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=> Testimonies / Prayer Requests / Fellowship => Topic started by: mickiel on June 09, 2012, 02:00:00 PM
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I was watching another Ray vedio and was surprised to hear him say some here came from Worldwide, I was in there myself for 10 years. After I left I knew I probally would never try another church again. I was thinking about the thread I asked to be closed here and I never really got into explaining the path that led me to thinking about Gods Image being consciousness, and the scriptures involved in that path of thinking. I think I owe at least that explination. Again, not to convince, or beat a dead horse here, but to explain my path of thinking; I would never believe something that is not in scripture.
In Gen. 1:26-27 what distingushes us from all other things? I think consciousness is the answer. Consciousness is the governor of human behavior, and if you read Col. 3:11 where it states that Christ is " All and in All", that verse was one of the paths to my thinking on this. How can Christ be All and " In" all? Does that mean everyone has the Holy Spirit of God? Well no, can't mean that. But, everyone has a consciousness, and it is there that Christ is all and " In All." We all have a consciousness.
In 1Corinth. 15:49 I believe the " Image of the earthy" is consciousness. In Gen. 5:3 Adams son was in his " Image and Likeness", which I view as him being conscious as Adam was.
Consciousness is awareness, thoughts and feelings; degree of reflection,activity; internal knowledge; " Waking Life." One can say all of these things actually describe Jesus relation to the Father, since Jesus is the Image of God. I think we can rightly say he is the exact representation of God, or he is the collective thought of God; he is the awareness of God, the knowledge of God , the intrests of God, the concerns of God are expressed in him; I think we can then surely say that Jesus is the consciousness of God.
Consciousness is " Waking awareness", in John 11:25 Jesus said " I am the ressurection", or he is the waking awareness! When a human mind is taken from the path of deception and placed on the path of the truth, that " New Consciousness" is a ressurection of sorts, or waking awareness; something that is now in your mind that was not there before, and you didnot put it there yourself.
Consciousness is wisdom - knowing how it is or what it is like.
In Romans 8:29, we are predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son. You can almost put " Consciousness" everywhere image appears and not retard the integrity of the meaning of scripture. In some cases receive more meaning. Conformed to the Consciousness of his Son, or receive the " Mind of Christ." How can we have Christ mind? Well we can be placed on the actual path of his consciousness, or awareness; his waking awareness; his ressurection- it all still fits together. And if you study this, you will see it keeps fitting together in a definte path of scripture.
In Heb. 1:3 , Jesus is " The express Image of God", the radiance of his glory, the " Exact representation of his nature", all this points to him having the consciousness of his Father. The exactness is moreso in consciousness, or the concerns and intrests of God; the activity of God; the thoughts and feelings of God; the internal knowledge of God; the collective thought of God, OR, the consciousness of God.
Jesus " Ressembles God"; how do we resemble God? Well we think; we are conscious; we are " Like him."
In 1Corinth. 8:7 it mentions a conscious being weak is defiled. What do demons go after in order to defile a human.? They target the conscious, they look to distort the image, therefore perverting the path the person may be on toward truth.
Anyhow I just wanted to give the respect of some scriptures as to why I believe this; I would never believe something that is not biblical. I apoligise, I should have shown some scriptures in my first thread and explained and shared why. So I just thought I would give that respect and mu mind can at least be at rest and peace, not wanting to share things without biblical explination.
Anyhow, there are more scriptures, but I wanted to at least leave these few.
Peace.
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Hi Mickiel,
Reading your several recent letters makes me curious to get to know more about you. If you would like we can share additional detail in P M's private messages, to avoid exposing ourselves to any spam from casual readers.
I am particularly interested in your history with WCG and how you came to join yourself to them and why you left after so many years. I had similar experiences and family difficulties etc. from 1969 to 1999.
Please contact me privately in "my messages" section if interested.
Sincerely, Indianabob
I was watching another Ray vedio and was surprised to hear him say some here came from Worldwide, I was in there myself for 10 years. After I left I knew I probally would never try another church again. I was thinking about the thread I asked to be closed here and I never really got into explaining the path that led me to thinking about Gods Image being consciousness, and the scriptures involved in that path of thinking. I think I owe at least that explination. Again, not to convince, or beat a dead horse here, but to explain my path of thinking; I would never believe something that is not in scripture.
In Gen. 1:26-27 what distingushes us from all other things? I think consciousness is the answer. Consciousness is the governor of human behavior, and if you read Col. 3:11 where it states that Christ is " All and in All", that verse was one of the paths to my thinking on this. How can Christ be All and " In" all? Does that mean everyone has the Holy Spirit of God? Well no, can't mean that. But, everyone has a consciousness, and it is there that Christ is all and " In All." We all have a consciousness.
In 1Corinth. 15:49 I believe the " Image of the earthy" is consciousness. In Gen. 5:3 Adams son was in his " Image and Likeness", which I view as him being conscious as Adam was.
Consciousness is awareness, thoughts and feelings; degree of reflection,activity; internal knowledge; " Waking Life." One can say all of these things actually describe Jesus relation to the Father, since Jesus is the Image of God. I think we can rightly say he is the exact representation of God, or he is the collective thought of God; he is the awareness of God, the knowledge of God , the intrests of God, the concerns of God are expressed in him; I think we can then surely say that Jesus is the consciousness of God.
Consciousness is " Waking awareness", in John 11:25 Jesus said " I am the ressurection", or he is the waking awareness! When a human mind is taken from the path of deception and placed on the path of the truth, that " New Consciousness" is a ressurection of sorts, or waking awareness; something that is now in your mind that was not there before, and you didnot put it there yourself.
Consciousness is wisdom - knowing how it is or what it is like.
In Romans 8:29, we are predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son. You can almost put " Consciousness" everywhere image appears and not retard the integrity of the meaning of scripture. In some cases receive more meaning. Conformed to the Consciousness of his Son, or receive the " Mind of Christ." How can we have Christ mind? Well we can be placed on the actual path of his consciousness, or awareness; his waking awareness; his ressurection- it all still fits together. And if you study this, you will see it keeps fitting together in a definte path of scripture.
In Heb. 1:3 , Jesus is " The express Image of God", the radiance of his glory, the " Exact representation of his nature", all this points to him having the consciousness of his Father. The exactness is moreso in consciousness, or the concerns and intrests of God; the activity of God; the thoughts and feelings of God; the internal knowledge of God; the collective thought of God, OR, the consciousness of God.
Jesus " Ressembles God"; how do we resemble God? Well we think; we are conscious; we are " Like him."
In 1Corinth. 8:7 it mentions a conscious being weak is defiled. What do demons go after in order to defile a human.? They target the conscious, they look to distort the image, therefore perverting the path the person may be on toward truth.
Anyhow I just wanted to give the respect of some scriptures as to why I believe this; I would never believe something that is not biblical. I apoligise, I should have shown some scriptures in my first thread and explained and shared why. So I just thought I would give that respect and mu mind can at least be at rest and peace, not wanting to share things without biblical explination.
Anyhow, there are more scriptures, but I wanted to at least leave these few.
Peace.
-
Hi Mickiel,
Reading your several recent letters makes me curious to get to know more about you. If you would like we can share additional detail in P M's private messages, to avoid exposing ourselves to any spam from casual readers.
I am particularly interested in your history with WCG and how you came to join yourself to them and why you left after so many years. I had similar experiences and family difficulties etc. from 1969 to 1999.
Please contact me privately in "my messages" section if interested.
Sincerely, Indianabob
Greetings Bob,
I don't mind sharing that publically; Years ago I knew and understood that my mind was not on the same track of common religious thought, and that was what attracted me to worldwide. It was different to me and I actually could agree with some things. Knowledge must appeal to our personage , where God is concerned; and Worldwide just appealed to me personally. What they were teaching. After they broke up and seperated on the Sabbath teaching, I just kind of floated away from them, never to return. I kind of viewed the confusion, I asked God to never allow me to depend on the teaching of men again, and asked him to teach me directly.
A bold request, but I think God answered that intense prayer, and I have walked alone ever since. It was the last bit of " Fellowship" that I had. I have visted other sites that I have been attracted to, but things never seem to unify for me and perminent fellowship. Some of my views are quite differing, but I have learned to respect where I vist. I think God is distributing his truth in more than one place, here a little, there a little, and that is to be respected when visiting. In my early years of this path I was " Headhunting", enraged with things I was seeing and was determined to right the wrong everywhere I went. I made many errors in fellowshipping in those years that I regret. But I think God filtered me through Worldwide for his own reasons, perhaps like some here; there was something to gain. And then he wanted me to move on.
Sometimes we just have to eat the crumbs where God gives them, but the ultimate experience in learning, is to learn from the Spirit directly. Why God filtered me through Worldwide, I basically don't know. Why he has not given me his Spirit perminently, again, I basically don't know. But I understand that I cannot understand his truth on my own, so I know he wants me to know certain things, and I am just grateful for that.
Peace.
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I was watching another Ray vedio and was surprised to hear him say some here came from Worldwide, I was in there myself for 10 years. After I left I knew I probally would never try another church again. I was thinking about the thread I asked to be closed here and I never really got into explaining the path that led me to thinking about Gods Image being consciousness, and the scriptures involved in that path of thinking. I think I owe at least that explination. Again, not to convince, or beat a dead horse here, but to explain my path of thinking; I would never believe something that is not in scripture.
In Gen. 1:26-27 what distingushes us from all other things? I think consciousness is the answer. Consciousness is the governor of human behavior, and if you read Col. 3:11 where it states that Christ is " All and in All", that verse was one of the paths to my thinking on this. How can Christ be All and " In" all? Does that mean everyone has the Holy Spirit of God? Well no, can't mean that. But, everyone has a consciousness, and it is there that Christ is all and " In All." We all have a consciousness.
In 1Corinth. 15:49 I believe the " Image of the earthy" is consciousness. In Gen. 5:3 Adams son was in his " Image and Likeness", which I view as him being conscious as Adam was.
Consciousness is awareness, thoughts and feelings; degree of reflection,activity; internal knowledge; " Waking Life." One can say all of these things actually describe Jesus relation to the Father, since Jesus is the Image of God. I think we can rightly say he is the exact representation of God, or he is the collective thought of God; he is the awareness of God, the knowledge of God , the intrests of God, the concerns of God are expressed in him; I think we can then surely say that Jesus is the consciousness of God.
Consciousness is " Waking awareness", in John 11:25 Jesus said " I am the ressurection", or he is the waking awareness! When a human mind is taken from the path of deception and placed on the path of the truth, that " New Consciousness" is a ressurection of sorts, or waking awareness; something that is now in your mind that was not there before, and you didnot put it there yourself.
Consciousness is wisdom - knowing how it is or what it is like.
In Romans 8:29, we are predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son. You can almost put " Consciousness" everywhere image appears and not retard the integrity of the meaning of scripture. In some cases receive more meaning. Conformed to the Consciousness of his Son, or receive the " Mind of Christ." How can we have Christ mind? Well we can be placed on the actual path of his consciousness, or awareness; his waking awareness; his ressurection- it all still fits together. And if you study this, you will see it keeps fitting together in a definte path of scripture.
In Heb. 1:3 , Jesus is " The express Image of God", the radiance of his glory, the " Exact representation of his nature", all this points to him having the consciousness of his Father. The exactness is moreso in consciousness, or the concerns and intrests of God; the activity of God; the thoughts and feelings of God; the internal knowledge of God; the collective thought of God, OR, the consciousness of God.
Jesus " Ressembles God"; how do we resemble God? Well we think; we are conscious; we are " Like him."
In 1Corinth. 8:7 it mentions a conscious being weak is defiled. What do demons go after in order to defile a human.? They target the conscious, they look to distort the image, therefore perverting the path the person may be on toward truth.
Anyhow I just wanted to give the respect of some scriptures as to why I believe this; I would never believe something that is not biblical. I apoligise, I should have shown some scriptures in my first thread and explained and shared why. So I just thought I would give that respect and mu mind can at least be at rest and peace, not wanting to share things without biblical explination.
Anyhow, there are more scriptures, but I wanted to at least leave these few.
Peace.
Mickiel,
I was in the Worldwide Church of God for 25 years. I guess it shows how spiritually stupid I was to not run away from that madhouse sooner than I did.
I read what you wrote above. In my opinion, it is total heresy. You do what most do. That is, you take a personal opinion and shoehorn it into several scriptures that you think support your opinion. Then you deceive yourself into thinking it is God's truth. Yep, that is what we did in the Worldwide Church of God.
Real scriptural truth is found in two or three scriptural witnesses to a truth. The scriptures are clear and do not have to be forced. Spirit witnesses to spirit and those with God's Spirit clearly see the truth.
Your teaching above does not ring true. After God put me through the evil of the Worlwide Church of God, which was a great blessing from the Great God, after that spiritual burning, I have a profound aversion to any teaching that is not supported by God's two witnesses.
John
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[quote author=John from Kentucky link=topic=14Mickiel,
I was in the Worldwide Church of God for 25 years. I guess it shows how spiritually stupid I was to not run away from that madhouse sooner than I did.
I read what you wrote above. In my opinion, it is total heresy. You do what most do. That is, you take a personal opinion and shoehorn it into several scriptures that you think support your opinion. Then you deceive yourself into thinking it is God's truth. Yep, that is what we did in the Worldwide Church of God.
Real scriptural truth is found in two or three scriptural witnesses to a truth. The scriptures are clear and do not have to be forced. Spirit witnesses to spirit and those with God's Spirit clearly see the truth.
Your teaching above does not ring true. After God put me through the evil of the Worlwide Church of God, which was a great blessing from the Great God, after that spiritual burning, I have a profound aversion to any teaching that is not supported by God's two witnesses.
John
[/quote]
Greetings John,
I understand you. First of all, I am not " Teaching", I am simply sharing my views; this is how the Spirit has impressed me. I view things differently than you. If God decides to drag me through some mud, then I see value in the mud. The experience in Worldwide was not a waste of my time, or God wouldnot have done it to me. Moses was dragged through Egypt for a purpose, then dragged out of it for another purpose. Worldwide, Egypt- there is no difference in my view of things : God could have left me there. But he didnot.
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I understand the urge to brand things heresy and stupid, I have done my share of that in the past; until I understood better that we can only be conscious of those things the Spirit opens to us; and I no longer feel the need to harp on others for what they do not comprehend. I can harp on myself for those things I simply do not yet understand. It is God who works all things in all people, 1Corinth. 12:6, and it states " There are varieties of Effects." The real truth willnot always effect the consciousness of different peoples God is dealing with in the same manner. Oh it will in many areas and subjects, but not all of them.
It is then unfortunate when this occurs; but it occurs and its right here in scripture. One maynot always see things like the others do. So I give a guarded testimony with respects to that, with absolutely no intention of starting a false fire or changing anothers view. We simply only can try the Spirit by the Spirit, or only be conscious of what the Spirit gives you. And it will continue to give more according to Gods will in that for the individual.
What do you do when God shows you something different? You look at his word and ask for understanding of it; that's about it in a nutshell. If he wants it in your consciousness, it willnot be removed, only continually confirmed, until you catch up to it. And begin to believe it. There will be no need to bang it on the head of others, or to belittle others for not seeing it; only to be thankful that he revealed it to you.
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Mickiel,
I believe I know what you are trying to communicate, but I also have something for you to consider. Here is my perspective on your reasoning "Paths to the truth."
"As long as you believe in God and try to be a good person, your religion doesn't matter." "There are many paths up the same mountain, but they all lead to the peak."
How many times have you heard people speak this way? This is the prevailing wisdom - It's politically correct. It's tolerant. It's reasonable. But.... it's wrong! Jesus had the nerve to say, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." Jesus is the path... the only path.... to truth. Jesus is Truth. Not just some truth but the entire truth. He is God's definitive and perfect Word expressing who God is, what He is like, who we are, and what we need to do to be saved from our misery and futility.
Jesus is also the Word of God. We can't go outside of the bible (the original manuscripts) to find truth. We communicate to God through prayer and He reciprocates by communicating with us through His Word... only through His Word... and it has been that way ever since the bible has been completed. There are no physical manifestations or audible communication to any human in this dispensation... period! Truth is revealed to us through His Word and by the Spirit of God.
If God only communicates with us through His Word, then where do we get the understanding of consciousness? As far as I can tell, that word in not in the bible. If I am wrong, I stand corrected. At birth, humans are given a "conscience", but that is a different word and it is to infer we know right from wrong - good and evil. God has given us many examples in scripture to tell us who and what we are, how our minds work, and how our knowledge and wisdom "evolve". So why then digress and use words that He doesn't use? It can only lead us to confusion!
For example: When you first used the word consciousness in another thread, here is how it affected me and how that word's connotation influenced my thinking....
My first thought was of the singing group "The Beatles" when I was hopping around to their music in the 60's & 70's. They went through a period of "seeking consciousness" by way of their guru (and many, many others during that time) the great Maharishi. Along with drugs they wanted to expand their consciousness or cosmic conscience through TM (transcendental meditation) and changing their attitudes of spirituality. They were seeking truth and wisdom from a different source other than the true Source... Jesus Christ!
To this day that is how that word consciousness has been ingrained in my mind. The more modern version is that of the New Agers seeking wisdom and truth. I am not saying, Mickiel, that what I have just described is how you perceive the word, but as to how I perceive the word and I can imagine many others also.
doug
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Mickiel,
I believe I know what you are trying to communicate, but I also have something for you to consider. Here is my perspective on your reasoning "Paths to the truth."
"As long as you believe in God and try to be a good person, your religion doesn't matter." "There are many paths up the same mountain, but they all lead to the peak."
How many times have you heard people speak this way? This is the prevailing wisdom - It's politically correct. It's tolerant. It's reasonable. But.... it's wrong! Jesus had the nerve to say, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." Jesus is the path... the only path.... to truth. Jesus is Truth. Not just some truth but the entire truth. He is God's definitive and perfect Word expressing who God is, what He is like, who we are, and what we need to do to be saved from our misery and futility.
Jesus is also the Word of God. We can't go outside of the bible (the original manuscripts) to find truth. We communicate to God through prayer and He reciprocates by communicating with us through His Word... only through His Word... and it has been that way ever since the bible has been completed. There are no physical manifestations or audible communication to any human in this dispensation... period! Truth is revealed to us through His Word and by the Spirit of God.
If God only communicates with us through His Word, then where do we get the understanding of consciousness? As far as I can tell, that word in not in the bible. If I am wrong, I stand corrected. At birth, humans are given a "conscience", but that is a different word and it is to infer we know right from wrong - good and evil. God has given us many examples in scripture to tell us who and what we are, how our minds work, and how our knowledge and wisdom "evolve". So why then digress and use words that He doesn't use? It can only lead us to confusion!
For example: When you first used the word consciousness in another thread, here is how it affected me and how that word's connotation influenced my thinking....
My first thought was of the singing group "The Beatles" when I was hopping around to their music in the 60's & 70's. They went through a period of "seeking consciousness" by way of their guru (and many, many others during that time) the great Maharishi. Along with drugs they wanted to expand their consciousness or cosmic conscience through TM (transcendental meditation) and changing their attitudes of spirituality. They were seeking truth and wisdom from a different source other than the true Source... Jesus Christ!
To this day that is how that word consciousness has been ingrained in my mind. The more modern version is that of the New Agers seeking wisdom and truth. I am not saying, Mickiel, that what I have just described is how you perceive the word, but as to how I perceive the word and I can imagine many others also.
doug
Greetings Doug,
I certainly understand you. In fact, there are no words of ancient greek that even corresponds to consciousness ; this is really a subject that needs to be spiritually discerned. And those are the most difficult to "begin" to understand. In John 10:16 Jesus said that he has " Other sheep which are not of " this fold", and he has to "Bring them (in) also." And then there shall be one flock, because there exist more than just one group. Oh yes, Jesus is the only way, but there are more than just one path to this truth. Much more than just the same experiences, or all of our experiences in this drawing would be exactly alike; and I don't think thats true. Pauls path was different, way differing than other apostles, and Johns path was different, ( John the Baptist). Judas had a different path, a way differing experience in his dealings with Jesus, a path I do not believe he could have changed if he wanted to.
Consciousness being the image of God has to be spiritually discerned, because scripture just does not come right out and state it. In Rev. 12:9 it mentions that anyone who worships the beast and his " Image", receives a mark on their " Forehead", in my view, this means consciousness; their consciousness is marked or seared. The demons have taken residence in their consciousness. This is exactly how people are deceived, it happens always in their consciousness. In Rev. 19:20 people are again deceived, the false prophet performs signs that " caused" the worship of his " Image"- again this means consciousness , even the beasts image is consciousness.
In 2Corinth. 4:4 " In whose case the god of this world has blinded " The mind" ( consciousness) of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God,( or the consciousness of God). I believe that Christ is the mind of God as it is being expressed to humans. Jesus is the verbal consciousness of God, he speaks for him. Explains him.
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I was watching another Ray vedio and was surprised to hear him say some here came from Worldwide, I was in there myself for 10 years. After I left I knew I probally would never try another church again. I was thinking about the thread I asked to be closed here and I never really got into explaining the path that led me to thinking about Gods Image being consciousness, and the scriptures involved in that path of thinking. I think I owe at least that explination. Again, not to convince, or beat a dead horse here, but to explain my path of thinking; I would never believe something that is not in scripture.
In Gen. 1:26-27 what distingushes us from all other things? I think consciousness is the answer. Consciousness is the governor of human behavior, and if you read Col. 3:11 where it states that Christ is " All and in All", that verse was one of the paths to my thinking on this. How can Christ be All and " In" all? Does that mean everyone has the Holy Spirit of God? Well no, can't mean that. But, everyone has a consciousness, and it is there that Christ is all and " In All." We all have a consciousness.
In 1Corinth. 15:49 I believe the " Image of the earthy" is consciousness. In Gen. 5:3 Adams son was in his " Image and Likeness", which I view as him being conscious as Adam was.
Consciousness is awareness, thoughts and feelings; degree of reflection,activity; internal knowledge; " Waking Life." One can say all of these things actually describe Jesus relation to the Father, since Jesus is the Image of God. I think we can rightly say he is the exact representation of God, or he is the collective thought of God; he is the awareness of God, the knowledge of God , the intrests of God, the concerns of God are expressed in him; I think we can then surely say that Jesus is the consciousness of God.
Consciousness is " Waking awareness", in John 11:25 Jesus said " I am the ressurection", or he is the waking awareness! When a human mind is taken from the path of deception and placed on the path of the truth, that " New Consciousness" is a ressurection of sorts, or waking awareness; something that is now in your mind that was not there before, and you didnot put it there yourself.
Consciousness is wisdom - knowing how it is or what it is like.
In Romans 8:29, we are predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son. You can almost put " Consciousness" everywhere image appears and not retard the integrity of the meaning of scripture. In some cases receive more meaning. Conformed to the Consciousness of his Son, or receive the " Mind of Christ." How can we have Christ mind? Well we can be placed on the actual path of his consciousness, or awareness; his waking awareness; his ressurection- it all still fits together. And if you study this, you will see it keeps fitting together in a definte path of scripture.
In Heb. 1:3 , Jesus is " The express Image of God", the radiance of his glory, the " Exact representation of his nature", all this points to him having the consciousness of his Father. The exactness is moreso in consciousness, or the concerns and intrests of God; the activity of God; the thoughts and feelings of God; the internal knowledge of God; the collective thought of God, OR, the consciousness of God.
Jesus " Ressembles God"; how do we resemble God? Well we think; we are conscious; we are " Like him."
In 1Corinth. 8:7 it mentions a conscious being weak is defiled. What do demons go after in order to defile a human.? They target the conscious, they look to distort the image, therefore perverting the path the person may be on toward truth.
Anyhow I just wanted to give the respect of some scriptures as to why I believe this; I would never believe something that is not biblical. I apoligise, I should have shown some scriptures in my first thread and explained and shared why. So I just thought I would give that respect and mu mind can at least be at rest and peace, not wanting to share things without biblical explination.
Anyhow, there are more scriptures, but I wanted to at least leave these few.
Peace.
Dear Mikiel,
You're saying, God is Consciousness, without really coming out and saying it.
God is aware, yes.
God enlightens people, yes.
God is the Creator.
Nowhere does it ever say that God is consciousness.
I Googled "God is consciousness." Just for fun! Yes, I know you said, God's image is consciousness, but we've already established the fact that Christ IS God, so that's the same thing as saying God is consciousness. And you'll never guess what I got -- Bill Hicks. The comedian.
Unbelievable.
Well, Bill is dead but he was quoted as saying:
"God is consciousness and we are all God trying to realize our full potential"
(I'd put up a video of Bill, but the poor guy couldn't get through an entire sentence without dropping the F-bomb. Not judging. Better than real ones. That's what I always say.)
We are all God [consciousness] trying to realize our full potential? But Bill is currently not conscious of anything seeing how he's currently DEAD. So, one can assume Bill is NOT God.
And last time I checked, I wasn't worshiping "Consciousness"; I was worshiping the Creator.
Then, you say: How can Christ be All and " In" all? Does that mean everyone has the Holy Spirit of God? Well no, can't mean that. But, everyone has a consciousness, and it is there that Christ is all and " In All." We all have a consciousness.
Christ is all in all?
1 Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Christ], then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [GOD, THE FATHER] that put all things under Him [Christ], that God [THE FATHER] may be all in all.
Then you said: Consciousness is wisdom.
Mikiel, there is no consciousness in "wisdom." God birthed wisdom; however, there is no consciousness in wisdom. What are you talking about? Christ has wisdom and so does God the Father. But Christ came out from the Father AFTER God birthed wisdom.
And if consciousness means wisdom, then everyone with a functioning brain would never be weak. Christ's flesh was as WEAK as any other mortal human being (only insofar as Christ was acquainted with sickness, not that when He was tempted that He sinned--I'm not saying that!).
And it would mean that no one who has Christ living in them (we are the temple of God) would ever be unwise. But you said:
In 1Corinth. 8:7 it mentions a conscious being weak is defiled . What do demons go after in order to defile a human.? They target the conscious, they look to distort the image, therefore perverting the path the person may be on toward truth.
Conscious made weak? By what? By the flesh. If it weren't for these physical bodies with these physical desires and passions, Satan couldn't "dine" on us. If Satan could dine on consciousness without a physical body, then God would have had no reason to first make the physical, and then the spiritual.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Satan also has consciousness and he is most definitely aware of God. You see he spoke with God directly, according to the book of Job. But does Satan also possess wisdom?
I'm sorry, Mikiel--you're not making sense, to me.
1 Cor. 15:56 But that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
If all that we needed in order to know Christ and be like God, was "consciousness" (and consciousness is not material, but immaterial), for what purpose did God make the material universe and humanity with bodies and brains? Why did God feel it was necessary to bring about a physical creation first?
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know[/b] Christ and be like God, was "consciousness" (and consciousness is not material, but immaterial), for what purpose did God make the material universe and humanity with bodies and brains? Why did God feel it was necessary to bring about a physical creation first?
Greetings Gina, well part of what I am saying is that God is consciousness, or its a definte charactheristic of his being. One can say God is love, God is Peace, God is consciousness, and still be correct in those descriptions. Not that God is a big gob of emotional goo called love, or a notion called peace, or some cloud of nebulous pure conscious thought, but these things are " descriptive of his ways and being", and describes what he " does or will do." God will love, he will be at peace and give peace, and he is conscious and thinks and plans what he will do. I mean he is what he is. And he is conscious, and all conscious life comes from him. Consciousness is the Spirit in man, in every human.
All humans are already " like God." All humans are already made in Gods image, this has absolutely nothing to do with the " calling of God", thats totally a different situation. Being " like" God or being made in his image, means to " resemble God." To be in his " likeness." Now, how can a human dare be like God? And I mean all humans in his image. Its certainly NOT characther, its certainly NOT form or shape; its certainly NOT knowledge; well what is it then that we have which resembles God and we can even dare say we have in common with him? CONSCIOUSNESS! All humans are like God in that we are conscious beings.
Resemble- liken to- image- consciousness!
I recall Ray getting into what is the Kingdom of God and using certain parables to explain what the Kingdom " is like." The Kingdom of God is " like this" or its " like that", or its liken to, or RESEMBLES certain definte things. The parables were giving an " image" of Gods kingdom. Things which resemble it, and those who heard the parables wereNOT conscious of what they meant. They have the earthy image of God, consciousness, but they were not spiritually conscious, or blessed with the heavenly image of God.
And this is why many scientist cannot understand that consciousness cannot arrive from mere matter evolving. Its spiritually discerned.
In Rom. 8:29, being predestined to become conformed to the " Image of his Son", doesNOT mean Jesus physical image while he was on earth, as if every called out human are destined to become Christ twin brother or sister. It does not mean a picture of Christ, or to be in a body like Jesus had, it means consciousness; to have the consciousness that Christ has; his mind, his way of thinking; to be aware of what he is aware of, and be aware that your aware! It is degree of reflection; the collective thoughts , intrests, and concerns of God. The waking life and knowledge of Christ- the ressurection.
God made the physical first, the material universe first, so Christ could become a part of that ( which further makes him all things) and usher us all into a new birth entirely; this is WHY Adam was allowed to be defeated by sin, to create the " Need for Christ to come." Its the process God designed in definte stages. First the physical, or the womb ( the earth). The earth is really a giant incubator, or womb in which we are being created. To ask why the physical creation is like asking why the womb? Why not just bypass the womb and bring all things into pure spiritual living from the getgo? Well thats just how God wanted it to occur, and I wish I knew perfectly why, but I just don't.
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I can see you've never read much or anything on B-T.
How can we already be in the image of God when you just told us
"The earth is really a giant incubator, or womb in which we are being created."
Four or five paragraphs above that you said:
"All humans are already " like God." All humans are already made in Gods image,"
That makes no sense. God is not the author of confusion.
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For the record, God does not "create" humanity. He "makes" humanity. God already created everything, and then he took those things he created and "formed" mankind from the dust of the ground -- something that was already there. But not yet in His image.
You know enough to be dangerous--to yourself mostly; I hope and pray you're not a danger to anyone else.
I also noticed that your command of the English language has greatly improved over the last few posts, but you still make no sense.
You said: Now, how can a human dare be like God? And I mean all humans in his image. Its certainly NOT characther, its certainly NOT form or shape; its certainly NOT knowledge;well what is it then that we have which resembles God and we can even dare say we have in common with him? CONSCIOUSNESS! All humans are like God in that we are conscious beings
This is the definition of conscious:
con·scious/ˈkänCHəs/
Adjective:
Aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.
Having knowledge of something; aware.
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You know enough to be dangerous--to yourself mostly; I hope and pray you're not a danger to anyone else.
I also noticed that your command of the English language has greatly improved over the last few posts, but you still make no sense.
Well I understand you and I hold no need to insult you because I view things differently than you do. Nor do I need to insinuate negative things about you, because I believe God will inform both you and me of his will, he desires that for all. I understand that I am not anointed with Gods Spirit and can be wrong about anything; I have no pride in a calling that I don't have. No pride in my knowledge, because it dies daily in many areas. I understand that I write poorly at times; I am happy spell check is here, it helps me a great deal; I am a weak speller. I apoligise for that.
I view things differently on God creating, I believe his physical creation is finished, but not his creation of man's consciousness, its ongoing. His creation of righteous characther is ongoing, his creation of the future is ongoing. His creation of the church is ongoing. In 1Pet. 2:4-5 living stones being built up is mentioned, which I view as still being created, still being renewed, still being made.
Anyhow, peace to you.
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I wasn't insulting your use of English at all.
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Hi mickiel,
One of the problems I see here is that we understand words in a certain way, now you come in and seem to be introducing a new way to understand this word 'consciousness.' You may have this all figure out in a way that suits you very well, but it's not what we have come to understand in the Scripture, so we are rejecting it.
Now what is the point in your continuing to bring your idea of this consciousness over and over again? Are you trying to teach us that this is truth? It doesn't matter how many times you say you are not doing something, if you continue in behavior that says you are. We should just move on from this discussion into things that we might agree on.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I wasn't insulting your use of English at all.
Well thats a good thing to say, thank you. I kind of think Col.3:10-11 expresses what I mean by God still creating quite well;"Putting on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge" according to the image of the one who created him. Renewed, or renovated- still being inside the process of creation, although already created. God took his time with the creation of primordal man, I think hes still taking his time in our creation.
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Hi mickiel,
One of the problems I see here is that we understand words in a certain way, now you come in and seem to be introducing a new way to understand this word 'consciousness.' You may have this all figure out in a way that suits you very well, but it's not what we have come to understand in the Scripture, so we are rejecting it.
Now what is the point in your continuing to bring your idea of this consciousness over and over again? Are you trying to teach us that this is truth? It doesn't matter how many times you say you are not doing something, if you continue in behavior that says you are. We should just move on from this discussion into things that we might agree on.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Well thats fine by me, I understand. I'll keep my views on consciousness to myself, I am sure theres plenty I agree on here.
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Mikiel, I agree with Kat. Time to stop.
Well thats a good thing to say, thank you. I kind of think Col.3:10-11 expresses what I mean by God still creating quite well;"Putting on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge" ...
Incorrect. 1 Cor. 13:8 Love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it [knowledge] shall vanish away.
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Mikiel, I agree with Kat. Time to stop.
As I have stated, thats fine by me.
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Mikiel, I agree with Kat. Time to stop.
Well thats a good thing to say, thank you. I kind of think Col.3:10-11 expresses what I mean by God still creating quite well;"Putting on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge" ...
Incorrect. 1 Cor. 13:8 Love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it [knowledge] shall vanish away.
I don't understand, just what are you saying is incorrect? Whats incorrect about knowledge being renewed?
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Mikiel, Time to stop. (Job 38:11)
You said previously that you only learn the truth directly from God, not from man, so why are you asking me? Listen, if you don't believe what Paul (a man, I might add) was inspired by God to write ("knowledge shall vanish away"), then you're not going to believe me if I tell you.
Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of
the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.
Knowledge will increase, it will not be "renewed," as you said. And then it will vanish away.
We're not being brought to a knowledge (consciousness) of the "consciousness" but to a knowledge of the Truth.
I'm finished here. I don't want to continue this discussion. I hope that the mods will not allow this discussion to continue.
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Mikiel, Time to stop. (Job 38:11)
You said previously that you only learn the truth directly from God, not from man, so why are you asking me? Listen, if you don't believe what Paul (a man, I might add) was inspired by God to write ("knowledge shall vanish away"), then you're not going to believe me if I tell you.
Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of
the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.
Knowledge will increase, it will not be "renewed," as you said. And then it will vanish away.
We're not being brought to a knowledge (consciousness) of the "consciousness" but to a knowledge of the Truth.
I'm finished here. I don't want to continue this discussion. I hope that the mods will not allow this discussion to continue.
My goodness, I wonder where the chip on your shoulder comes from? I have heard of people being disagreable, but creating the disagreement is new on me. Looking for disagreement, seems like a hunger to contend, not to correct.
I wonder where your hunger to contend comes from?
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Sticks and stones.
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Sticks and stones.
I already know where it comes from.
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Gina and mickiel, this is just between you two, so take it to pm's.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Anyhow back to my path to the truth. I recall no longer being able to stomach the eternal hell punishing doctrine, and I was growing weary of the limited salvation doctrines. I knew something different was happening to my belief system. And it scared me. But I could no longer listen to these baptist sermons and swallow their teachings, so I left the baptist church in search of something that I could relate to in my new thinking. Even in my years in the baptist church, I was a rebel of sorts anyway. Always questioning their views.
I went to the 7th day Adventist, then on to Jehovahs Witnesses for a brief stint; then I stumbled upon the Worldwide Church of God in Alabama one year. I kind of liked it and joined. I was very attracted to the notion of being individually called and chosen by God, that really turned me on. You know, to be a King and Priest of God was a thrill beyond my wildest imagination and unknown potential. Unlike some here, my experience with Worldwide was a mostly positive one, they had some truth in my view. And I had very good fellowship while there. They believe themselves to be the annointed called of God; as many churchs do. And I understand that thrill.
But eventually my thrist was no longer satisfied by Worldwide, I began to disagree with many of their teachings, as the Salvation of all loomed more large in my belief. I was consouled many times by their ministers and even they could sense I was on my way out. Just not of their fold any longer. Perhaps different from some here, I do not view my time there as a waste, nor am I angry or bitter for having to go through those years, mainly because I miss the fellowship; being with people, as opposed to being alone. Oh I had my years of raging on and on about the deception in religion, but I eventually pointed that rage at myself, for not living as best I can to please God's view of how one should live.
Oh I sliced up many, many people on the internet in my headhunting years, I attacked Christianity everyday and opposed all religions on this earth. My rage was never quenched, it was only directed into other areas, as I learned to be honest about religions and my belief , I also had to be honest about myself, realizing the fact that I was not chosen by God, I was just so attracted to the thought of it. I had to understand that God was dealing with my mind from time to time, opening it to things, and thats what made me desire to blend in with others who I thought he was doing the same to. And Worldwide was my closest experience with what I thought was that blend. I was wrong about that. But I enjoyed my time there; I certainly did; leaving was heartbreaking for me, not because of doctrines and knowledge, because of people! I miss the people. The friends I made and enjoyed. The basketball I played, the women I dated; and so on. The senior citizen members I grew close to and served. Yeah, those were good times.
But I don't look back on the teachings there, I basically have just about forgotten about most of them. The journey to truth has a pace of its own, and I have learned more just looking into Gods word, and the occassional inspiration from his Spirit on my own, than I have with any group. I will probally never blend in with any group again, my belief is too far moved into left feild, as I have walked alone in left feild for so long. I have posted on forums all over the internet, not being able to contain my views within me, but I have asked God to help me learn to do that. Many times my views have gotten me banned from many sites, and some sites seem to tolerate me pretty well.
My path to the truth has been one riddled with many things, many troubles and pains. Many personal disapointments. But I thank God that I can see and believe in the glory of the Salvation of all, there is no greater truth in my view, no greater gospel.
No greater path.
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If you all don't mind.
Knowledge will increase, it will not be "renewed," as you said. And then it will vanish away.
Knowledge will vanish in such a way as to mean in opposition, distribution or intensity...[G2596].
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.[G2596]
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The knowledge of the Truths of God will increase when God Himself shall cause one to believe,through the Faith of,Jesus the Christ.
For clarifications sake, I believe Paul is speaking of a time when all that are in the Kingdom of God will no longer need in part the knowledge of God because upon the Spiritual conversion of all of his children His perfection will become complete and the Truth of the Spirit will then be known in whole to His people, and no longer just in part.
We shall see our Lord face to face, in all Truths, with one mind, with only the parts of His truth left to vanish,thus leaving the whole Truth, of His parts. Being mature in the Word of God is the putting away of childish things and moving unto the realm of the Truth of the Spirit in the wholeness of Spirit,not just parts, but in the whole of His Truth.
All of our parts in our relationship with God will be... I shall know fully, even as I am fully known... unto His completion,not just in part, but unto His whole fullness of Spirit.
As Ray would say...we must read all of the words...not just parts..
Pun intended... :)
Peace...Mark
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Those are good points Mark, I personally believe knowledge will continue to increase. I can see how some knowledge will vanish away; such as false knowledge concerning spiritual matters; things like how to make an atom bomb, how to fix a computer, maybe how to cook certain foods; such things will no longer have a need to be known, and simply vanish.
The increase in knowledge, I certainly hope means we will one day have answers about the things about God that we question now and just don't know. Things about Jesus. Things about other creations in heaven. The 24 elders, Angels and things like that. Unanswered questions about biblical history, I don't see God being against giving clarification about that. A history class in heaven about heaven?
With a thing like knowledge ever increasing, there maynot be any boundrys to the learning.
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"With one mind." "Let this mind be in you." I'm seeing it. Thanks, Mark.
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I can see how some knowledge will vanish away; such as false knowledge concerning spiritual matters; things like how to make an atom bomb, how to fix a computer, maybe how to cook certain foods; such things will no longer have a need to be known, and simply vanish.
Hello mickiel.
The only knowledge that are Lord and Savior will have us to know will be the knowledge of Spirit and Truth. Everything that our old man adam stands for will be destroyed so that we can then be renewed into sons and daughters of righteousness. The flesh and all that we have come to know of it will have no worth in His Kingdom. Kind of like the butterfly disregarding the cocoon,its purpose served,if you will.
We must all die in order that we may live.The ultimate destiny of man is to put on the image of our creator in life and godliness.The old man must die in order that the new man in Christ may live.
Spiritual knowledge will be the only knowledge to life because the knowledge of flesh profits nothing.The deeds of the flesh are corrupt and have no life in us after our resurrection and Spiritual conversion. What will be renewed is renewed in knowledge after the image of him, that created him...
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Peace...Mark
"With one mind." "Let this mind be in you." I'm seeing it. Thanks, Mark.
You are welcome Gina...
Mark
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I kind of like Col. 3:10, putting on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the one who created him. I willnot go into how I like putting consciousness where image is in my personal study, but I will say that knowledge being renewed does imply that we will go over some things that will already have been past knowledge or former understandings, which will then be restored to a state of soundness and perfection.
Renewed can certainly connotate things already in place, or a former state of understanding that is revived, resumed, and now we will " Go over it again"- but this time it will be fresh Holy Spirit teaching.
In vs. 11 this " Renewal" is going to be based on Christ being All and In All". Interesting, being taught new knowledge and having old knowledge corrected and perfected- a renewal that has no distinction ( no limits in superiority is what I think that means, and the implications of that are mind boggling), I think it very possible that Christ himself will once again teach us in the Kingdom. Oh how tempted I am to go over some things on consciousness there, but I resist.
Spiritual knowledge willnot be separated or segregated. I even believe that certain people God will choose may preempt this kind of knowledge renewal before we enter into his Kingdom. But that's another differing thing.
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We are in need of an emoticon shooting himself in the head to illustrate my thoughts about this thread.
I miss Ray's clarity of scriptural expression. I knew the wolves would appear after his death, but I didn't think this soon.
Behold the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD. Amos 8:11
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::)
We are in need of an emoticon shooting himself in the head to illustrate my thoughts about this thread.
I miss Ray's clarity of scriptural expression. I knew the wolves would appear after his death, but I didn't think this soon.
Behold the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD. Amos 8:11
Thanks JFK. My thoughts exactly...it seems everyone wants to teach or has extra god given insights all of sudden....too soon.
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::)
We are in need of an emoticon shooting himself in the head to illustrate my thoughts about this thread.
I miss Ray's clarity of scriptural expression. I knew the wolves would appear after his death, but I didn't think this soon.
Behold the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD. Amos 8:11
I am saddened by the death of Ray, he seemed to have been a great teacher, his mind blessed with marvelous truth. It is strange to me that my path and search for truth has led me here this last week , even though some seem unwilling to hang the welcome sign. I am also saddened by being referred to as a wolf; but I understand that. But in my heart I am encouraged by the truth that although certain people of God may not welcome you or want you around , that God has shown me that he will welcome us wolves into his Kingdom. And I like that about God. Although I do not know him, God seems to be a welcoming Spirit to those who have messed up minds and have not been blessed to blend in with his people. Its the only chance that I have. Yet if Christ is your only chance, I think even the wolves will be alright.
The path to the truth is often frustrating, filled with sad surprises. I recall rejecting the free will doctrine some 20 years ago, and the Church's I was involved in mistreated me because of that, they called me a wolf as well. I soon after rejected the trinity doctrine , and I began to think myself crazy. And perhaps I am. But no matter to me, I will stay on this path no matter how many things I must reject, or how many people reject me.
Peace.
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mickiel,
Its not that we don't want to welcome you its just that we are not here to teach...but rather to help understand what has already been taught by Ray. We all have different views on certain things and its okay to discuss it a bit with openness but any NEW TRUTHS you bring to us are going to get negative feedback...Especially so soon. Hope you understand how we are and you are more than welcome to continue to ask questions. And if you have only been here for a week you got lots of reading to do. I've been around for a couple years and still feel I need to re-read 10 times as much. :)
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mickiel,
Its not that we don't want to welcome you its just that we are not here to teach...but rather to help understand what has already been taught by Ray. We all have different views on certain things and its okay to discuss it a bit with openness but any NEW TRUTHS you bring to us are going to get negative feedback...Especially so soon. Hope you understand how we are and you are more than welcome to continue to ask questions. And if you have only been here for a week you got lots of reading to do. I've been around for a couple years and still feel I need to re-read 10 times as much. :)
Well I do understand, but I am not here to teach, I came only to fellowship and share. Theres a definte difference between sharing and teaching. I cannot share with my family, or my friends; I cannot talk about these things in my AA meetings, I cannot discuss these things with my fellow employees; there are few places to open up and share and discuss these things. Its strange, the almost paranoia I see here in some concerning this aversion to thinking others are trying to teach them; how could I, who has not been chosen , do not have Gods Spirit, and do not even know God, teach an individual who has Gods Spirit and has been called? Thats the biggest contridiction I have ever been accused of. Good greif, sharing is sharing, its not teaching; I admit my sharing may be strong minded, but I am the way I am, and I am no teacher of God, and have never claimed to be. I love the truth, and I don't consider what I understand to be some " new Truth", its simply what has been on my mind of late. Just things on my mind.
This paranoia with thinking that someone is trying to teach others, is quite strange to me. But I am trying to understand it. Trying to be sensitive to it. I mean if your just talking to someone, they they jump back and claim your trying to teach them; goodness, how do you then speak with them? How can you discuss the things of God with them?
But I take the blame for this, I am not accustomed to speaking with a people of God, they don't seem to live anywhere near me. And regretably Ray has passed and I seem to have visited right after that. I understand perhaps others have come here trying to teach, but I have done no such thing; I conversate the way I conversate; write the way I write. Think the way I think.
But I can understand some of this; I imagine being a people of God, some just naturally suspect everyone but themselves of being some kind of heretic. You just assume everyone is deceived, and thats scripture anyhow. But God knows I mean this place no harm, and I know he knows that; I come only for fellowship, but even that cannot be forced; I will leave in a day or two, you have my word on that. I want to finish looking at all the material, which I think is well done. A good work.
I apoligise for any inconvience my pressence has caused.
I come in Peace, and will leave in Peace.
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Just trying to inform you how this place works my friend....Its like you walked in, put your elbows on the table, chewed with your mouth full and said "what's the problem"? We welcome you and your thoughts but remember the thoughts you share will be met with scripture and teachings of Ray. Ray has just passed and we all might be a little too harsh lately so sorry if we seem to come out like that. We are good people, really ;D.
Dan
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Mickiel I am having a hard time trying to understand where you are coming from. The rules of the forum are pretty clear, I think. We ask that the members for the most part center their posts on the scriptural teaching of Ray Smith. Some leeway is given for other discussion but when it turns to debate we ask that it stop. We don't ask that you believe what Ray teaches, we don't tell you not to study other things, other teachers, or your own thoughts, we just ask that when you post here you comment or talk about Ray's teachings.
You have not done this (mostly). When members call you out you post with a whoa is me attitude; how you don't fit in, etc. Well that seems to be a personal problem to me. You can easily fit in here and you can have a fruitful time doing it, you can also hold your own opinions on things not covered by Ray's teaching, you can make friend and converse via PM's of other thoughts and teaching if you so desire.
Try and understand my example...Let's say this forum is the Ford car forum; in the rules that you agree on when joining it says please limit discussions to Ford automobiles only. O.K you agree and join and start posting about Toyota's or Dodges and also on alternative transportation. When you do this the members start losing patience with you and become less than friendly. After this happens you say you just don't understand why that is, that you don't seem to fit in anywhere. Why is that? I don't enjoy rules either for the most part, but as humans we have them in society in order to function and not have total chaos.
I hope you stay as I hope everyone who does not agree with Ray or believes in other things stay. As you said God will be all in all with everyone. I'll bet if you read what Ray teaches you will find that you will have enough that you agree with that you can become a helpful forum member.
Craig
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Mickiel I am having a hard time trying to understand where you are coming from. The rules of the forum are pretty clear, I think. We ask that the members for the most part center their posts on the scriptural teaching of Ray Smith. Some leeway is given for other discussion but when it turns to debate we ask that it stop. We don't ask that you believe what Ray teaches, we don't tell you not to study other things, other teachers, or your own thoughts, we just ask that when you post here you comment or talk about Ray's teachings.
You have not done this (mostly). When members call you out you post with a whoa is me attitude; how you don't fit in, etc. Well that seems to be a personal problem to me. You can easily fit in here and you can have a fruitful time doing it, you can also hold your own opinions on things not covered by Ray's teaching, you can make friend and converse via PM's of other thoughts and teaching if you so desire.
Try and understand my example...Let's say this forum is the Ford car forum; in the rules that you agree on when joining it says please limit discussions to Ford automobiles only. O.K you agree and join and start posting about Toyota's or Dodges and also on alternative transportation. When you do this the members start losing patience with you and become less than friendly. After this happens you say you just don't understand why that is, that you don't seem to fit in anywhere. Why is that? I don't enjoy rules either for the most part, but as humans we have them in society in order to function and not have total chaos.
I hope you stay as I hope everyone who does not agree with Ray or believes in other things stay. As you said God will be all in all with everyone. I'll bet if you read what Ray teaches you will find that you will have enough that you agree with that you can become a helpful forum member.
Craig
Greetings Craig,
And thank you for your imput. I can understand your analogy and I have tried to respect that here. I don't think its important that I be understood in my views here, if a person understands something, and it be real truth, they willnot hold a monopoly on it, the Spirit will reveal it to everyone its dealing with in time. And God will correct me where I am wrong, he always has; and I certainly have been wrong about things before. And I actually agree with Ray so far, in about 95% of the things I have read. I understand more clearly each day how this place works, and just as I think its not so important that I be understood, I quess I feel that way about any one man being understood.
I have never known a Prophet type individual or a great teacher , so I try to understand that as I have talked to a few here. I don't know what that is like. The bond it creates. The reaction it causes. Its kind of strange to me; I vist a house of God, or a place of God; I am called a wolf and dangerous, I am told to only discuss the things one man has taught, and treated cordial by a few. I quess it is a personal problem of mine Craig, I never thought the houses of God would be like that. Its just about been the same kind of thing at the other house of God I have visted; so yes, the problem is mine, its me. I have trouble fitting in with those kind of things. The limitations; the paranoia; the personal insults; the sectioned off attitude, and this strange aversion to thinking others are trying to teach you.
It certainly is a personal problem of mine, because I already know that I cannot, do not even want to, try and fit in with such things. And that is heartbreaking to me, because God may be calling me, but it seems he wants me to continue walking alone and not group off into a fold. And I don't like that.
But thats alright, to each their path. I am almost finished with my study, and I will obey the rules here and leave in Peace. I can even study it offline. I don't think I am meant to interact with Gods people, and that frustrates me without end.
Anyhow, Peace to each of you on your journey.
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Hi mickiel,
I'm sorry that you can not understand or accept the reason for our not allowing other teachings here. We all have a vase array of ideas and if we all wanted to share these thing it would cause much confusion and would naturally lead to debating. You can see that very thing in all the other Christian forums on the internet and we don't want that here. Ray provided a huge amount of topics and most are not simple to understand, so we can come here and discuss them further.
It is understandable the excitement and joy that people feel when finding a group of people that are like minded. We are joyful to have new comers as well and that's why we give them some leeway so that they have time to settle in. But we will still correct obvious error even in new comers, most of us try to be gentle :)
Your opening comment was that you were surprised that there were some here from Worldwide. Ray was from Worldwide, he even went through Ambassador College. I was in Worldwide for 15 yrs., maybe it's a common factor, having that background that we relate to that brings us together.
We all were taught many things from the churches we attended, manmade doctrines, nothing spiritual about it. Now I feel the way that Worldwide was always in the OT and had all those special services teaching the festivals of the Israelites, it did give me a certain knowledge of those physical things that is a helpful backdrop to have.
But we are now moving on from the physical into the spiritual and sometimes some of that church teaching is so embedded in our thinking that it comes out here. So we need to be on guard against any false ideas that we, maybe unknowing hold on to and we try to help one another to recognize these unscriptural ideas if they are posted as well. So if you share remember that the Scriptures is our base of understanding and unless we can clearly see what you are saying in there, with a 2nd witness, don't expect us to go along with it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Well, were all individuals and certainly no hard feelings. When I came on this forum I was quite humbled with reading all the teachings and I had to have my house built on sand collapse and come to the realization that I didn't know nearly as much as what I thought I did. When I joined the forum I was pretty much as quiet as a church mouse for awhile as I honestly didn't think I had much that was worthy to contribute. I did contribute with some questions that I was struggling with and I was graciously answered by others pointing me to what Ray taught on the subject. Problem is [imo] way too many want to be teachers and they end up teaching error like most of the churches teach. The way to do it [imo] is to pretty much keep your mouth shut and learn. If it be God's will then He will raise you up to teach his people in due time if He wishes it to be so. James instructs us (clv)
Jas 3:1 Not many should become teachers, my brethren, being aware that we shall be getting greater judgment.
I know that Ray took that warning to heart and frankly I don't want to teach unless God himself compels me to do so and if that ever happens he will give me the platform to do so but it won't be on this forum as the rules are clear. God bless you as you seek His will for your life.
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Hi mickiel,
I'm sorry that you can not understand or accept the reason for our not allowing other teachings here. We all have a vase array of ideas and if we all wanted to share these thing it would cause much confusion and would naturally lead to debating. You can see that very thing in all the other Christian forums on the internet and we don't want that here. Ray provided a huge amount of topics and most are not simple to understand, so we can come here and discuss them further.
It is understandable the excitement and joy that people feel when finding a group of people that are like minded. We are joyful to have new comers as well and that's why we give them some leeway so that they have time to settle in. But we will still correct obvious error even in new comers, most of us try to be gentle :)
Your opening comment was that you were surprised that there were some here from Worldwide. Ray was from Worldwide, he even went through Ambassador College. I was in Worldwide for 15 yrs., maybe it's a common factor, having that background that we relate to that brings us together.
We all were taught many things from the churches we attended, manmade doctrines, nothing spiritual about it. Now I feel the way that Worldwide was always in the OT and had all those special services teaching the festivals of the Israelites, it did give me a certain knowledge of those physical things that is a helpful backdrop to have.
But we are now moving on from the physical into the spiritual and sometimes some of that church teaching is so embedded in our thinking that it comes out here. So we need to be on guard against any false ideas that we, maybe unknowing hold on to and we try to help one another to recognize these unscriptural ideas if they are posted as well. So if you share remember that the Scriptures is our base of understanding and unless we can clearly see what you are saying in there, with a 2nd witness, don't expect us to go along with it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Greetings Kat,
I think I understand the reasons other teachings are not allowed, a purification of sorts, I see no problem with the purge. I am sure its benefical. I have grown tired of debating myself, but my debates have been mostly with those not called, Atheist and Christians- being out in the world and worldy websites. I too am finished with Worldwide, it was simply no longer for me. The sad thing I must face, is that I don't think any group is for me. And I don't expect others to agree with my views, that is not important to me.; its just strange to me that I can see and agree with so much from those called, but they cannot see many things I see. Thats weird. Really strange.
But it is as it is.
God is shaping things here and with other groups called and chosen; I think it is quite something to be a part of that, I almost envy that; many of you are very fortunate of this. The defense you have developed here will keep out many demonic forces I am sure are gasping to get at you. Tear at you.
It is very interesting to study a house of God, how they think and react.
I would one day love to have Gods Spirit remain in me. I think that would be quite something.
Anyhow Kat thank you for your words and for standing for what you see as truth.
Peace.
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Well, were all individuals and certainly no hard feelings. When I came on this forum I was quite humbled with reading all the teachings and I had to have my house built on sand collapse and come to the realization that I didn't know nearly as much as what I thought I did. When I joined the forum I was pretty much as quiet as a church mouse for awhile as I honestly didn't think I had much that was worthy to contribute. I did contribute with some questions that I was struggling with and I was graciously answered by others pointing me to what Ray taught on the subject. Problem is [imo] way too many want to be teachers and they end up teaching error like most of the churches teach. The way to do it [imo] is to pretty much keep your mouth shut and learn. If it be God's will then He will raise you up to teach his people in due time if He wishes it to be so. James instructs us (clv)
Jas 3:1 Not many should become teachers, my brethren, being aware that we shall be getting greater judgment.
I know that Ray took that warning to heart and frankly I don't want to teach unless God himself compels me to do so and if that ever happens he will give me the platform to do so but it won't be on this forum as the rules are clear. God bless you as you seek His will for your life.
No hard feelings taken. I quess keep your mouth shut and learn, is just not for me.
Peace.
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Hello Mickiel,
There's nothing wrong with having your personal idea's, speculations about Life and considerations about Topics that may not be Scripturally clear. However, We have a specific set of rules that all of us agreed on when joining this Forum and as mentioned By Kat, some Leeway is given, but the Moderators determine how far that leeway is given.
It sounds as if you have a DESIRE to be heard, since you've been rejected quite so often in past experiences, that's understandable, but if that's the case, share your speculations by PM"S or join Facebook so you get share your ideas with a large Universalist Contingency, many from this Site and some of the other Universalist Sites have their adherents discussing things all over Facebook.
As Craig stated about rules, I don't like them either, in general, but the reality is, no one is forced to join the Forum and although no one is flawless, even the Moderators in regards to the application of the Forum rules, these rules seem to work for the greater good of all Forum Members and I've witnessed this since January 2008.
I don't think your necessarily a Wolf, since Wolves are usually much more subtle in hiding their true natures in order to not get detected. Of course, Wolves don't necessarily know they are Wolves, because they bring in deceptive teachings that they themselves have already been deceived by. In my opinion, it seems your looking for validation or to be recognized, instead, put the emphasis on God and consider yourself a piece of Clay in the Potters hand, because none of us are important, We are the refuse of the World, God chose the foolish things of the World, the ignoble things, the weak things in order to put the wise men to shame.
As Craig mentioned, there is much information from this Forum that We can all agree on, you mentioned you agree with 95% of the material from Ray's writings, Well, why not discuss that.
I hope and pray that there are sufficient CAUSES that will lead you to choose and desire to stay here and submit to the Forum Rules. Also, you can never read Ray's articles often enough. Just finished re-reading the Free Will Series and discovered some points of importance I forgot about, will share with you below.
From Part C of the Free Will Series:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).
I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?
If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!
“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].
GOD DID NOT PUT ‘ETERNITY’ IN THE HEART OF MANKIND
“He [God] has made everything fitting [not ‘beautiful’] in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does.” (Ecc. 3:11).
So God has made everything that there is (even though much of it is evil, ugly, and NOT ‘beautiful,’) fitting, proper, appropriate, and suited for its own season, “but” or “however”—here comes a counter proposal, if you will. So God makes EVERYTHING proper and appropriate for His plan, however…. BUT, “…He has put OBSCURITY in their hearts…” so that, or in order that, they CANNOT know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call “life.” What a spiritual revelation!
We have hundreds of Scriptures that verify the fact that God does do according to His plan and intention, always, and everywhere, but there are few verses as this verse which tells us specifically how He had HID [concealed, obscured] this marvelous operation from the eyes of carnal humanity as this verse does.
But Jesus Christ can set us free from the carnal mind, and give us spiritual discernment, and increase our knowledge, and make us wise so that we can understand. Here then is the revelation of a major mystery:
God uses mankind with his “obscured heart” to do all of His intentions without mankind every consciously knowing that God is working His purpose through them—“so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.”
A Biblical Example of Someone with An "OBSCURED" Heart mentioned below.
Isaiah 10:5-17:
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings…
As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [at the hands of the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks.
For he says, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up [God], or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood [but rather something with free will and the power of self-determinism].
Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle it burning like the burning of a fire. And the light of Israel shall be for fire, and His Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day”
That section of Scripture is pretty much self-explanatory. This is a perfect example where God fills in the whys and wherefores of how He operated and worked with the king of Assyria to punish His people, Israel.
But this is also how God works with all kings and presidents, and heads of corporations, and heads of families, and all humanity. God “…works ALL according to the counsel of His Own will.” But just like the King of Assyria, not so is all humanity thinking in THEIR heart. They don’t believe that God uses them on a daily basis just as He did with the King of Assyria. That’s because:
“He [God] has made everything FITTING in its season; However, He has put OBSCURITY in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does from the beginning to the end.” (Ecc. 3:11).
Hopefully, none of Us at this Forum have "An Obscured Heart," like We did in the past by putting the emphasis towards what We did on a particular matter when it's God working ALL according the counsel of His own Will.
Just some thought for your consideration, Samson.
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Mickiel,
I had decided to say no more. But in your reply to Craig you said, "I have never known a Prophet type individual or a great teacher..."
Something is just not ringing true. You said you were in the Worldwide Church of God for 10 years? Herbert W. Armstrong was called God's modern Apostle. His book The Mystery of the Ages was called the greatest spiritual writing since the New Testament was written. His word was law in the church. The WCG was the most uptight, conservative religious entity I have ever known, not that much different from a group of Hasidic Jews. If we missed Sabbath services, we would be reported to the local minister and inquiries would be made about our absence. At our local church, we were watched at church pot lucks to see if we ate a dark spot on a piece of chicken. If we did, this was reported to the minister because we had ate "blood" in violation of the OT teaching.
We thought Herbert and his son Ted were the two witnesses. Their authority was passed on to those who came after them.
The Forum rules consist of just a few sentences that are easily understood. The WCG was a super Nazi type of church that tried to enforce the Law of Moses to the nth degree.
How can you say you are not used to a structured environment if you were a member of the WCG (or any of the offshoots) for 10 years? Something does not compute.
John
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Hello Mickiel,
There's nothing wrong with having your personal idea's, speculations about Life and considerations about Topics that may not be Scripturally clear. However, We have a specific set of rules that all of us agreed on when joining this Forum and as mentioned By Kat, some Leeway is given, but the Moderators determine how far that leeway is given.
It sounds as if you have a DESIRE to be heard, since you've been rejected quite so often in past experiences, that's understandable, but if that's the case, share your speculations by PM"S or join Facebook so you get share your ideas with a large Universalist Contingency, many from this Site and some of the other Universalist Sites have their adherents discussing things all over Facebook.
Just some thought for your consideration, Samson.[/color][/color][/color][/color][/color][/color]
Greetings Samson,
Really I just wanted to see what this group of God thought about my thoughts on consciousness, and that was answered; I found that out, and thats only WHY I threw it out there, not to teach or convince, just to see what others with Spirit influenced minds thought of it. Being alone I just often wonder what others of like mind are thinking on things. I think I just really didnot read your rules like I should have.
I quess I tend to want to discuss certain topics on the edge that are not so controlled topics. But I understand that.
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Mickiel,
I had decided to say no more. But in your reply to Craig you said, "I have never known a Prophet type individual or a great teacher..."
Something is just not ringing true. You said you were in the Worldwide Church of God for 10 years? Herbert W. Armstrong was called God's modern Apostle. His book The Mystery of the Ages was called the greatest spiritual writing since the New Testament was written. His word was law in the church. The WCG was the most uptight, conservative religious entity I have ever known, not that much different from a group of Hasidic Jews. If we missed Sabbath services, we would be reported to the local minister and inquiries would be made about our absence. At our local church, we were watched at church pot lucks to see if we ate a dark spot on a piece of chicken. If we did, this was reported to the minister because we had ate "blood" in violation of the OT teaching.
We thought Herbert and his son Ted were the two witnesses. Their authority was passed on to those who came after them.
The Forum rules consist of just a few sentences that are easily understood. The WCG was a super Nazi type of church that tried to enforce the Law of Moses to the nth degree.
How can you say you are not used to a structured environment if you were a member of the WCG (or any of the offshoots) for 10 years? Something does not compute.
John
I used to think for a very short while that Mr. Armstrong was an apostle but I soon began to question that, thats one reason I had constant trouble with ministers, I was put out before. I stopped believing that. They thought many things I began not to believe, but I saw nowherelse to go, until God gave me the strength and ability to walk on my own. So I don't view him as an Apostle, but I think God used that church for certain things, even as a beginning for many here. A filter to bring you through for his own purpose.
But I do think Armstrong was a good writer, so your point is well taken, I was under a dynamic leader for awhile, but I consider Rays mind as far more spiritual than Armstrongs. I have never been under a guy like Ray. But after Armstrong, I have had my fill of being under men. Their rules and regulations; so I best walk alone.