deedle  :D


Deedle, He also WRITES His Laws on/in our Hearts (in the dust).

Tied to our 'conscience'

When he bent down and 'wrote in the earth" what happened?

    Joh 8:6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But
Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.  :shock:

Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Joh 8:8  And again  :shock:  he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

Joh 8:9  And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the ELDEST, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.[/list:u]

LOTS in there!!!  :wink:

Chrissie
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Daniel

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2006, 03:31:34 PM »

Deedle and Chrissie THAT was AWESOME!!!

Truly Beautiful!

God bless you both

Daniel
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mercie

  • Guest
there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2006, 03:34:58 PM »

Quote from: Deedle
Wow.

Luk 11:19  
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 20  But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luk 16:24  
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Mat 23:2  
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


Deedle :D  :D  :D

Many more wows to Behold.

as the layers unfold.

The law itself was a burden to the Right shoulder to be replaced by ANOTHERS Shoulder.

Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.



Isa 9:4For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.

Isa 9:5 For every battle of the warrior [is] with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but [this] shall be with burning [and] fuel of fire.


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this



the right shoulder of the Ram was used in the sacrifices

Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.

Exd 29:22 Also thou shalt take of the ram the fat and the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul [above] the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that [is] upon them, and the right shoulder; for it [is] a ram of consecration:

Num 18:18 And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine.

Job 31:22 [Then] let mine arm fall from my shoulder blade, and mine arm be broken from the bone.

Psa 81:6 I removed his shoulder from the burden: his hands were delivered from the pots.



Zec 7:8 And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying,


Zec 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: Zec 7:10(( And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.


Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder,"" and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.  


Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts [as] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Zec 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:


Zec 7:14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.


Isa 10:27 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.


Psa 38:4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.



Psa 55:22 Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

er 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring [it] in by the gates of Jerusalem;


Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?  

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage
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Daniel

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2006, 03:42:24 PM »

Amen Mercie! The Yoke is BROKEN because OF THE ANOINTING! The YOKE of BONDAGE to THE LAW (Whle yet IN THE FLESH) was TO CORRUPTION because the MOTIONS OF SINS WERE BY THE LAW.

The Annointing breaks it, we are "no longer in THE FLESH but IN THE SPIRIT. Only HE can set us FREE from the "Law of sin and death" BEING YET CARNAL.

Great stuff!

Daniel
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Lightseeker

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 11:52:44 PM »

Arrrh,
Daniel,
Sorry bro but I just lost a great big response.  Patience patience patience....not you..but me.  I don't have time to do it over now.  I'm supposed to teach at the men's breakfast ...at pastor's request.  :shock:  

But let me just say this one part again before I'm too far behind.

Quote
DeedleAny thoughts on the writing with the finger in the earth?

 
My 'non biblical' thoughts go right along with Chrissiela's post....go girl  8)   Jesus bent over and wrote the sins of these men and then looked at them.  Their hearts condemned them and they didn't have confidence before God to throw a stone.

1JO 3:21  Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.  
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Daniel

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2006, 12:12:49 AM »

Amen Lightseeker, you can see that here as well, I agree


Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts[/u], their conscience also bearing witness[/u] :idea:  and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another  :shock:


Without excuse for sure

Don't worry bro, it was not really directed at you but just asking how "in general" the thought to the verse is to the physical. Take your time, no rush, I've lost many a posts too :lol:

GOOD LUCK at the BREAKFAST :shock:  :lol:

Daniel :wink:
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Lightseeker

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2006, 02:29:53 PM »

Daniel

I really don't like posts this long.  It's just too much for me.  I have a tendency to skip through long ones, and I know I'm missing stuff doing that....but here goes.

Quote
Lightseeker writes
The law is the ministry of condemnation and death physically/body  

Daniel writes,
Heres where we differ a bit, I don't see it having anything to do with the physical body, but I don't argue that IT does not die, who would? You know anyone who has not? Not me.  :lol:


Not personally, but what about Melchisedec (Heb. 7:3,8 ), Enoch, Elijah and the apostle John (the wandering Jew. John 21:23)

Quote
Yet there is "this body OF SIN" that is destroyed WHILE we live "in it" that sin hath no more dominion over one. That "henceforth" we should not serve it. Sins power is by the law and WILL have dominion (power) over one while HE LIVES (in the flesh after a spiritual truth). For IF you live AFTER the flesh you WILL DIE but IF you mortify the deeds of the body you will LIVE. Its kiling the body while in it, death to it, yet we can still live theough this procedure :lol:  The law of sin and death are only in motion WHILE IN THE FLESH. Yet it is true to the same that we are NOT IN THE FLESH but IN THE SPIRIT while paradoxically still literally and physically "in the flesh". Make any sense?

 
I personally believe that if we truly destroyed the body of sin in us totally we would not die physically....that's the definiton of immortality.  Immortality is different than eternal life.

ROM 2:7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;  

This verse isn't speaking of life in the hereafter if we die.  It speaks of immortality here and now, I believe.  Jesus spoke of the same thing when talking to Martha about Lazarus.

JOH 11:25,26  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26  and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.
The whole discussion of Jesus here, with Martha, is talking about physical death of her brother and Jesus contrasts it with immortality.  I just don't think we, like Martha, really even believe that it's possible, let alone walk in that belief of overcoming physical death.  Partly because we've never been taught it.  Part of not being taught is because it's time was not yet come.  This truth is for that last generation I think.  I'm reading more about it in Christian authors.  I was taught it 30 years ago and am just now seeing others beginning to speak of these things.

Quote
Lightseeker writes,

1CO 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. This verse speaks of the physical death and grave.

Daniel writes,

You get "that" from "this verse"? Howso curious? Has the natural death of our physical bodies have anything to do with this verse? (no doubt they do die) but how do you find a dead physical body relating to the "sting of death" being sin and the law and the victory that follows which is the very "opposite" of the law, but is of "faith".


I don't get it from that verse but from the verse preceding which puts verse 56 in context I think.

1CO 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
How can we cheat physical death and the grave?  Only by overcoming.  It's obviously not by being resurrected from the grave...or by being clothed with glorified bodies because 'time ran out' and Jesus returned.

Quote
Would not death which is the "last enemy" be equal to our carnality in the sense that our "carnal mind IS DEATH" and WE were enemies IN OUR MIND. Would it not rather be The MIND OF CHRIST which IS LIFE and PEACE "swallowing up" the CARNAL MIND (which IS DEATH) after a spiritual truth? Afterall MORTAL "puts ON" Immortality  which is "deathlessness" in the sense of passing over here and now as John speaks of... "We have passed from DEATH unto LIFE because we love the brethren. The carnal mind is "great hatred", would make sense of "deathlessness" being related after spiritual fruits even fruits of death or life in the comparison of corruptible and incurruption as is the "hidden man" of the heart.


While I agree that carnality is DEATH...it is partly so because it assigns a death sentence unto our physical bodies.  James says 'sin when it becomes mature causes death'.  The death of what?  I believe it is the death of our soul and body (bear with me in my triune ignorance :wink: ).  Science has never been able to really figure out why we die.  I think they're missing the God factor that we no longer have access to the tree of life in our life unless, as you said, we pass from DEATH unto LIFE by walking in love.  Do you/I do that perfectly?  I don't.  And when we aren't, then I believe we are dying/aging.  There is a relatively new branch of healing called psychoneuroimmunology, which understands that our psychology affects our biology.  We actually program death into our bodies by harboring the deadly emotions that scripture says "don't have".  Emotions such as fear, anxiety, bitterness, unforgiveness, depression, resentment, anger ect.

Quote
Could death in scripture indicate something other (but not to the exclusion of the obvious) of our literal physical carcus? If His words are Spirit and the Spirit is truth (as they are) we are to compare spiritual with spiritual right? How does our bodies fit into that equation especcially considering what is dead can keep walking here? :lol:  (after the flesh and die or after the Spirit and live)


2CO 4:11  For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.   How is His life manifest in our mortal flesh?  I think it is with immortality.

2TI 1:10
 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life AND immortality to light through the gospel:  
 It is through the 'gospel of the kingdom' (how to walk here and now) that we will overcome or abolish death.  Are we walking in the gospel totally?  I wish I were.  If not then we will die eventually.

Quote
Keeping in Mind death can work to MANIFEST the "Life of Jesus Christ" in our MORTAL bodies. That we reign "in Life" by ONE (Him).
I agree and I think that's what I'm saying above.

 
Quote
Speaking elsewhere concerning our desire while "still in THIS tabernacle (the one we have now) is NOT that we would be UNCLOTHED but CLOTHED UPON with our house FROM heaven. That which is CORRUPT is our OLD MAN we PUT OFF NOW and the NEW MAN we put ON while we live. These being connected to the incorrptible nature of Him we are being made partakers of. See what I ask?


I do see 'what you're asking', and what you're saying is right on track. But I also think this is again talking about 'here and now' goal of Paul.   Paul was striving for the resurrection here and now in Philipians 3:10-12.  In those verses he speaks (in the Gr.) of two different resurrections (Anastasis, Exanastasis) and two deaths (Thantos, Nekros).  He said the only way to 'know the power of His resurrection' here and now was by becoming perfect...which Paul wasn't and didn't do.  Not a putdown...just not his calling IMO.  These Philip. verses aren't talking about the 'accept Jesus and be perfect at the 'assured'  'resurrection of the dead' type resurrection.

1PE 4:1,2  Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2  so as to live for the rest of __ time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.


Most translations add the/his before the word time in the verse above.  But it's not in the Greek.

Whew I'm done. :-k
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Daniel

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2006, 07:32:54 PM »

Lightseeker writes,

Quote
I really don't like posts this long. It's just too much for me. I have a tendency to skip through long ones, and I know I'm missing stuff doing that....but here goes.


Don't worry I'm not crazy over wresting over every thing :lol:  I was curious. I was asking "in general". Trying to show "one thought" by using various places I found the same thing explained differently throughout. Actually we appear to be very close Lightseeker.

Lightseeker writes (concerning those who appeared to have never physically died)

Quote
Not personally, but what about Melchisedec (Heb. 7:3,8 ), Enoch, Elijah and the apostle John (the wandering Jew. John 21:23)


That indeed is written, I've heard various things on everyside. Why then not the same standard applied to "physical death" here as applied to Adam. (if it means that at all) Unless its showing us something else altogether. The same words Enoch did not see death is spoken of by Jesus Christ to others.

Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, "before" he had seen the Lord's Christ.[/u]


Psalm 89:49 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?[/u] Selah.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found[/u], "because" God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.[/u]


I think the word "never" is being disputed? I don't know, perhaps its the word "not" instead? Psalm 89:49 speaks of a question concerning "who will not see death"? is Jesus answering that question?

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.[/u]

Yet since (as far as I can see, because I have the "evil KJV  :lol: ) the word "death" mean the same as below, even the "passed over" related to the same word "translated" being removed from one place to the next as Enoch (after a spiritual place)

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.[/u]

When I type in "Translated" in the scriptures it takes me directly to Enoch and being "translated" from "the power" of darkness (defined as hated, perhaps carnality?) into Light.

Power of an "indestructable life" in that regard?

Lightseeker writes,
Quote
I personally believe that if we truly destroyed the body of sin in us totally we would not die physically....that's the definiton of immortality. Immortality is different than eternal life.


I was thinking the same thing too. I wonder if immortality is as the "incorruptable nature" or "death-less-ness" (as even Ray puts it). Why count the flesh as "something" when it counts for nothing in the equation, is what I'm thinking. Thats where I was going mostly in the thread. Living AFTER "the Flesh" would be living after its lusts (which are unseen by nature) Yet though we live in the flesh we walk not after it. Elsewhere it says we are NOT in the flesh. Theres an inner translating here. By the law (which is good) is wherby the "motions of sins" are WHILE YET "In the flesh". No doubt the outward man perishes, or this physical body dies in its time (I'm not even interested in keeping it really lol). But it does say that MORTAL "Puts ON" immortality. I agree with you in this Lightseeker, I see it here and now as well. I began to ask, "what would that "look like"? You can almost see Jesus asking, "what do you expect to see"?

Here is what I was thinking, if eternal life is to "know God" (even in this) they do not abide "in death" anymore. It was a "state" even of carnality (the unseen nature of a corruptible man). So likewise would not "immortality" be a state of "deathlessness" of a different kind (not of carnal but spiritual hid within this body). His life swallowing up ours. In otherwords, we are not found as Enoch was not found, because we are "found in Him" given a new name. Thats how I am seeing it by way of comparison.

 Lightseeker writes
Quote
ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
This verse isn't speaking of life in the hereafter if we die. It speaks of immortality here and now, I believe. Jesus spoke of the same thing when talking to Martha about Lazarus.


I'm with you bro :D
This is interesting as it too can relate to what Enochs name "means" which is "dedicated". The words, " not see death" is alongside of Him who was dedicated to God. Or perhaps even as Jesus spoke in relationship to "keeping his saying". Enoch not being found for God took Him can also be as being translated "into Him" (The light) in whom there is no darkness. Being found in Him. It says of Enoch that he had the testimony that he "pleased God" even "before" his translation. The passing (in John) from death unto life seems to agree (spiritually speaking). Seeking "deathlessness" perhaps seeking to walk in Christ and put on those things which are attributes of Him. For "In seeking" as the picture shows Enoch (who was dedicated) who walked with God (who teaches) and God fulfilled his word.


I see that HIM we are seeking (glory, honor and immortality) and HIM that is given (eternal life). In other words…. When we seek HIM, (we find Him) and we receive HIM. Glory and honor and immorality belong TO HIM and He IS “the (eternal) LIFE? that we receive.

I think we are on the same page not sure but sounds it perhaps a few tweeks of difference, but who cares right? :lol:

Lightseeker writes
Quote
While I agree that carnality is DEATH...it is partly so because it assigns a death sentence unto our physical bodies. James says 'sin when it becomes mature causes death'. The death of what? I believe it is the death of our soul and body (bear with me in my triune ignorance  ).


You were going good bro  :lol:  :wink: Were talking FRUIT unto death and abiding in carnality we are called to come out of that. When Paul said he was alive apart from the law and sin revived and he died. What died in Paul? Can a man live being killed by the commandment? Ofcourse, this is where I see dying not being in anyway shape or form spiritually speaking of the body. Twicedead while living is even spoken of in scripture. I see it as continuing to walk after the flesh.

Lightseeker writes
Quote
Science has never been able to really figure out why we die. I think they're missing the God factor that we no longer have access to the tree of life in our life unless


Thats like saying we have no access to Jesus Christ, not through the law or after the flesh to him who "overcomes" he gives and in John they had overcome. Being caught up to paradise never needed the physical death of the body to do it, Paul shows this knowing one who had been caught up to paradise where the tree of life is.

Then again we run into a problem, if the body without the spirit is dead (or soul) Paul should have known it was and not even to guess that it was "out of the body" (at all) but "in the body" :lol:  But he did not "know" or "cannot tell"? :lol:  :wink:

Lightseeker writes,
Quote
as you said, we pass from DEATH unto LIFE by walking in love. Do you/I do that perfectly? I don't.


Don't mean what is untrue of us now will not be. But we are to be "perfected in His love" scripture speaks of this. Just anyone of us are not there yet doesn't make His power "to become" and be "made perfect" in it void. Waiting for what we do not see it yet but it will come. As we have believed here you know? :lol:  We wouldn't want to decide this is untrue simply because it was not "ours" yet. We would hope toward that and believe for Him because we know He does not lie. Convinced being without uncertainty concerning Him.

Lightseeker writes
Quote
We actually program death into our bodies by harboring the deadly emotions that scripture says "don't have". Emotions such as fear, anxiety, bitterness, unforgiveness, depression, resentment, anger ect.


Thats what perfect love casts out, he that fears is simply not made perfect in love. But Him being the Author and finisher of our faith (which works by love) will accomplish even this in us. In fact we are taught by God to love one another as all things are made beautiful in His time. His timing is perfect. :D

You wrote more I too agree with the points you raised in those (I think, as you would say) No need to answer back if you don't feel like it (laughing)  because I know that must have been more then you desired to write huh? :lol:

You wrote

Quote
Whew I'm done.


Whew me too :lol: Thanks for taking your time to answering concerning my curiosity on these things. I always like to know where one might be coming from on something. You enlightened me on that, thanks :wink:

And you thought yours was long :lol:  :oops:

Peace

Daniel
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Lightseeker

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2006, 01:16:53 PM »

Daniel,

OK bro here I go again but at least it's a little shorter.  :D
 
Quote
I was thinking the same thing too. I wonder if immortality is as the "incorruptable nature" or "death-less-ness" (as even Ray puts it). Why count the flesh as "something" when it counts for nothing in the equation, is what I'm thinking. Thats where I was going mostly in the thread. Living AFTER "the Flesh" would be living after its lusts (which are unseen by nature) Yet though we live in the flesh we walk not after it.


I think the incorruptable nature comes from our born again spirit.  And I don't think a spirit is ever mortal and therefore immortality doesn't apply to the spirit, in my way of thinking.  And living after the flesh is committing deeds which I think are seen by nature (not sure what you meant by "unseen by nature" here)

ROM 8:12,13  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
If this verse meant 'doing deeds' gets you into life in the hereafter, then that would negate "salvation by grace/faith".  So the "life" in this verse, I think, is talking about the physical life of here and now. It's not talking about deeds that you do..do, it's talking about deeds that you DON'T do...to live.  Deeds that we are supposed to do, end up in rewards in the hereafter.

Quote
This is interesting as it too can relate to what Enochs name "means" which is "dedicated". The words, " not see death" is alongside of Him who was dedicated to God. Or perhaps even as Jesus spoke in relationship to "keeping his saying".
 Good imput.  I like what you've found here.
Quote

I think we are on the same page not sure but sounds it perhaps a few tweeks of difference, but who cares right?

Daniel I like your spirit here, it speaks well for you.  When you're on the edge of thinking about things, it's always good to have someone else close enough to stick a hand out and help...not push.  

The smartest theologian has never plumbed God's depths and yet He is still shallow enough for a 5 year old to come to saving revelation. God is so COOL.

Quote
Then again we run into a problem, if the body without the spirit is dead (or soul) Paul should have known it was and not even to guess that it was "out of the body" (at all) but "in the body"  But he did not "know" or "cannot tell"?

 In that verse the word "soma" was used for body.  It is defined as "the whole"  whereas "sarx" would have been the word if Paul meant his flesh went with him.  So I'm wondering, if Paul wondered, if he was only there 'in his spirit'.  Don't know.

Quote
Don't mean what is untrue of us now will not be. But we are to be "perfected in His love" scripture speaks of this. Just anyone of us are not there yet doesn't make His power "to become" and be "made perfect" in it void.

Totally agree.  But don't you believe that we all will have different 'stations' or 'rewards' based upon how much we 'walked in love' (or how many of our 'deeds' were truly 'of Him' and not just dead religious works?).
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Daniel

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2006, 04:42:17 PM »

Lightseeker writes,

Hey bro, thanks so much, I hope your breakfast went well the other day :wink:  :lol:

Quote
living after the flesh is committing deeds which I think are seen by nature (not sure what you meant by "unseen by nature" here)


What I meant, is that though we living visibly in the flesh, once the Spirit is shed abroad in our hearts, through whom we mortify the "deeds" of the flesh we walk no more after it, but in the Spirit. By unseen I mean you cant physically "see" hatred, except it visibly manifest as what we might see as murder (dead body, you know :wink: ). Yet hating ones brother is being a murderer and is not something seen with the eye, it's "hidden" but "felt" and perceived. You yourself would perceive anothers hatred for you without seen "the word" tatooed on ones forehead right? :lol:  Thats what I mean by the corrupt carnal man and its fruits of death, its "way". Not looking at the visible flesh we all live in but the flesh (after the spiritual truth it represents concerning the corrrupt man of the heart). Hows that Light? Did I clarify that better? :lol:

Lightseeker writes,

Quote
ROM 8:12,13 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
If this verse meant 'doing deeds' gets you into life in the hereafter, then that would negate "salvation by grace/faith". So the "life" in this verse, I think, is talking about the physical life of here and now. It's not talking about deeds that you do..do, it's talking about deeds that you DON'T do...to live. Deeds that we are supposed to do, end up in rewards in the hereafter.


Not at all, I'm not even comparing this verse to the life to come but the life that "now is" in this life yet not of it (if I said that right :lol: ).

I see it as being now, living after the flesh you DIE to SEEING "the life" that NOW IS. But I also see that if by the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the flesh we would SEE "the life" that NOW IS. I see it as putting off the Old man and His practices (his deeds). Summed up in the same thought expressed elsewhere in scripture. Not at all speaking of "dying in the physical body" and "going to heaven". No that was not my line of thinking.

I was seing this in relation to these

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Ephes 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which "is corrupt" according to the "deceitful lusts"

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

I too agree with you Lightseeker concerning the doing of good

 James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, "to him" it is sin.[/u]  We are definately not to immitate what is evil, I think you'd agree with that.


I can see we are recompensed "here" somewhat

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Prov 11:31 Behold, "the righteous" shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.[/u]  :shock:

Prov 11:17 The "merciful man" doeth good to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.[/u] (our own way returned upon us)

2Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;[/u]

And yet recieving "in ourselves" by being filled with HIM who is our great reward.

1Titus 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are "otherwise" cannot be hid.[/u]

Those that be "otherwise" are filled to the contrary

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, etc.

The former are filled

Phill 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Howso?

Prov 18:20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.[/u] :shock:

Just as Jesus said of our words it sounds like don't it?

Prov 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.[/u]

Prov 12:28  In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.[/u]

Lightseeker writes
Quote
God is so COOL.


I completely agree with you bro  :wink:   :D

I wrote

Quote
Then again we run into a problem, if the body without the spirit is dead (or soul) Paul should have known it was and not even to guess that it was "out of the body" (at all) but "in the body" But he did not "know" or "cannot tell"?


Lightseeker reponds

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In that verse the word "soma" was used for body. It is defined as "the whole" whereas "sarx" would have been the word if Paul meant his flesh went with him. So I'm wondering, if Paul wondered, if he was only there 'in his spirit'. Don't know.


Wow, didn't know that, thanks for telling me, I still don't know either don't feel bad   :lol:

I wrote concerning "being perfected"

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Don't mean what is untrue of us now will not be. But we are to be "perfected in His love" scripture speaks of this. Just anyone of us are not there yet doesn't make His power "to become" and be "made perfect" in it void.


Lightseeker writes

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Totally agree. But don't you believe that we all will have different 'stations' or 'rewards' based upon how much we 'walked in love' (or how many of our 'deeds' were truly 'of Him' and not just dead religious works?).


Never thought of that this way Lightseeker. I always saw the Lord Himself and His life manifesting in me (if that would so be) as my highest reward. I truly believed HE IS and as He said to Abraham, "I am thy sheild and exceedingly great reward". As Jesus says, "My reward is WITH ME" He is with the Father in these types as To those who overcome by being obedient unto Him he says, "I will give the Morning star" well we know He said, "I AM the Morning Star". So I see what we are seeking IS HIM and eternal life which is to KNOW HIM and Him manifesting Himself to me is all the reward I truly desire, I'm being honest. But If I got some "nifty stuff" up ahead of me I think I'll run past whatever "those things" might be :lol:

I see exactly what your saying, but I was more thinking of those things which cannot be hid here, the blessing of knowing Him and being filled as it speaks. The precious promises of being a partaker of His divine nature. But yeah Jesus said of those seeing the praise of men (as the dead don't praise HIM) they have their reward, their crown etc. To me it manifests here and now in walking with God. Its easy to believe in a God in the past, even moreso a God after your dead, its believing in the God who IS and is an ongoing rewarder of those who dilengently seek Him. He is true to this very thing.

I must say Lightseeker, it is so refreshing to talk to someone as cordial as yourself. Thats rare for me, especially in the humility you exhibit. I appreciate you bro, the same for you, your way speaks well of you. His blessings be yours.

Peace to you in Him :D

Daniel
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Lightseeker

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there is one that accuseth you, even Moses
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2006, 08:16:28 PM »

Daniel,

You remembered my breakfast??? Cool!  It went very well.  Two of the guys came up after and said they hoped the pastor would let me finish what I had started.  We were talking about the emotion Anger.  I added all negative emotions into the equation and then taught about psychoneuroimmunology and how we need to tear down the strongholds of thinking which we've built up over years of GI...Garbage In, and start renewing our minds with GO...Garbage Out.

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What I meant, is that though we living visibly in the flesh, once the Spirit is shed abroad in our hearts, through whom we mortify the "deeds" of the flesh we walk no more after it, but in the Spirit. By unseen I mean you cant physically "see" hatred, except it visibly manifest as what we might see as murder (dead body, you know  ). Yet hating ones brother is being a murderer and is not something seen with the eye, it's "hidden" but "felt" and perceived. You yourself would perceive anothers hatred for you without seen "the word" tatooed on ones forehead right?  Thats what I mean by the corrupt carnal man and its fruits of death, its "way". Not looking at the visible flesh we all live in but the flesh (after the spiritual truth it represents concerning the corrrupt man of the heart). Hows that Light? Did I clarify that better?


Gotcha!

2CO 5:6,7
 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

What's at home in the body?  I believe it is our spirit.  And if we're led by the spirit then we aren't going to be led by our fleshly eye which is the window to the soul.  We will still use physical eyesight to keep from falling over the log in the practical realm of earth though.   It's sort of like being in the world but not of the world.

Love how you come up with so many scriptures supporting a POV.  And quickly too.  Are they all part of a study or are they all just in your head and you computer them to post?

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Never thought of that this way Lightseeker. I always saw the Lord Himself and His life manifesting in me (if that would so be) as my highest reward. I truly believed HE IS and as He said to Abraham, "I am thy sheild and exceedingly great reward". As Jesus says, "My reward is WITH ME" He is with the Father in these types as To those who overcome by being obedient unto Him he says, "I will give the Morning star" well we know He said, "I AM the Morning Star". So I see what we are seeking IS HIM and eternal life which is to KNOW HIM and Him manifesting Himself to me is all the reward I truly desire, I'm being honest. But If I got some "nifty stuff" up ahead of me I think I'll run past whatever "those things" might be


Like you, I too see/believe there are temporal rewards, but I see hereafter rewards too.  The judgment seat of Christ is one of our works...not for entering life in the hereafter but for ruling/reigning in the hereafter.  There were two groups in Revelation.  One group stands before the throne in robes of righteousness (Rev 7:14,15) and the other group sits on the throne with Christ (Rev 3:21).  The coveted position is for 'those that overcome' and not just warm a pew.  Who will we reign/rule over?  How about those before the throne?  How about those who were never called in this age?  Just a thought.

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I must say Lightseeker, it is so refreshing to talk to someone as cordial as yourself. Thats rare for me, especially in the humility you exhibit. I appreciate you bro, the same for you, your way speaks well of you. His blessings be yours.


I'm even more humbled Daniel by your gracious comment.  Thank you.  I've learned a lot of things the hard way over many years.  I used to cut people so low they could sit on a dollar bill and dangle their legs.  I was very proud of myself...but God wasn't.  I used my knowledge of scripture to hurt and not to heal.  I don't care how stupid we think some of God's children are doctrinally...they are still His children.  And God does chastize/scourge those of us who need it.  Why does He scourge us?  So we'll die sooner on our cross...just like Jesus did.

Quittin time.  Hey they're gettin shorter...I like that.  :wink:
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