Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[YellowStone]

yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....

I'm not sure....what would have happened to history, to us, if Peter had prevented Jesus' capture?

One other point, is not Ceaser, Bush and Blair? Were they not put in their place of leadership by the will of God? Are their actions not of God? If I hate or disagree with them, am I not also hating/disagreeing with God>

I'm not seeing any confusion here, am I missing something; is this not Go's plan. Have not these two men demonstrated to the world that terror will no longer tolerated, and that all of God's creation have a right to live in peace, with not thought of death or harm from others.

Do you think God wants this? Do you think these two world leaders are hurting "the least of these" or helping?

Enough said....much love to you Becky

Yellowstone

[Becky]

i'm sticking with jesus' command and I guess God will let me know which way to go...someday...

thanks for the food for thought...


(directed to all here): why is it that this is such a debated topic?? (wanting to know why it isn't so "clear" to all and why we're not in agreement??)

 :?:  :?:  :?:

[chrissiela]

yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....

Mat 26:51  And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand,

and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/list:u]


Do you see a spiritual application to those verses?

In that the Word of God is a ‘sword’ and that we are to live and die by that ‘sword’ (He came not to send peace but a 'sword' into the earth)… and in that the servant’s EAR was "smote off" by the yielding of the sword ‘out of his place’??

Chrissie  :wink:

[Becky]

John 18:36  

 36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.



James 4:12    

 12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?


Matthew 26:52  

 52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.



Leviticus 19:18    

 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.  (so would i kill myself if i have done wrong, if we are to "hate" our neighbor as ourselves)


Romans 12:19    

 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.   (god avenges.... we are not God... let him take care of it)



Luke 18:7    

 7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?




Matthew 5:43-44    

 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;  (pretty clear-cut to me, but i am only one person here)


Ephesians 6:20    

 20For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak

[Becky]

yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....

Mat 26:51  And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand,

and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/list:u]


Do you see a spiritual application to those verses?

In that the Word of God is a ‘sword’ and that we are to live and die by that ‘sword’ (He came not to send peace but a 'sword' into the earth)… and in that the servant’s EAR was "smote off" by the yielding of the sword ‘out of his place’??

Chrissie  :wink:

oh yeah, i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal... he is very specific about what is included in the armor... the verses that i give... have more than just sword to see as only whe word... matthew's verse is especially specific....

also... we are ambassadors... do ambassadors vote in the country the are visiting..or join the army???  christ said IF his kingdom was of this world, then we'd fight...

he definately said to not resist the government... so who are we to interfere with other country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??

I know that this is God's plan, but we cannot use that as an excuse to join in their evil..

why are we any better killing them than them killing us??


"enough said" for me too.... I thank you all for inspiring me to research more and be more aware of the extremely difficuly task it is to be in the "army" of God. :wink:

[chrissiela]

Becky, it was just food for thought. I was not speaking for or against the war.

And, no, I do not believe that the armour of God is literal either.  :wink:

Chrissie

[Becky]

no, i know that's waht you were saying... no bad feelings against any here...

it is ALL of God.. it does not worry me.  I have no need to prove anything.. all in due time

[Becky]

I GET IT!  WHOOOOHOOOOOOOO! YES!

[YellowStone]

yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....

Mat 26:51  And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand,

and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/list:u]


Do you see a spiritual application to those verses?

In that the Word of God is a ‘sword’ and that we are to live and die by that ‘sword’ (He came not to send peace but a 'sword' into the earth)… and in that the servant’s EAR was "smote off" by the yielding of the sword ‘out of his place’??

Chrissie  :wink:

oh yeah, i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal... he is very specific about what is included in the armor... the verses that i give... have more than just sword to see as only whe word... matthew's verse is especially specific....

also... we are ambassadors... do ambassadors vote in the country the are visiting..or join the army???  christ said IF his kingdom was of this world, then we'd fight...

he definately said to not resist the government... so who are we to interfere with other country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??

I know that this is God's plan, but we cannot use that as an excuse to join in their evil..

why are we any better killing them than them killing us??


"enough said" for me too.... I thank you all for inspiring me to research more and be more aware of the extremely difficuly task it is to be in the "army" of God. :wink:

Becky,

I want share something with you, by no means do you have to agree, but your thoughts are more than welcome.
 
You wrote: "oh yeah, i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal"

Why? Who would you blame if the US governemnt / military did nothing since 911. Who would be at fault if every major city in the US and Europe  had had devesating attacks and millions of innocents (the least of these) had lost their lives.

Who would be the blame?  Would it be Bush or God. Of course one can blame Bush, but not without blaming God. Remember that faith is not enough. Mammoth pointed the following out very clearly:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a
minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

Regarding Verse 4 (above)-Because of this mandate the civil government would be in disobedience not to bring wrath on those who do evil because it is given the sword for that purpose.

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:

Remember what Jesus said:

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

You wrote:  "i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal... "

I believe we can also know that the armor of God is also literal. We are commanded to do what is good, we also told that "For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil." Who mighter than God, sanctioned these leaders, truth to tell neither you or I.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I know many refute James for these words, but is anyone of us truly at peace with God, knowing that there are lunatics out there who want to see the death of all the West, and not even praying for God's will to be done, even by the hands of elected rulers. If one then shouts, "Of course I pray for God's will every day" Then this discussion is meaningless, for there would be no point in blaming anyone for the death of a terrorist and sworn enemy of the State.

I believe God is testing our strength and resolve every day. One may argue: "That's why we must love these terrorists, even though they have killed, are killing and will kill again"

But the truth of the matter is that many confuse revenge with protecting the least of these. I do not hate these people, but i won't stand by and let them hurt those who cannot defend themeselves.

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Are we helping such as these by following your following words:

"he definately said to not resist the government... so who are we to interfere with other country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??

I know that this is God's plan, but we cannot use that as an excuse to join in their evil.. ":

Am I mistaken, but are you indicating that we who interfere with another country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??, are doing so outside of God's will in order to protect the least of these, under the accordance of a leadership, "for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil. " Rom 13:4

As James clearly stated: Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. To not support those whose goal is to bring peace and freedom to places that have been at war since biblical times, is to support something other than God. For nothing happens outside his will, and this my dear sister Becky, is not an excuse.

May God bring comfort and Love to each one of us in these trying times.

Gid Bless,

Yellowstone

[Becky]

hmmm lemme print it out, read over it tonight and give it some goooood thought.  thanks!

Becky

[YellowStone]

hmmm lemme print it out, read over it tonight and give it some goooood thought.  thanks!

Becky

[mannonthecross]

Hi you guys,

We live on the Canadian border. As you may know, just this week 17 (I believe) terrorist trainees were arrested because they had planned to blow up several major buildings in Canada & behead (?),(a high ranking official).

Just last month or last week several of these were caught running guns from Canada into the US, at the Buffalo crossing.

In addition, not only do we live on the Canadian border, we live in Lackawanna, NY, home of the Lackawanna 6 (terrorist sleeper cell group). These men lived, worshipped & planned a mere 1/4 mile down the road from our humble little Fellowship.

Just today, our daughter & granddaughter were headed to Canada for a school field trip. Anxiety was high among the parents as is Security Alert at the border. Homeland Security has so graciously (sarcasm intended) seen fit to cut funding by 40%.

This is the realty at home. This is not talking about a war 1/2 a world away that we can idealize pros & cons. The terrorists are of a reprobate mind. They neither know nor care to know the love of God, & we are the infidels.

Have I lost my peace? With all the measure of faith that I have been given, I hold fast to all that God is in me & I cast my cares upon Him.

Was I fearful about our girls going to Canada today? I'd be lying if I said otherwise, even knowing that God is in control. When it affects one personally, it changes your perspective & your ideals.

God's Word admonishes us to: 1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Turning the other cheek does not mean that you become a sitting duck, as it were. Protecting the least of the little ones includes taking the offensive as the Lord has so mandated.

Also, a most excellent Scripture to ponder in addition to my previous post is 1Jo 3:17  But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?
1Jo 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.

How can the "Christian" world sit by & simply talk about the compassion for all the "little ones" who were and who are still being mercilessly slaughtered?

God does & wills to use the military of the USA to stem the tide of evil.

Anyway, on a lighter note-That's my story & I'm sticking to it.  

[YellowStone]

Hi you guys,

........ [Some cut to save space] ........

Turning the other cheek does not mean that you become a sitting duck, as it were. Protecting the least of the little ones includes taking the offensive as the Lord has so mandated.

Also, a most excellent Scripture to ponder in addition to my previous post is 1Jo 3:17  But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?
1Jo 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.

How can the "Christian" world sit by & simply talk about the compassion for all the "little ones" who were and who are still being mercilessly slaughtered?

God does & wills to use the military of the USA to stem the tide of evil.

Anyway, on a lighter note-That's my story & I'm sticking to it.  

Manonthecross, your use of scripture is flawless; thank you so much for posting them as I could not seem to locate any scriptual proof to really support what I was trying to say.

I can only imagine what it must be like living so close to terror; the thought of such a thing seems so foreign and as you stated we must remain sober and watchful; but all the more so, be ready and willing to take action against the forces of evil, even before they attack the little ones.

I will be sure to pray for you, your family and those that you love. These are indeed difficult times, but our God is with us every step.

Thanks for sharing Manonthecross,

With Love,

YellowStone

[Alan]

God works all things according to the counsel of His will.

What I see is that in Romans 13, Paul is saying that the authorities do have the right to take the sword, but only because they have do not have Christ living in them. (many called, unbelievers)

God uses them, even though they are blind and deaf, just as God uses T.V. evangelists for His good purpose.

As for the elect of God, we are commanded to love our enemies and that's our law and this is truth.

The natural man has no clue to the things of the Spirit.

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

These spiritual words are for us......not them.

We know the war is wrong, only in that God's Elect know the truth, but we also know that God is using this war for His good purpose.

Amo 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

We are not to be of this world, so our only concern should be to obey Christ's commandments......which is to LOVE!

[Alan]

Hi you guys,

........ [Some cut to save space] ........

Turning the other cheek does not mean that you become a sitting duck, as it were. Protecting the least of the little ones includes taking the offensive as the Lord has so mandated.


God does & wills to use the military of the USA to stem the tide of evil.

Anyway, on a lighter note-That's my story & I'm sticking to it.  

Taking the offensive is fine, as long as it abides within the Royal Law of Christ and His doctrine.

God does will the use of the military, but he's only using those who do not have Him living inside of them.

Our governing authorities serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden.

Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world.

Alan

[YellowStone]

Taking the offensive is fine, as long as it abides within the Royal Law of Christ and His doctrine.

God does will the use of the military, but he's only using those who do not have Him living inside of them.

Our governing authorities serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden.

Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world.

Alan

Alan, It is simply not enough walking and talking above everyone else; remember how Christ chastised the pharisees for their disdain of all not of their order. Not for a moment should we think that we cannot fall into the same trap. Unfortunately, neither you, I or any one else in this world is free from the influence of Satan.

Jesus himself was meek and never walked with airs.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

So Alan you say that our world leaders (read President Bush) " serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden."

Really!! So may I ask you how YOU can read a man's or woman's heart in order to discern what is inside. I thought that was only something that God can do. Are you certain of that, I mean willing to argue with Christ that "He" was mistaken, that our authorities did not have God in their hearts. Really, you know this? I think not. We, each one of us is the living proof of the will of God.

But your above quote is double-side, which is something God's Word is never.  You state that our authorities are put in place by God but serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden, really!!!  And you know this?

You state that: "Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world."

Not true my friend.

Alan, please consider the words of John:

1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?

Now the words of Jesus:

Alan, how will you answer Jesus when he say's to you:

Mat 25:45 ......Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives.

Remember what Jesus taught:

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.  

Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.  

Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.  

Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],  

Luk 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.  

Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.  

Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?  

Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.  

So if anyone of us, distances from ourselves from those in need, (just as the Priest and the Levite) is distancing ourselves from God, for what ever we do (or not) for the lowest of these, we do likewise to Christ. Are we so prideful of our relationship with God that we ignore such as these.

Gosh I hope not; Alan, we are mandated to act, to help; and like it or not, our authorities are in place by the will of God and not Satan.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.

With Love,

Yellowstone

[JJ]

So far so good!  Everyone is discussing one of the most touchy subjects
and being nice!   So many good posts to think on!  Keep up the good
attitudes!    
JJ

[gmik]

Just got home and read this entire thread.  Lots of good ideas, thoughts, opinions, and great scripture.

Isn't it funny that every idea and opinion, totally opposites, can find and use their own scriptures that seem to prove their point?

here is my 2 cents:   I tend to agree with the scriptures that manonthcross and yellowstone used.

No, I don't REJOICE that a man died.    I do REJOICE that so many innocents will now be spared.  He was an awful evil man.  I used to could rejoice that he would suffer in Hell.  Now I know that he will be tried and purged but he will "get saved" in the end.  So, I am glad his life finished early just to spare others.

My son served in the Marines 8 years.  He is not uber-patriotic but didn't want to kill anybody.  But he did want to protect the innocent.

America is not perfect, and I know I am just a traveling thru since this world isnot my home, But I praise the Lord that I live here and had the freedom to stumble onto this website.  Maybe it is still an idol of the heart, but no way can I compare Bush with BinLaden.  

God puts who he wants in power and we are to pray for them.  God has not had Bush hacksaw anyones head off.  A "king" of a nation that sends an army out is usually not called a murderer.  Perhaps God is using America to punish the sins of the Iraqis.  Didn't he cause the holocaust to punish the Jew??

This is all of God.  When God wants Osama found , then he will be found.

[Sorin]

Gena,

Out of all the posts posted on this thread I tend to agree with yours the most.
where do people get off comparing President Bush with a terrorist, a cold blooded killer like Bin Laden?

Look what the so called "peaceful muslims" have in their little Allah book of theirs. This religion is pure evil, I personally believe Allah is Satan.

Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’�

[zander]

Its a modern Christian crusade against innocent people who have never threatened us.

Christianity is no less evil than their warped islamic views.  You cant tell me that Bush or Blair dont beleive in an eternal fire either.  Pots and kettles.  

Leave one another alone