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=> Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings => Topic started by: Astrapho on April 09, 2009, 07:49:46 AM

Title: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on April 09, 2009, 07:49:46 AM
Lol yes I know.

I've been reading Ray for two weeks now (woah it was that long!) and mostly it's been "OMG THIS CAN'T BE REAL HE MUST BE FABRICATING SOMETHING" and then it's "But wait I can't find anything against it and look at all those emails trying to do such a thing" then it's "BUT NOWAE SO MANY PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THIS?!" and then it's "God chooses only a few to see" and then it's "No way, this can't be real, I can't be one of them very elects, right? Right? I'm a stupid nobody!"

It really, really doesn't help that recently... Okay, great. This is a very long story but I'll keep it brief. I was from a Roman Catholic church, and I began to see a lot of problems with it and that started my search for God. I was more of," Why do they do all these physical things? How come it's this bread? Why do they say the same things? How do they know what measurements to use everywhere? How come Jesus looks different on the cross all the time? It's not fixed? Why does our rosary thing look so much like Buddhism? Oh, yay look, us Catholics are kinda similar to the other religions, is that good?" Plus a whole lot of other things and thoughts I can't really find words to express.

Then someone from Oneness Pentecostal came over and preached to me a greater truth than the Catholics. No trinity! Yay, we can dance and clap and shout for the Lord! We go all high in the Holy Spirit! We speak in "tongues"! Baptism in Jesus' name only, I mean LOOK all the apostles baptised in Jesus' name! The salvation plan for today, much like Noah's ark and passover during their respective times: Baptism by the Holy Spirit and water in Jesus' name! The alternative is eternal hellfire and you won't get Raptured before the tribulation! Acts 2:38! Revelations! At this time I sought to get out of the Catholic Church and go to the Pentecostal one, thinking about the very same "overcoming" Ray mentioned. Because that Oneness Pentecostal church was the only one of its kind in this country. It seemed grounded in absolute truth.

Then... Then... I found Ray's writings.

There I was, thinking I've gotten the full truth, and there Ray was, saying that... These tongues are fake, there is really no hellfire, we don't need water baptism, there is no "eternity" in the bible, and... There is no physical church on Earth that is, well, really real real. Things in my heart that I somehow believed, things like we don't actually have real free will like the church says, Ray said was true. I never really believed in the Rapture because of its sheer unbelievability. And Ray really said it wasn't true. I couldn't fathom why God wants all people to be immersed and baptized in Jesus' name when sometimes there are physical inhibitations if they want to be "saved" from an eternity of hellfire, even when sometimes they want to do it but died before they could do it. I've literally gotten nightmares about hellfire... Not really me in hellfire, but more of me, in my dream, thinking about hellfire... Without hope; even if you repent in hellfire, God won't hear you. It's for eternity. If you miss the mark by just a little, that's the future for you. Eternity in hellfire. No future. 

You can imagine my emotions now, I guess. Everything I thought was full truth was not really full truth. I've overcome the Catholic Church and I thought I was in the right place, but I really wasn't. But something kept drawing me back to bible-truths. I was somewhere in between absolutely joyous and absolutely wanting to tear out all my hair. This is too extreme. But somehow I thought this was the real deal. I can't believe I'm thinking this, but I want to break off the Pentecostal church. Argh!! I'm afraid I've gotten myself in way too deep and convinced everyone there that I was convicted by "truth" and things...

All because I decided to "test the spirit" of the Pentecostal tongues...

That's basically my life story for the past few months. I'm still reeling. I'm still reading. sometimes I feel like I keep skipping from "one truth to another". Am I too gullible? Am I normal? :o

Anyway, that's not really the whole point. I can't believe I just told my life story, in fact. I just felt like pouring out all my conflicting emotions at once. It's working well.  ;D

HELLO ALL (All I planned to write before I came up with that drivel) !!
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: jg on April 09, 2009, 10:09:52 AM
Welcome Astrapho!!!!!

     Thanks for posting your story.  It wasn't long ago I was in the same position you find yourself in right now.  Isn't finding "truth" priceless?  What a ton of emotions we go through.  Like you, I was thinking, "Can I believe this Ray guy?"  "Am I being deceived, tricked into some false teaching?"  The verse about deceiving the very elect kept running through my mind.  But that only drove me to prove something,,anything,, wrong. 

I started out wanting to know about tithing so I googled it up and found myself reading Ray's paper on it.  It made so much scriptural sense.  I dont know about you, but some of the other titles almosty scared me off, like no trinity, tongues and the no hell letters.  I found myself thinking, if Ray's paper on tithing made such sense, I have to go back and read at least one more paper just to see if there might be more truth, or would I find a bunch of crap?  The thing I kept coming back to was how it all seemed to fit in with what the bible said.  I found one thing after another that debunked what I had been taught, none of which I could disprove.

The most important thing God showed me was that He really is Love.  I cried, (dude, I'm a man, not suposed to cry)  anyway, I cried like a baby when the truth of His love was revealed to me through the letter to Hagee on no such thing as a hell that burns people "forever and ever and ever." 
I think thats when I fell in love with God.  I had vowed I'd never serve a god that would burn people forever,,even those who had never heard of how to be saved.  How is that love? How could He expect me to love my enemies when He would burn His enemies, not just for a time, but from this moment on,, with NO end?  What a croc! 

Anyway, you're not alone, many here have basicly the same story as you.

Welcome, in the name of our Lord. 

Joe
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 09, 2009, 10:53:57 AM
Welcome Astrapho.  I can't add anything much to what jg shared, because the both of you have described my experince as well.  The Light is bright, and the potter's wheel spins pretty fast sometimes, but sometimes it seems like the Lord has to disorient us before He reorients us.  And to think it's only beginning.  I pray we all remain teachable and amazed and that you continue in your reading, studying, and proving.  Anyways, welcome again.  I hope we and you are greatly benefitted from our association in this forum.
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Coach Kimo on April 09, 2009, 11:05:59 AM
Hi Astrapho!
Thank you for sharing your heart about being torn in the middle of being a "pentacostal" believer. The "pentacostal" movement is a very deceptive movement. I can attest to being in your shoes and searching for biblical answers while at the same time being a "holy roller." I was involved with a faith healing ministry for several years. I praise God for bringing me out of the "pentacostal" movement and I praise Him for bringing you out too.

Many of today's mainstream Christian churches (it's what I refer to them as) have so much anti-Christ teachings in them. But the sheep are made to live in fear and guilt if they don't participate or act and do like everyone else - You know that, right?. Well, it is very "cultish" and of course it's modern day brain washing "In the name of Jesus."

Praise God for the light that shines within you. May the Lord continue to give you strength, wisdom and understanding.

The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus be upon you.
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Marky Mark on April 09, 2009, 12:01:42 PM
Welcome to the forum Astrapho,and hope to hear more from you :)


Peace...Mark
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: jassy on April 09, 2009, 01:40:06 PM

HI Astrapho

I dont think you wrote drivel. It was a wholehearted post. Because  much of my journey has been with the Lord alone without much outside interference,I have learnt how to realise when something is off. When something is wrong I get disinterested and cant concentrate. That happened on my short foray into mysticism, with tounges and with the hell story amongst over things.
That has not happened with Rays biblical perspective. It is confirmation of what I suspected if nothing else. And I have not lost interest. Blimey, I joined the forum.

peace and God blessings to you
joan

Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Phil3:10 on April 09, 2009, 02:39:12 PM
Astrapho,
Welcome to the forum and GOD'S truths. I, along with many others, have experiences much like you. It took me a year reading Ray's teachings and trying to disprove them to know that what he writes is true.
Our LORD is in control and HIS will is going to be done.  HIS love is beyond belief and HIS mercy is everlasting. HE is so big and we are so little and HIS SON did everything we will ever need spiritually for our salvation.
What you wrote is from the heart and I think it pleases GOD and has a positive influence on all that read your testimony. I look forward to hearing more from you and can assure you the more time you spend in Ray's teaching and in this forum will be a blessing to you.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on April 09, 2009, 03:52:00 PM
Hi Astrapho

The Lord also dragged me out of the Catholic dominion of demons into the Pentecostal circus of demonology.

I cried abundant tears of grief and shame after reading the expose on the teaching that revealed the hypocrisy and the trickery of tongues. I was so grateful that Ray admonished to repent immediately in the finale of that teaching!

Welcome to the Forum

Arc
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: charrie on April 09, 2009, 04:01:12 PM
Hi, Astrapho

Welcome

Charrie :-*
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: meee on April 09, 2009, 07:22:41 PM
                Hey Astrapho,
                    Thank you for being so open and expressing it so well, what most of us have or are going through.
                    My journey has been all over the place too, and I even had been at Ray's site a few years back, but at that time I wasn't ready, because I didn't see in the spirit ,that yes,this Is God's Truth. So I think God brings us around and back , at least it seems this way for me.
                    Looking forward to seeing you in the forum!!
                    Glad you're here, your sister in Christ,meee{Terry}
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Kat on April 09, 2009, 08:31:41 PM

Hi Astrapho,

I'm glad you have joined us  :)
Now it is going to take time for all this to sink in.  You have a whole lot more study ahead of you and if you stick with it, then it will start to come together for you.  There is a lot to read on the BT site and there is a lot more here.  But do not become overcome with all there is to study, be thankful for so much material that is explaining this truth for you.

Here are a few links to things we have here that you can check out.

The forum rules, it will help you see how this forum is moderated.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html

Forum Indexes & lots of Info.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,14.0.html

Ray's Videos
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8227.0.html

Ray's Audios 
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

Ray's 2008 Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html

Transcripts of Ray's Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,12.0.html

Who Am I? (members pics and personal stuff)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,16.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: indianabob on April 09, 2009, 08:59:08 PM
Good evening Astropho and welcome to the rest of your life.

Please do not be concerned about the stress of NEW knowledge, it is very normal and will go away in a few years.  (smile)

I have been studying since 1969 and have gone through at least three transitions of understanding.  So here I am at age 74 and I sometimes feel that I am still in second grade.  Not to worry, it is perfectly normal because God treats each one of us as unique individuals and works with us according to His will and knowledge.  Try to let yourself go and trust God to work with you at a pace that you can handle.  God knows what is best for each person.

Love to hear from you anytime and please take advantage of each opportunity to exercise your spiritual muscles, your heart and mind.

Regards, Ole Indiana Bob
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Marlene on April 09, 2009, 10:11:43 PM
Welcome Astrapho! Your story is interesting. Its cool to see the many ways God uses to drag each of us here. Some are similar and some are different. I had fallen into a sin and felt like a total failure. I had been searching through different believes that just let me all the more confused. I was in a Hell of my own mind. When, God led me to Ray's website I found out I had more to repent of then the sin God delivered me out of. This was the start of the right path for me.  Just, keep studying Ray's articles. The forum members here really care for each other. It is real in here. Glad to have you to fellowship with.

In His Love,
Marlene
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: cjwood on April 10, 2009, 03:02:25 AM
I was somewhere in between absolutely joyous and absolutely wanting to tear out all my hair.





hi astropho,
welcome home  8). i absodoodlelutely could identify with your statement above. actually, that is pretty spot on where i was at when i first started reading ray's essays. and now some 3 yrs later i still sit in amazement at the utter, well, nonsense that is put out there as truth. i too remember thinking that what ray was expounding on had to have a hitch in it somewhere, BUT, WRONG PALEFACE!! i have spent many nights and days and days and nights just thanking our Father for the Love that He is and the Love that He has, and the Love that He sent to us named Jesus Christ. and i let Him know that i know that i am just a measly little bitty worm with a very LARGE beast in me, BUT, He STILL loves me. now that is almost too awesome to believe, BUT, i do believe it because, well, because the Spirit of Jesus Christ confirms it to me time and time again. okay, i better close this or else i will go on and on. anyway, welcome to your new home and enjoy your time in the forum Living Room.

cheers,
claudia




















Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on April 10, 2009, 06:09:28 AM
Thanks for the warm welcome, guys! :D It definitely makes me feel better to know that I'm not alone in this whole Truth thing. :D I was kinda afraid I'd come out looking like a whacko, posting my story up there right in my very first post, but I'm glad that my fears were unfounded, :) Looking forward to the next few months/years here in this awesome, God filled place! ;D (Sorry for smiley overload, lol!)

Anyway, I must hasten to tell you what happened this morning. I think God is spinning the potter's wheel waay too fast! D:

Today's Good Friday, right? Yeah so this morning, my Dad (I'm 15, and I feel so young here!) wanted to drag me off for the Good Friday mass at the Catholic church (Nope, I'm not physically out of it yet). And I really didn't want to go because of the whole pointlessness of it.

Guess what? Okay, my Dad knows that I've been getting myself neck deep into the Pentecostal stuff, and it turned into a confrontation!! It somehow boiled down to me, finally saying that, "I don't wanna go to church; not the Catholics', not the Christians', I don't want to go to church!"

Silence.

And he was like, "A month ago I thought I was the one who needed prayer, but now I know it's you! Look at how confused and brainwashed you are!"

Minor background info: After I got into the Pentecostal thing I tried "spreading the truth" to him. Looks like it's come to kick me in the behind...  :'(

Ahhh!! What should I do? I think I'm screwing everything up!!

(Sorry for ending the post on such a flustered note, but now I feel like an ant on hot platter x_x )
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 10, 2009, 07:49:21 AM
At 15, you ARE a little young here...but you're not alone.   ;D 

It's a pretty uncomfortable place to be to be at odds with your parents over matters of faith and concience.  I'm not 15 any more, but I was 'preaching' to my folks about that age, and didn't have very much 'truth' at all.  Don't sweat the 'mistakes'.  God has led your steps in ways you may not recognize just yet...maybe won't ever in this life.

He ordained your parents for you--and ordained that you would be their child.  He made you grow up Catholic.  He caused you to flirt with Pentacostalism.  He gave you this desire for a geniune and meaningful relationship with Him.  He's opened your eyes to falsehoods, lies and deceptions, and He's given you a glimpse of the real 'meaning of life' stuff.

There's no need to 'preach' to your Dad.  Check out Ray's 'winning souls' article for a complete teaching on 'why not'.  But there's nothing at all wrong about being honest with him, as you were in declaring you really don't want to go to any church.  Try to keep up that honesty, no matter which short-term direction your life takes.  God works over the loooong haul.  Remember Moses, Joseph, Noah?   

MAYBE it's enough to tell him that you know you've been confused and you want to take some time and sort things out.  Of course, WE hope you can and will continue to study here.  From your story, it seems extra clear to me that God has been preparing your heart and mind to believe.  Not everybody understands that, and hopefully your Dad is one who will at least give you some space to grow.  He is right about one thing (and surely about more than one thing)--and that's that you need prayer.  Who doesn't, right? 

I guess the last thing I can share is that you should be careful not to mix a renewed faith with a natural 'rebellion' that may also be going on in your heart due to your age.  It may not be wise to 'stand up to' your Dad.  But at 15, you are old enough to stand up with him and speak your mind.  I think (though others may not) that it's not necessarily vital that you 'come out of her' physically right now.  That's a pretty grown-up step.  Again, hopefully your dad will see that this is important to you.  But don't let me 'despise your youth' as Paul admonished Timothy concerning others.  I'm not your Lord.  Talk to your Heavenly Father about how and when to make that step. 

I look forward to knowing you for a long time. 

Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Marlene on April 10, 2009, 10:39:30 AM
Astrapho, I cannot give you any better advice then what Dave has given you. Wow, it is awesome to see God lead someone so young to his truths. I will keep you in my prayers.

In His Love,
Marlene
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on April 10, 2009, 11:24:33 AM
Thanks Dave for the advice. :) Guess it's time to start learning not to be such a big mouth (I tend to blurt out everything I'm thinking...) ;) Everything's a little calmer now, my Dad apologized for shouting at me and I apologized for being rude, and we haven't talked about it so far. :) I can't believe I missed that article, I should go read it now.

And thanks, Marlene ;D

God bless you too!

EDIT: Lol, more smiley overload!
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Ninny on April 10, 2009, 01:57:02 PM
Hi Astrapho!
I'm glad you're here! I'm certainly not 15 either, but I know some 15 year olds!!  :D That's a hard age to be, but as you know your dad loves you so I'm glad the two of you worked it out. When my sons were growing up I always allowed them to tell me what they thought. If they didn't like what I told them to do they were free to say, "I don't like having to do that." As long as they were respectful to me They knew there were certain things they HAD to do even if they didn't like it! Hey, I hate having to do laundry, but I HAVE to do it  :P so even though I may hate doing it..it has to be done!! There are a lot of things you will do because your dad asks or tells you to do it. Going to church is sometimes second nature with families and it looks like a member who no longer wants to go is giving up his faith. People aren't able to differentiate between being a "Christian" and going to church or being a Christian and NOT going to church! If you DON'T go to church... NOT a Christian..GO to church yeah, GOOD Christian! There is no in between to people! Be patient with your dad and remember he's just part of the above mindset!! Be a good example to him honor him and treat him with respect, I'm thinking that will pay off for you in the long run! ;D

These are just my thoughts on the matter, not worth much, just an opinion! ;D ;D
Kathy ;)
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: charrie on April 10, 2009, 10:45:04 PM
Hi, Astrapho

You have been given great advice.  If I may had, Astrapho, it may help reassure your dad, if the subject comes up again, that your love for Christ Jesus has not changed if anything it has gotten stronger and that you are actually learning and growing more in Him then ever before.

It sounds like the two of you have a very good relationship.  Be thankful for him being in your life and concerned about your direction in life.

Charrie :-*
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: judith collier on April 11, 2009, 06:21:34 AM
Hi Astrapho, all I can say is ditto! Also sounds like my story. And remember to not hide your light under a basket even if you are only 15. Gosh, I wasn't that smart until I was 40. I never questioned anything for most of my life. And state your story and your questions just like you are doing. It sounds good to me and I am 66. Your enthusiasm is good for us and just think of all the love you will get here and good teaching besides. What a good spiritual life you will have walking with the Lord so young. Judy
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on April 11, 2009, 03:05:31 PM
Hi ;D If I'm not careful, this might even become a diary, haha! :D

Thanks for the advice guys. :D They're really invaluable! ;D

So anyway today... Okay, basically I have one Catholic friend who was very upset with me about going to the Pentecostal church, so today when I told her that I wanted to leave both churches, she was overjoyed! Apparently before that, I was acting almost like I were possessed. I even said things I don't even remember saying, like, "It's the truth and nothing but the truth and if you can't handle it, I guess we'll be on opposite sides on our religious beliefs."  (I seriously can't believe I even said that :-X )  It's scary to think how much I was deceived by the Pentecostals! After she told me stuff like this, truly I felt like I was on the "Sand of the sea", watching my "beast rise up from the sea"! ;)

But anyway, I tested the waters about "not going to church at all" with her, and she was extremely against it. She has a gut feeling that my faith will go as whacky as when I went to the Pentecostals, and wants me to stay in the Catholic church to join in my Youth group activities, even if I don't believe in Catholicism at all. I told her it makes me feel like a hypocrite... And yes it does, I only lip sync to creeds now, and really have to put on this act to my church friends in catechism class.  :-X

I can't stand going to church anymore... But on the other hand, her gut feelings are usually right, and it feels weird going on an internet forum to fellowship... (Are any of you doing it?  ???)

Anyway, today was much calmer. My Dad's not home yet btw ;) And I ended up with another part of my life up here anyway (Sure hope my friend doesn't find this post! :O)

God bless!
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on April 11, 2009, 03:47:59 PM
John tells us that Satan has a "synagogue." Synagogue means "a gathering together, an assembly, a congregation." This should not sound strange to our ears, seeing that we have already learned from Paulís writings:

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed as into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the minister of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their work."

And so Satan has "false apostles," and "ministers of righteousness." Where then would we expect these false apostles and ministers of righteousness that belong to Satan, to reside? Why in "The synagogue of Satan," of course! And what do Satanís ministers do that enables them to "deceive the whole world?" Paul again tells us:

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

And just where might we find such a "synagogue of Satan, with false apostles, and false ministers of righteousness, witnessing to the world with power, and signs and lying wonders?"

Certainly not in some macabre-looking, haunted-house structure with a giant marquee out front reading: "COME AND WORSHIP WITH SATAN AND HIS DEMONS"!

WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?

The synagogue of Satan is located in the churchesóin The Church!

"Öyou have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev. 2:2).

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

There is another kind of assembling Astrapho.

NOT FORSAKING THE ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER

In Hebrews 10:25 were are admonished as follows:

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching."

That this is speaking of believers congregating together to worship and study Godís Word, there can be no doubt. However, there is a much deeper meaning to this "assembling" that few have ever seen. I never saw it myself until I read a paper by J. Preston Eby, entitled: "FORSAKE NOT THE ASSEMBLING."

I will quote an excerpt or two from his paper:

"The Greek word for Ďassemblingí is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super Ė imposition Ė that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI-SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS!

It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place.

It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRITÖ"

(All Caps belong to Mr. Eby).

This Greek word episunagoge is used only one other time in Scripture, and that is in II Thes. 2:1:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together [Gk: episunagoge] unto Him."

In Hebrews 10 we are admonished to "assemble" in an high meeting, a meeting in the SPIRIT! In II Thes. 2 this meeting in the Spirit will become a literal meeting with our Lord.

And so, back to our question once more: Which denomination should we join? Where should we go to Church? Where should we "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together?" In a physical building of some physical denomination? No. WE are to episunagoge (assemble) on a higher plane, in a higher realm, in a spiritual assembly, IN THE SPIRIT!

This is not something new. This is exactly what Jesus Christ taught regarding where and how we are to (go to church) worship God.

"The woman said unto Him, Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye [all the Jews] say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe Me, the hour comes, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour comes, and now is, when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH: for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit: and they that worship Him MUST worship in SPIRIT AND TRUTH" (John 4:19:24).

We have got to get out of the depths of Satan if we are to worship God in Spirit and Truth. The Church is filled with the depths of Satan. That is not the place to go to worship God in spirit and truth. Did Jesus go to the synagogues to worship His God?

"And when He [Jesus] had sent the multitudes away, He went up into a mountain apart [Gk: Ďby Himselfí] to pray: and when the evening was come, He was there alone" (Matt. 14:23).

Amazing, isnít it. Jesus "assembled [Gk: episunagoge]" with His Father BY HIMSELF, ALONE. We can do the same. Not just on Sunday morning or Wednesday evening, with a crowd, in a building, but on every day of the week, and we can do it while we are ALONEhttp://bible-truths.com/lake11.html
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: charrie on April 11, 2009, 08:06:48 PM
Astrapho, I agree with what Arc has posted.  Thank you, Arc, well done :)

I can't stand going to church anymore... But on the other hand, her gut feelings are usually right, and it feels weird going on an internet forum to fellowship... (Are any of you doing it?  )

Astrapho, I felt relieved not going to church anymore!!! ;D ;D  Like a burden had been lifted from my shoulders.  What to me is strange or rather difficult (for now) is attempting to explain to my family and friends why I no longer desire to go to a church.  Maybe because I know they will not hear.."hearing but not able to hear".  So, if they don't ask I don't tell.  I actually was invited by my roommate to her church next sunday because Kirk Franklin will be there.  She is the church's administrative secretary and her and the pastor know Kirk personally. 

Would you believe that I haven't even told her (and this is my ROOMMATE) that I no longer attend church!! :-[ :-[   I actually would like to go JUST to hear Kirk and then leave.  I already know that I am unable to sit and listen to these pastors lie.  I find I can only take it for about 5 minutes at the most.  The minute they mention people going to hell or talk about the "trinity" etc....I can no longer listen >:( >:(

Do you think it would be rude just to go to hear Kirk and then leave ??? ??? ;)

I have decided not to go, though.  I don't want to be rude like that.  I have known the pastor personally for a couple of years. 

Wait, what was the subject ::) ::) Oh, yeah finding it weird fellowshiping on the internet.  No, I look forward to it.  The weird thing is, actually, is the feeling of close family.  But like Arc said, we worship (even on the internet) in Spirit and in Truth. 

Charrie :-*
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Dave in Tenn on April 11, 2009, 08:27:04 PM
Arc has shared what real fellowship is.  

Now look at your words.  If you want to have fellowship by pretending to be somebody that God has not made you to be, then join a theater group.  At least everybody there KNOWS they are playing a part.   ;D  To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if you weren't the only person in that Catechism class that doesn't believe in Catholicism and is mouthing the creeds as well.  

Look up James 1:26 and thereabouts for a scriptural definition of worthwhile religion.  I know you're 15 and don't even have your DL yet, but in Spirit you can begin to live like that.  Come to think of it, that's what we're trying to do for you here, even though you're not phsycally an orphan or widow.  But you are under some affliction and we're trying to visit you the only way we're able.  

The forum is not A fellowship (to my mind) but it is a 'place' OF Fellowship.  So yes, I DO have fellowship here--often imperfect, sometimes painful, occasionally even seemingly pointless.  It's never that way with just me and the Father, even when it feels a little 'off'.  

I think your friend may have her own good reasons for 'fearing' for your faith--some not even related to her own catholicism, perhaps.  But I don't think her gut feeling should outweigh what you see in Scripture and what God has already prepared in your heart and mind.  

Join a band, get involved in volunteer work, paint scenery if you can't act.  That's my 'practical' advice.  All the while, continue to study and grow.  In short order and in God's timing, you'll begin to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (and that ain't tongues) without following a religion at all.  You'll stand out like a white carnation on a black background and your Catholic friend will wonder what happened to you.  

I hope you don't get forced into going back, but I mostly hope you don't get friendly coerced.  Either way, God is not finished with you yet...not by a long shot.  He wanted a Child in His own image, He made you, and He'll get what He wants.  That's "Ray Smith" and the Gospel of the Kingdom in a nutshell, huh?    
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Patrick on April 12, 2009, 10:46:07 AM
Quote from: Dave in Tenn

God is not finished with you yet...not by a long shot.  He wanted a Child in His own image, He made you, and He'll get what He wants.  That's "Ray Smith" and the Gospel of the Kingdom in a nutshell, huh?
    

Uh-huh!  :)

Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: cjwood on April 12, 2009, 04:14:29 PM
astropho...as i sit here reading your original thread post and your following posts, and the reply posts from our Family members, i am just wondering if you have ANY idea of the Gift of Grace you have been given by our Father. i mean, He is working in your spiritual heart and mind to show you hidden gems of His Truth which millions of people have never known, AND, you are only 15 yrs old! He has chosen to begin teaching you what His true worship is at your tender age, and He has chosen to teach so many others of us at, well..., our more mature age in years, although MANY of us had the questionings going on in our hearts and minds in our younger, tender years. i pray that you will continue to study all the writings and listen to all the audios that ray smith has been given to provide for ALL who would believe the True Gospel of Jesus Christ. our Sovereign God and Father worked His Gift of Grace through the man ray smith, using him as His vessel to open up the Scriptures to us and to all others who visit the BT website. God worked in ray's spirit, as ray continued to go to Him for guidance and confirmation of the Scriptural Truths which he was being shown. and now we will profit in our spiritual hearts and minds as God gives each of us the eyes to see the Truths and the ears to hear the Truths, BUT, we must stay vigilant in studying the Scriptures as ALL the answers to the questions of how and how not, and who and who not, and when and when not, and where and where not are answered within them. believe it astropho and walk in the Light that you have been shown, and as another brother in Christ said, "sunglasses are recommended"  8). a Light so intense and so full of Warmth and Love that only a FEW will know it, as HE has called them out of her, mystery babylon, to see the Savior which is Jesus Christ. you know, the One Who will save ALL the world, that vast, vast sea of mankind.

love to you little brother,
stay strong in the faith which You have been given as a gift,
claudia
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Phil3:10 on April 13, 2009, 12:21:46 AM
Astropho,
Dave and Arcturus have given you some wonderful advice. I commend you in that at your young age your understanding is so great.
I have reached the point that I cannot stand to enter a Babylonia church for any reason. The untruths and false doctrines really do get to me and I feel almost sick when attending even a funeral or wedding.
Arc is so right about simple worship in spirit and in truth. The fellowship you find here is without comparison anywhere.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on April 15, 2009, 01:39:08 PM
Thanks guys for all the great replies! :D They really are helpful :D (Wow, I don't know if I should continue to treat this like a mini diary thing...  :-\ I mean it's my intro thread, after all... I should go make a blog, yeah?)

Cjwood: Wow, now that you put it that way :O I have yet to stop and think about the enormity of it... 

When I first read the article on that "higher place of fellowship", I didn't really treat it seriously, kind of because I'm not that intelligent and barely qualified to just walk alone with God, and I fear that without anyone by my side in real life, and I may wind up walking the wrong path and stuff.  :-X And, like I mentioned earlier, using an internet forum as a place of fellowship is pretty... Unusual :O

Almost everyone in that Pentecostal church was, in and out of church service, in the simplest terms, passionate about Jesus. They were living pretty good lives, they're nice people, they're all about Jesus, and when they worship they throw themselves into it (no pun intended). I guess that's what sucked me in in the first place, their passion. They doctrines are not so perfect, but they have such great passion and desire to "live as Christ did"... Oh my.  :-[ Alright, I'm digressing.

Day 3 of reading Ray's transcripts and listening to his audios. 'Tis awesome ;) Right now I have read the things about free will, God's sovereignty, the one on eonian life, plus a few others I can't quite remember. I really gotta resist reading too much, though, it's sapping up study time, haha. :D

It's pretty weird. Just three weeks into reading all this stuff and I'm practically converted. Just last week it was shaky, but this week is a different story altogether... I wonder if I'm jumping into all this too fast, too soon, and with too much enthusiasm... That's what I did for the Pentecostal church, dive head first into it (and also headfirst out of it :-X). And I'm still pretty young and I'm still having fears about me absorbing all this merely because I'm too gullible. I still can't shake off the feeling that I'm "jumping from one truth to another". :-/

Oh yeah, about E-Sword! Which version is the Concordant Literal Version? 'Cause I can't find it on their downloads page... ???

Anyway, that's yet another brain vomit from yours truly. Haha.

God bless ya'll ;D
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: cjwood on April 15, 2009, 05:25:33 PM
oi astropho,
at your young age, it is not at all unusual to have a high level of energy going from one thing to the next, but, in regards to you jumping too quickly from one truth to another, understand that your Abba Father is causing you to be dragged from a perceived truth (catholic, pentacostal) to His Truths. your enthusiam is not because you are being too gullible, as we ALL experienced and still do experience that same enthusiam you have when we too were first shown via the Spirit of Jesus Christ, all that God has revealed through the man ray smith. i remember when i first came to bible-truths and started reading ray's essays, i kept asking myself "can these things be the Truth?" (in my carnal mind/heart), BUT, the more i read and the more i talked to my Father about it the more He confirmed all that i was seeing and hearing. all i can truly say astrop. is BELIEVE IT. once you really, really get the spiritual understanding that NOTHING happens in our lives by coincidence, but that all of what happens, even little bitty seemingly insignificant things, are according to God's predestined Plan and Purpose. the Scriptures advise that the pathway of those who believe the Truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is narrow. that being because the majority of mankind does not believe the Truths of God through His Son, so the path of those who do is a narrow one indeed. AND, you will experience that many times it is a lonely path to walk, BUT, that is why God caused bible-truths and this forum to be created. we walk the narrow path together and have been given a means to communicate with each other in Spirit and Truth. you mentioned that you are just barely qualified to walk alone with God. know that none of us are qualified in and of ourselves to walk with God. age has nothing to do with it. we are only qualified through faith in Jesus Christ, not because one may seem more spiritual than the next. our qualification has nothing to do with who we are, but with Who Jesus Christ is. He is our Brother, our Lord, our Savior, our Example, and when He left this earth, he did not leave us alone, to walk alone. through God, Jesus Christ left us His Spirit and has put it in the hearts of every one who believes in Him. and in that He is our Comforter and our Counsellor.

take it one step at a time little brother. the Light you now see is the only True Light of Worship.

cheers,
claudia
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Samson on April 16, 2009, 01:20:01 AM
Great Introduction Astropho,

                                       It brought great joy in my heart to experience that initial zeal through
                                       you in having these marvelous truths revealed by God. It reminds me of
                                       the time I first learned that the word Eternal wasn't supposed to be in
                                       the Scriptures, I sought to learn all I could about Aionios(pertaining to the
                                       Ages) with a beginning and ending and how Punishment(chastisement) was
                                       remedial and for our benefit and correction. These were things I learned
                                       prior to my discovering Ray's teachings. However, I first learned the most
                                       important Truth of all from Ray, We don't have a Free Will, only caused
                                       choices and everything we did and will do is contingent on God's Will in
                                       are lives.

                                                             Thanks Again, Samson.  ;)
                                     
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on April 16, 2009, 07:01:27 AM
cjwood:

Yes, I'll continue to pray. :D Wow, your posts really make me think about the enormity of things... How the "itty bitty little things in life" contribute to this big grand plan... Wow. Wow. :o This reminds me of this close shave just last Sunday. I almost impaled my friend's face with a knife once, but he happened to be leaning back slightly at the time so it missed. Imagine if he felt like leaning forward! :o  I'm sure all of you have this sort of stuff happening all the time too, right? Almost get killed or something, but nothing happened just by sheer... chance (orly?).  ;)

Samson: Wow! That's awesome to know. :D Yeah, the more I think about the "We haz no Free Will" thing, the more it makes sense, strangely... I have this feeling, though, that were I to tell someone about the truth about free will, he'll say "that's precisely what we mean by free will though!" and then "Free will is just a term to describe something, it doesn't have to mirror the actual meaning... Right?", because strangely those things what I first thought when I read Ray's papers. :o

Yep, the initial zeal for truth isn't dying anytime soon. :D I must be off... To gobble up more! ;) ;)

God bless!
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on April 19, 2009, 09:44:27 AM


I find when touching ever so  very lightly on the subject of free will, that it produces a most hostile offence to the unregenerate mind. It is truly a most sacredly cared for idol of the carnal heart. It is almost as if the wolf in the sheep's clothing cares nothing to ripe off their polite cordial deceptions to bare their ravenous teeth without regret or compunction if the conversation goes futher to prove that God IS Sovereign.

Truly God has shown us that the carnal mind is deep seated, very DEEP and SEATED, (not standing but lunging comfortably cushioned in a seated position)  hatred for Him. 

Touch my cushion and I kill you says the carnal mind to whosoever would dare take away their comfortable seat.

No wonder Jesus went in to the temple of idolatry with a whip!

Arc
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on May 01, 2009, 04:05:07 PM
Quote
Touch my cushion and I kill you says the carnal mind to whosoever would dare take away their comfortable seat.

Yes, I guess that must have been what I was feeling as I felt all the garbage in my mind getting hacked into pieces. It's still happening.  :-X Can't say it feels too good... Wait, it does. Feels bad and good at the same time. I think this is the appropriate time to say, "I'm somewhere between absolutely joyous and absolutely wanting to tear out all my hair" again.  ;)

Now I'm faced with this question from both myself and my Catholic friend: How do we know that the scriptures we have now is the unaltered Greek/Hebrew scriptures? I want to try to explain this to my friend who doubts the veracity of the manuscripts (I do too, sometimes), but I can't use the word "faith". I'll have to show her honest scholarship to show her that the manuscripts are 95% unchanged... And how do you say it... She doesn't believe the bible because the scriptures it's translated from may be wrong, and the original language in the interlinears may also be wrong. I admit to sometimes feeling like that, so I think it's time to do some honest research. What books/websites would you guys recommend? From my own efforts, I've gone through a lot of sites defending and attacking scripture, and I've ended up more confused than ever because both sides seems fully justified in their respective positions. Thanks in advance! :D

EDIT: Also, I forgot to add this in, but my pentecostal friend is pushing me to get "baptized in Jesus's name for the remission of sins". I told her to give me more time, but she's getting more anxious by the day (Always never failing to remind me that I will be in eternal hellfire if I don't, and I realized that I now believe that there is no hell so much that I even have to suppress a desire to tell her so) and I don't know what to do. Should I get baptized anyway? Is it a sin? There seems to be this strong feeling in me that says that if I get baptized, I will never get out of pentecostalism, but at the same time I fear that the thought is irrational and is just me being paranoid. It's hard to tell God's voice from my own sometimes. But yes, should I just go along and get baptized just so that she will stop pushing it?

God be with you :)

(Yesh, I'm still here and still jumping with enthusiasm. :D)
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: cjwood on May 02, 2009, 04:56:32 AM
my friend who doubts the veracity of the manuscripts (I do too, sometimes)

my pentecostal friend is pushing me to get "baptized in Jesus's name for the remission of sins". (Always never failing to remind me that I will be in eternal hellfire if I don't, and I realized that I now believe that there is no hell so much that I even have to suppress a desire to tell her so) and I don't know what to do. Should I get baptized anyway? Is it a sin? There seems to be this strong feeling in me that says that if I get baptized, I will never get out of pentecostalism, but at the same time I fear that the thought is irrational and is just me being paranoid. It's hard to tell God's voice from my own sometimes. But yes, should I just go along and get baptized just so that she will stop pushing it?


astropho,
i will start out by saying that i chalk much of your vacillating back and forth up to the fact that you are so young. but, with that being said i will attempt to comment on the parts of your post that i have italicized above. it appears to me that your friends are seriously trying to influence you. i guess they think they have your best interests at heart, but in truth they have their own best interests/agendas at heart. also, and very importantly, one can't doubt the veracity of the scriptures and believe in the scriptures at the same time. you can't sit on the fence when it comes to the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God. (again, i know you are young in years and you have much yet to learn regarding the scriptures (as we all do actually), but the point i want to stress is that you either believe the scriptures or you don't. one might not have a full understanding of all that is contained in them, but your faith and belief that they are from God shouldn't be on shaky ground. granted, there are differences in translations, but the hebrew and greek manuscripts from which the translations were derived from are genuine. ray has a very good study in the videos section on the forum, about where did we get the scriptures from. that is not the actual name of the video, and i apologize for not knowing it, but you can look in that section and go through the archives and find it. regarding your friend pushing you to get baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of your sins, and her reminding you that if you don't you will go to hell, and your suppressing the desire to tell her your belief (and the Truth) that there is no hell, i say, go ahead and tell her what you believe and why you believe it. she opened up the can of worms so to speak. of course, don't be surprised when she tells you that you have been deceived or some other nonsense. it might make it easier to just give her the bible-truths.com website address and tell her to read it for herself. water baptism is purely physical, and it cannot give you remission of your sins. God did that through Jesus Christ and your baptism, as well as the only True baptism now is the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit. of course, your friend will be clueless on this point also, so just tell her if she wants to really know Christ Jesus, and the Love of God, just give her the BT address again. astropho, you have no NEED to be water baptized. if you will read through ray's papers and emails regarding baptism, water and spiritual, you will be shown all there is to know about the subject. regarding your being confused about having a "strong feeling" and not knowing if that is God's voice or not, that is something that you will learn by life's experiences and by continuing to study the scriptures (and what He has revealed through ray smith). okay little brother, i better end this post. ANYTIME you have questions about ANYTHING, this forum and this website are the BEST place you can come to. the world WILL NOT have the answers. i can guarantee that your 2 friends DO NOT have the answers.

i love you little bro,
claudia
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Dave in Tenn on May 02, 2009, 04:27:01 PM
I used to be a Sunday School teacher years ago...Southern Baptist large, growing church and full of 'the spirit'.  (Blind leading the slightly blinder).  I had a class of 7th grade boys, who I moved up with to the 8th grade, and again to the 10th grade.  One of these kids was a particular 'favorite' and I kept up a relationship with him until he graduated High School and went into the Air Force.

Didn't hear from him for a couple of years, but one day I got a call from him.  He had met a family of some church people who had convinced him he needed to be baptized in Jesus name.  Fine, as far as I was concerned then.  That wasn't enough though...he was calling to tell me that I too needed to be 'baptized' the same way or I would suffer the fires of Hell.  Oh my!

Looking back, that conversation was maybe part of the beginnings of the fall of my religious and spiritual house built on sand.  I just couldn't get the image of a a persnickety God who would fry people for all eternity for not going through the 'right' ritual.  man, oh, man does religion never suck??

Now...despite my excellent  ;D teaching, HE had been swayed to follow somebody else's ritual instead of the ones he grew up with.  If he later was convinced to 'sell all he had' and later to gouge out his eye and cut off his hand, and later be 'born again' some other way, "casting out demons in His name", and "speaking with the tongues of men and angels", then he just tripped from one bit of emptiness to another, chasing shadows, and cursing the light, casting everyone else into some version of Hell.   

You're friend most likely truly believes this.  My old 'student' did.  That's why (at least mostly why) they felt compelled to get US wet the ""right"" way.  You'll do exactly what YOU truly believe.  There's no escaping that. 

Just from me, it's one thing to 'honor thy father' in putting some decisions on hold until you've reached majority...it's something else entirely to try to please your friends.

Ray has some audio and transcripts on "How we got our Bibles."  Since we're here, seems like a good place to start concerning understanding what Scripture is (and isn't).  Check those out.  Claudia is right, though, it comes down to faith ultimately, and if somebody isn't given to believe or doesn't WANT to believe, there's nothing that will make them, though there is mucho evidence of the true nature of Scripture.

Hang in there.   
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on May 02, 2009, 05:21:03 PM
Claudia:

Thanks for the great post! :) I'm going to be looking for that audio in a moment (It's 3am here... I'm not exactly supposed to be online... Yikes). I think it's time to decide which side of the fence I'm going to drop off regarding the scriptures.

I think you nailed it. I'm getting pushed around by my friends more than I should be, and the worst part is, I know it, but I can't do anything about it.

Quote
and her reminding you that if you don't you will go to hell, and your suppressing the desire to tell her your belief (and the Truth) that there is no hell, i say, go ahead and tell her what you believe and why you believe it.

That's the hardest part. I don't think I'll be able to do that without looking like a complete fool. She has done more studies in scripture than me, with her going for bible studies for years now. I'm also quite bad with (spoken) words so I don't think I'll be able to tell her the "why" of it in person. And her life revolves completely around pentecostalism, so if I do that I may fall out with her... I don't know, but for now I'm just putting up a front. It's no good to pretend, I know, but I really can't gather enough courage to tell her what I really believe after pretending for a month plus (didn't realize it's been already a month :o). And that said I think I won't go for the baptism, but I'll see how it goes. If it really comes down to it I think I'll get baptized and promptly disassociate myself with them... Though it'll be hard, yeah. :O


Dave:

Thanks for sharing your story! :D

Sometimes I find it really ironic that they "save souls from eternal hellfire" out of love. ;D

Quote
You're friend most likely truly believes this.  My old 'student' did.  That's why (at least mostly why) they felt compelled to get US wet the ""right"" way.

Hit the nail right in the head. ;D

Quote
Just from me, it's one thing to 'honor thy father' in putting some decisions on hold until you've reached majority...it's something else entirely to try to please your friends.

Now that's thought provoking, really.
I sometimes feel as if I'm just trying to please everyone around me other than myself.

Yeah anyway I'm just gonna scoot over to check out that transcript :) Thanks for alerting me to it, I can't believe I missed such an important topic. ;D

Thanks for the invaluable counsel, guys. :D

I think that I'm going to start a blog soon. I guess I shouldn't double my intro thread as an A&Q thread. Will post linkey when I do. :)

God bless!

(I think it's time to clear up the last and most important part of my introduction) Michelle
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: cjwood on May 03, 2009, 03:36:45 AM
Quote from: Astrapho link=topic=9744.msg83966#msg83966 date=1241292063
[b
(I think it's time to clear up the last and most important part of my introduction)[/b] Michelle


astrapho,
i am a little confused by your last statement. is your name michelle? or, is that the name of your pentecostal friend? or is it just getting late and my mind is playing tricks on me (again)? ??? ???

claudia
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on May 03, 2009, 11:53:13 AM
Quote
astrapho,
i am a little confused by your last statement. is your name michelle? or, is that the name of your pentecostal friend? or is it just getting late and my mind is playing tricks on me (again)? Huh Huh

Yep, that's my name alright. :) I can't believe I forgot to reveal my name in my intro, haha. ;D
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Marky Mark on May 03, 2009, 12:39:20 PM
astrapho,

  Maybe this transcript on FOUNDATIONAL TRUTHS would be of great help in your dilemma, with your friends.
 
There is an audio also on FOUNDATIONAL TRUTHS.[look in Rays audios]


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html




HOW TO GIVE AN ANSWER

Now I said you are going to learn something today and Iím getting to it.  Weíve partly got to it, but not completely.  So I just read you 7 profound Scriptures;
God is not willing that any should perishÖ God will is that all should be savedÖ God has commissioned His Son to be Savior of the worldÖ God is loveÖ love never failsÖ God will do all of His pleasureÖ
We read those Scriptures, right.  Now here is the thing, when somebody tries to show you, íoh yeah He has a desire that all people will be saved.  He has the desire.  Itís just that it wonít happen.í  Of course the main reason is because He gave man free will and they will not all freely choose Him.  So God will have to torture them for all eternity.  Donít get sucked into that. 

I mean maybe when you become really mature in the Scriptures you can allow them to go there and talk to them.  But Iím telling you right here today, donít get sucked into those arguments.  These ministers of the worldÖ when people who have a fairly good education in the Scriptures, they will eat you for lunch. 

I have people all day long that send me emails and say, ĎRay Iím in trouble, I went to my minister and told him he was a stupid SOB and the Scriptures said this.  Well he said that and now Iím in trouble.  Iím going to see him again tomorrow and Iíve got to know how to answer him Ray.í 
Well I say youíve made your bed, now sleep in it.  Sometimes Iíll give them a little information.  But a lot of times I say, no, I am not going to teach you how to make a fool out of your minister.  Your minister is going to make a fool out of you, because your attitude is wrong.  God doesnít teach us these Truths so we can go out and make fools out of people. 

So hereís what you do and hereís what you think, if you are talking to someone this is what you say. 
If you have already established that you believe these 7 verses that I gave you.
 
Now if they say something like, Ďyeah but what about this over here?í 
You say, Ďwait a minute, I just read you Scriptures that made a profound statement and one of them was that God DOES NOT lie.  Now does any Scripture state that God DOES lie?í

Donít let them suck you into their train of thinking.  You take control.  Say, ĎIs there a Scripture that says, God does lie?  Is there?  Well is there a Scripture the says God does not lie?  Yes.  Then if all Scripture is true, which one is true?  The Scripture that doesnít exist or the one that does exist?  The one that says God does not lie, is the Truth.í 
Is there a Scripture that says that the Scripture are NOT inspired of God?  Is there such a Scripture?  No.  Well then donít let anybody take you someplace and quote you something that they say contradicts that Scripture.  Donít go there.
You can say, Ďlook I believe this Scriptures.  Now do you have one that says the Scriptures are NOT inspired of God?  Do you have a verse like that?  No.  Well forget it, our argument is over.í 

Is there a Scripture that says God Word is NOT true?  If they want to take you some place that contradicts one of those 7 Scripture, which are true, then there canít be a Scripture that says one of those Scriptures is not true.  If there is no such Scripture and they say, Ďyeah but this oneÖí 
Just say, ĎI understand that you do not understand that Scripture.  But it does not contradict the Scripture that says Godís Word is Truth.  Regardless of what you think it implies or might mean or this or that.  It does not say that Godís Word is not Truth does it?  No.  Well then do we have a Scripture that says God Word is Truth?  Yes.  Then you canít have a Scripture that contradicts that.í

See you canít have a Scripture that suggests sometimes under certain circumstances, that there are times or places where Godís Word is not true.  No, so donít go there. 

You can say, ĎIs there a Scripture that God does NOT wish - care - please - want to - desire - wishes or any word that you want to say, that all men be saved?  Is there a Scripture that says that?  NO.  Well if you canít show me a Scripture that says He doesnít want all men to be saved, then you try to tell me the one that says He does want them saved, is a lie.  Donít you go there with me.  Thatís the true Scripture.í
 
If he has no Scripture that says God doesnít desire or wish or want or please that all men be saved, itís because there is no such Scripture.  But if he tries to come up with anything that contradicts it... It canít.  Because we have a plain statement. 

Is there a Scripture that says the Son will NOT be the Savior of the world?  God the Father commissioned Jesus Christ in 1 John 4:14 to BE the Savior of the world.  Now is there a Scripture that says God did NOT commission Him or that He will NOT be the Savior of the world?  Is the such a Scripture? 
So then donít let anybody take you somewhere to some Scripture, that they think contradicts this Truth.  Donít go there! 

Say, Ďyouíre dead in the water.  Because Iíve got a Scripture of Truth and the only way you can tell me that it is not true, is if you contradict it.  If it contradicts, then the Word of God is not true, it is not inspired and God is a liar.  Iím not going there with you.í
 
Do we have a Scripture that says that the Scripture we have just read CAN be broken?  You know we read one that said the Scripture CAN NOT be broken, so do we have one that says, well under certain circumstances it can?  Can Godís laws be broken?  Absolutely.  Can the Scripture be broken?  The Bible says no.  So donít try to give me some Scripture where you think, Ďwell yeah they shall perish.í  God says He is going to save them and itís His will - itís His pleasure, itís His wish - itís a desire - He is going to fulfill all His wishes, all His pleasures, all His desires and He will save them. 
So say, Ďdonít try to show me a Scripture that contradicts that.  There are no Scriptures that contradict that.í  If they say, Ďwell it sounds like it.í  You say, 'well it sounds like it because you donít understand the Scripture that you are reading.  You donít even believe the simple ones that I just showed you.í
 
Is this easy for you now?  Are you getting it?  Does it make sense?  Do you have to be a scholar, a theologian?  Do you have to know Hebrew and Greek to understand what I am telling you?  Itís simple.

Do we have a Scripture that in the judgment God will change His mind and will desire that most of humanity will NOT repent and will perish?  Come on, we just read, He is not willing that ANY should perish, but they ALL come to repentance. 
Is there a Scripture that says, He is NOT willing that all come to repentance and He in fact, at judgment will wish and will and desire and perish most of humanity in torture for all eternity?  Do you see what I am saying?  If you believe the Scripture, those 7 Scripture that I gave you.  Now we can expand them, but with just those 7 you can counter anything in the Scripture.  There is no false doctrine that you canít counter with one of those 7 points.  Nothing. 

You say, íwhat about the trinity?í  Thy Word is Truth, is there a Scripture that says that God is made up of three people?  No. Then you donít have a Scripture for that.  ĎNo, but it says back in Hebrews Elohim, and thatís in the plural, so thatís the trinity.í  Excuse me, if something is in the plural does that mean three?  If I say I have eggs in the refrigerator, do you automatically think I have three?  If I say I have dollars in my pocket, is it three?  I could have two or ten thousand. 
I get emails that say, ĎRay itís in the plural, canít you see it, God is in the plural, thatís the trinity.í  I say I donít see three in there any where.  Look it up in Hebrews, look it up in the dictionary.  Elohim does not mean three persons. 

So maybe God doesnít lie and everything that God says is true and the problem is with His Son and Jesus Christ failed to do what He said.  You see God the Father is not here on earth, nor was He at the time of Christís ministry actually speaking in the first person - Father, to the people and the Pharisees.  He did it all through His Son.  So maybe His Son screwed up?  Maybe itís not the Fatherís fault, maybe itís Christís fault?  Well letís see if Christ failed to do what His Father sent Him to do.

John 8:29  And He (the Father) that sent Me (Jesus) is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.

There it is.  Well what are you going to do with that?  What is Godís good pleasure?  What is it He desires?  That all men be saved!  What is it He doesnít desire?  That any should perish!  How is He going to accomplish this?  By sending Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the whole world.  Is Jesus Christ going to do what His Father said?  ďI do alwaysĒ what My Father said.  See that! 

John 4:34  Jesus said unto them, My meat is to DO THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME, AND TO F I N I S H HIS WORK.

Whatever God the Father sent Him to do, He will finish it.  What is the big commission?  1 John 4:14, God commissioned Christ, His Son to be the Savior of the world.  So anyone who tries to tell you that any of those 7 Scriptures and has contradictory Scripture, he is a lying two faced hypocrite and a charlatan.

So did you get the point of how you approach all the false doctrines and the heresy and everything else?  You get a couple of Scriptures in your mind that are true. 

God does not lie.  I mean you canít twist that into sometimes He does.

He is not willing that ANY should perish, can not be twisted into - but He will cause to perish almost everybody.  You canít do that.  How do you twist the Scripture into that? 

I will do ALL My pleasure, how do you twist that into - I will only get a fraction of My pleasure accomplished. 

How do you twist I always do My Fatherís will, I will do the work of God, how do you twist that into - Iíll do the best I can, but with manís free will itís going to be mostly a failure.  You canít twist those Scriptures into saying that and if you canít, then theyíre true.  When theyíre true you donít have another Scripture that contradicts any of those. 
That will lay to rest the entire doctrine of Christiandom.  Every major evil doctrine in the church is laid to rest, just believing those 7 Scripture. 

You need to learn as many key verses as you can, but you donít have to learn 50.  A lot of times Iíll have a subject in my mind and Iíll be flooded with this verse and that one from Deuteronomy to II Kings and Psalms and over in Job and then Christ mentioned it in John and Paul picked up on it and then Peter.  But you donít have to know all that stuff.  Just for every major idea or doctrine have a key, just one key Scripture.





Peace...Mark
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Phil3:10 on May 03, 2009, 02:07:09 PM
Astrahpo,
I, like Dave in TN, spent many years in the Baptist Church searching for answers to my questions regarding everything spiritual. I served as a teacher, deacon and on many committees but could never get the answers I felt were from GOD. It took me several years and thousands of hours of searching to find the answers and the peace that I so much wanted. Institutional, denominational, organized church doctrine is all basically the same with a few changes made to satisfy the carnal needs of the membership. I feel all these churches are just off shoots of the Catholic system and are far removed from GOD'S truths.
GOD will reveal HIS truths only to those he elects and only to those willing to search for HIS truths. Don't let one person put undue pressure on you to make a spiritual decision regarding baptism. In spite of your young age you evidence much maturity in your knowledge of the Scriptures. Stay in this forum and in the teachings of Ray Smith and you will find the answers and the peace that our GOD has for you. GOD is faithful and will reward your diligent search for HIS truths.
I have had several opportunities to direct people who are searching for real truths to this site and my earnest prayer is that GOD will bring the increase. The greatest lesson I have learned is that all is of GOD. HE is in control of everything and HIS will will be done.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on May 04, 2009, 06:41:11 AM
Thanks for the replies, Phil and Mark. :) It just puts a big smile on my face to see that people on this forum actually care, something really lacking nowadays...

I think that I'm the one holding me back from ever coming clean with my friend... I don't know how to say it. It's like I don't want to get so serious about these stuff with my friend because... Well, she's a friend. I'm just so afraid that it'll become a quarrel and we'll fall out and she will never talk to me again.

Anyway, to respond I'll need to post more stuff that happened today. Not a lot... But like I said I don't think it's rather appropriate to turn my intro thread into this huge Q&A corner.  :-\

Therefore...

Mah blog! http://cutting-bottles.blogspot.com/  ;D

I posted about what happened today, yeppity yep.  ;)

(Ignore the title, I couldn't think of anything else)
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: cjwood on May 05, 2009, 03:34:38 AM
michelle,
i have been reading through different things on your blog and i must say, you are absolutely awesome. and to be so young. girl, you are so right on with so much of what i read. i had to stop reading and different go all the way through your random christian blog section, but i loved what i read. do you have any idea what valuable and precious Truths God is showing you. before long you will not be able to hold back any longer with regards to your pentecostal friend, the Holy Spirit will just give you the words. you have to make a choice between drawing close(er) to Jesus Christ or pretending to follow along with your friends doctrines of man. you WILL come to that point where you choose between the Truth of the Gospel or the loyalty to a friend who is currently blinded and might i say even hardened in her heart to wanting to "search the SCRIPTURES daily to see if what they say is true" (again, referencing info in your blog).

come on baby sister. you can do it. Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit which is IN your heart will guide you. i will say it again, just give your friend the bible-truths website address and let God do the rest.

love you little sister,
claudia
Title: Re: Moar new members!!
Post by: Astrapho on May 05, 2009, 11:54:16 AM
Claudia:

Thanks for the reply big sis. :D I didn't think anyone would be interested in my other blog (more like a ranting section to let off some steam and pin down my thoughts... I hope I hadn't sounded too arrogant :-[). I'm glad you liked it, though. ;D

I'm still daily praying for Him to teach me more about Himself and increase my spiritual understanding... Whew, what a long, rough road ahead! :)

Yes, it's that point I'm fearing the most. I even went to stay back in school to study math till the school was closing (my most hated subject) just so that I didn't have to face my friend and risk spitting myself on that point. :( Yikes. I just pray that the Holy Spirit will indeed give me the right words that day when it comes...  :-X I always seem to use all the wrong words in speech...

Quote
i will say it again, just give your friend the bible-truths website address and let God do the rest.

I'm considering doing just that... But I'm just really, irrationally, afraid. :(

God be with you,
Michelle