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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: gallenwalsh on October 07, 2012, 12:15:47 PM
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
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First the physical then the spiritual. Ray said God is spirit and creates the physical, but what else is there? Is there something besides the spiritual and the physical? The human mind just wont go there. Maybe its just Gods way of showing us what he is capable of. Plus none of us could ever go across our own galaxy in one lifetime much less any of the big ones that dwarf us. So life in other Galaxy's doesn't really matter if they can't get here or we can't get there. Possible…why not. Probable … not. Reality is if there were why would they want us? We have to have water to live they may not. Now of a truth I do know there is other life out there but not the little green men you are thinking of. The bible speaks of messengers (angels) from heaven … so other life yes. Just my thoughts
Greg
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Question is about what we can see, not what we cant see. Angels or messengers, sports etc. have nothing to do with the universe. What reason would God have to create more than once, is He not perfect. Other life out there, I dint thank so. Man has created other life out there, not God. Ricky
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
As everything that God does there must be a good reason for it. Either to be destroyed soon or to be used somehow in the next ages, I'm 100% sure there's a good reason for it, the size of it, the way it was done, etc. So I believe that there's no "just for show". There's a reason, and it's probably mind blowing :)
God bless,
Levy
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I think of the grandeur of the universe and the vastness beyond finding out all it's wonders is a physical shadow/reflection of how tremendous our God is. You know He could have designed this universe any way He so desired, I mean He could have created earth all alone in a kind of bubble, but He did not. He chose to show His glorious creative mind and power through the things He made.
Rom 1:20 For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Now truly I don't believe that we were designed for space travel, nor do I think that was ever intended. But hasn't God revealed the wonders and glory of this incredible universe to us without having to have a first hand view of these things? Even the prophets and patriarchs of old knew a great deal about the universe without having all of our technology to probe into deep space. How was that possible? I believe the earliest man (Adam) was taught about it and shared that knowledge and the later generations built even more upon what they knew, as we are aware of ancient charts and calendars.
So is there a purpose in all this planetary design even for us now? Aren't all events connected and affected by nature as a whole, so that planetary movement and interactions have an impact on our Earth? Couldn't that be part of the purpose of it's design? I think so, we know that that planting and harvested crops is a very old technique based mostly on the movements of the moon and was done with quite a degree of accuracy and benefit. Using planets and stars is probably the oldest form of navigation, having the stars at night, and the sun during the day. One of the greatest stories in the Bible is the story of the star of Bethlehem.
Unfortunately as a result of astrology and numerous other unscrupulous articles about planetary nonsense, this part of natural science is mostly discredited in the modern world. But even if it is clouded with this absurdity of some, it still can be considered and appreciated and recognised as the grand marval of are Creator that it is.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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God created the universe and all that's in it. I know this will not be popular but I strongly feel that The Creator of the universe that we know consist of billions of galaxies with billions of stars and planets would just create life forms on one puny planet called earth. I believe God has been around for ever. Alpha & omega.Therefore I believe He has many different life forms on many of the billions of planets in the billions of galaxies across the universe. Now as far as traveling across the universe. No not if we think as humankind in the 21st century. Using 21st century tech. Never happen. How much do humans really know. I how much we think we know. I believe theres so much more that we have not a clue. I believe we have a small taste of what God is and all that He encompass. I could go deeper but why? I probable said too much.
Darren
Ps. Kat you say we were not designed for space travel. I agree. The way God made us physcially. But If God is in control of all and has foreknowladge Then He knew from the time Adam was created that man would traval into the heavens. AS many BTers say God has us just where we should be. Sorry just my thoughts no offense.
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Hi Greg,
I like these questions!
As of today, evidence does not exist that any forms of life exists outside our planet.
The possibility for life however does exist I believe!
There are very tiny creatures living on earth now that are capable of living in the vacuum of space called "water bears"
They are as of now the only creature capable of living in such harsh environments.
The elements that we are made of are very common to the entire universe. We are made of seven of the top 10 most common elements of the universe. By the way, there is no significance to the number seven here. We are made of lots elements in varying degrees of abundance.
So another question you can ask Greg is whether life is equivalent, not as intelligent or greater in intelligence? With, I guess we would be the baseline for that intelligence.
Also, since it took billions of years to come to what we have today, what makes us think that life anywhere else is as developed as here on this planet?
There are many arguments for and against life elsewhere but I tend to lean towards life. In what form is the question? I personally don't believe we are being visited by intelligent life either.
Also Darren makes a good point.
I don't quite understand statements like, "We are not created for space travel" What does that mean? That I can't fly around in space like Superman? I agree if that’s the point of making a statement like that!LOL But we are out there now! Mind you in vehicles designed for space travel.
We are not thwarting God's will when we "seemingly" defy the laws he has put in place. Those same laws make it possible!
Greg,
Questions like these are beyond the scope of this forum but they definitely help us grow in the knowledge of this universe and possibly the purpose for a vast and ever expanding universe. I do believe God is preparing something for us. What that is I'm not too sure. Science is something I realize we can’t ignore anymore such as I did when I was in the worldly church.
As Ray has show more than a few times, science can reveal God to us in ways the words in scripture convey only when understood through that lens.
Greg I hope I help or given you a reason to do some research on questions like these.
Antaiwan
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Hi Antaiwan,
I don't quite understand statements like, "We are not created for space travel" What does that mean?
I made a comment like that and I don't mind explaining what I meant by saying that. Well at least just put my perspective up anyway.
Well we have managed to bump around in our on solar system a bit. But we have not even begun to explore our on Milky Way galaxy, other than by telescope, sophisticated ones for sure. But there is just too much unknown and it's too difficult and costly to consider maned space travel, even in our solar system much less the Milky Way galaxy or beyond is incomprehensible.
The universe is vast beyond measure. Astronomical distances are measured in light-year, approximately 300,000 kilometers per second or 186,000 miles per second. The nearest known star to the Sun is Proxima Centauri, which is 4.23 light-years away. The fastest outward-bound spacecraft yet sent, Voyager 1, has covered 1/600th of a light-year in 30 years and is currently moving at 1/18,000th the speed of light. At this rate, a journey to Proxima Centauri would take 72,000 years. (Wikipedia)
Hey but that's the way it is now, maybe in the future man will put aside their differences and work together to develop major new advances in technology so we can strike out across the universe. Don't hold your breath :D
But what good would it do to have space travel in God's plan of salvation. Seriously, that's the way I look at it. If it's some other life form other than a man, what's the point, we are designed in the image of God, a man, "God created man in His image;" (Gen 1:27). So what would other life forms out there some where provide for us, we are still discovery new species here on earth.
If it turns out that there are other civilizations out there across the universe some where. Well I guess we will meet together at the resurrection, as that's the only way possible I can see for us to be brought together. I hope it does not sound like I'm arguing, I didn't mean to, I do get a little intense sometimes. But just thought I'd give another view point for what it's worth :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kathy,
I like that perspective you provided about the distance issues.
Ray has spoken on that a couple times I believe.
Yeah, it just too darn far! But that has nothing to do with life not being possible. That idea just shoots down alien visitation theories.
It's too far for them to travel! What a waste of fuel and other resources to mutalate cows, draw circles in the grass and taking a couple country folk minding their own business!!LOL Not too intelligent by my judgement!
But travel time aside, is it possible that life is out there?
I believe it's possible because of what everything is made of.
The big bang spewed out everything necessary for us to be here. I find it arrogant to believe that this planet is the only one to support life of any kind or will be the only planet to support life of any kind. This theory assumes that earth isn't taken out by a huge asteroid or survives the supernova of our sun. I think about this sometimes...don't you?
Our sun is going to die one day (billions of years later). This brings up a lot of questions in my mind.
How do these things mesh up with the plan of salvation?
If the earth is destroyed, is God's plan ruined??
Will no one be on the earth in billions of years?
See where I'm going? I think you do Kathy, your mind churns too!LOL
So...I think about how this will work and still wondering......
So.... as for the kind of life
Kathy, I think your assuming life equivelent to human beings? As man will be in the image of God not other creatures, right?
Why do we need to be brought together with them IF they are human? Plenty people here on this planet die without knowing their neghbors.
So... on what other life forms provide for us...
Well.....
What do other life forms here provide for us?
What do all the things in the entire universe provide for us? Just a map?
It wasn't just your statement, its been all over the forum. People making claims about what's important and what isn't.
My concern with statements like that is, "How do we know what's necessary and what isn't?"
The wisdom in what God accomplishes may include things we "think" are not necessary for the plan of salvation to be accomplished.
The problem is we are not wise enough to know what those things are. Who is? Let them speak now!LOL
Statements like that go all the way back to good and evil in the same fruit in one tree! Evil is as necessary as is good.
But we keep trying to separate them. "Well, if I eat this side of the fruit it will be okay."
Nope, its all in there and we have to make sense of it all.
How can we separate what isn't needed vs. what is needed?
Hope you get my point.
Kathy Hope you don't take any of this the wrong way.
Hope this doen't take your thread of topic Greg!
I'm definitely not trying to prove life elsewhere exist but I do believe the proof for the possibilty exists.
It is a big universe and its getting bigger!
Antaiwan
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Hi Antaiwan,
I'll admit I enjoy this kind of conversation very much. Having someone of like mind to bounce these ideas off of is very productive I believe.
But travel time aside, is it possible that life is out there?
I believe it's possible because of what everything is made of.
The big bang spewed out everything necessary for us to be here. I find it arrogant to believe that this planet is the only one to support life of any kind or will be the only planet to support life of any kind.
Okay, I would think this is going on the idea of evolution? God started it all, but it's now just building itself or something like that. It's the line of thinking that the chemical mix that came together on earth to bring about what we have here, should have certainly occurred somewhere else in the vastness of the universe, right? I don't see it that way. It is my understanding that God intervened here on earth to bring about the plants and creatures that we have here. Therefore this that we have here is a totally unique creation in the whole of the universe.
I can see how the earth was brought about in the natural formation of planets (but even that was preordained by God) that occurred throughout the universe with all the planets out there. But the seeds of plants that started the vegetation to growing on earth, where did they come from? Evolution. I don't think so.
Gen 1:12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Where did these seeds that brought forth plants come from, the earth brought them forth, but did it make them? I don't think so. Where did the animals and creatures in the water and air come from, evolution? No.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind...
Gen 2:19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air
God was the direct cause, He literally "made/formed" them and brought them about, that's why we have life on this planet and that's why I don't believe there is other life out there. I just don't see any mention in the Scripture of other life out in the universe. Because God is not just playing around with life here, so He might have made a few other planets with life just to see it how it works, no, He already knows how it will work. He know "the end from the beginning," so He already knows what will happen.
I believe that everything that is created here on earth throughtout it's history was ultimately for the plan of salvation. So what was the point of the dinosaurs then... doesn't mankind study and even use fossil fuel now? This is all a very intricate and complicated creation, God's creative genius is far above what humans can figure out with all the connections and interactive roles things play with each other. That's good, God gave us marvelous and curious minds that wants to explore and investigate and learn, well we will never come to a point where we know all there is to know about this incredible creation.
Our sun is going to die one day (billions of years later). This brings up a lot of questions in my mind.
How do these things mesh up with the plan of salvation?
If the earth is destroyed, is God's plan ruined??
Will no one be on the earth in billions of years?
I do not believe the human race was intended to have a permanent physical existence. We are all ultimately to be born into the God family with spiritual bodies, Like Christ has. This is a temporary experience of good and evil in which to shape and mold a character in us. We all need knowledge to start with, all the evil and good we experience forms a backdrop, so God has something to work with to shape and mold. Yes He will evenually destroy all the evil/carnality in us as He shapes/molds us into His image, but He will not destroy the unique personality that we all have developed that makes us individuals.
This process of the creation and life here on earth is so carefully planned and being worked out. But Christ will return and begin the process of redeeming the whole human race, that could be some time off yet, but I do not believe it is billions of years away. When/if the earth is destroyed at some distance time, it will have been ordained to happen and will not interfere or be contrary to God's plan.
So there is more of my thought and again, for what it's worth, just a little exchange of ideas :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Here's a what if for you all. What if, since we are to be sons and daughters of God, we are to create our own "earth" like Christ did? It could be what the rest of the universe is for. We are to be saviors right? Just maybe God is using his creation family to be a creating family throughout all the universe he has made. Gods thoughts are higher than ours, and we wont know until it occurs , but why not? Just a thought,
Greg
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Gregorydc, what scriptures do you think indicate those possibilities in the scriptures?
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
Hi Greg,
Since there is no Scriptural evidence that Life Exists elsewhere and Ray doesn't teach this possibility, I guess this is another opinion related General Discussions Topic where speculation will predominate. Since God's prized creation, Human Beings are extremely Carnal, that's the majority of the Planet and need an excessive amount of refinement before everyone is completely created in God's spiritual image, a process that's lasted for quite some time from Our perspective, it shows there's allot of work that needs to be done In & For Us to remove Our Carnal Nature. Aside from a very small minority, the Elect of God, there's not much change being done in the present Eon.
As an example displaying Our extremely Carnal Nature, Our Race, Human Race that is, We mainly ignore aiding & assisting Our fellow Human Beings down here on this planet while spending Billions of dollars sending Probes, Instruments, Manned & Unmanned Spaceships all over the Galaxy to determine whether or not Life exists or existed elsewhere while the "intelligent" creatures down here are Carnally messed up. That being the Mindset(spending money & resources like this) while neglecting even the basic things that need vast improvement demonstrates to Me that there's too much work to be completed here first.
I like Star Trek, Star Wars and Science Fiction for Entertainment too, but I would think or speculate that God would probably finish the work done here before creating Life elsewhere in the future Eons. When the time arrives that none of us fall under the category of Galatians. 5:19-21, the works of the flesh, then only God knows already in advance if He has plans for Life elsewhere, there doesn't appear to be any Scriptural evidence to suggest this.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Hi Kathy!
I'll admit I enjoy this kind of conversation very much. Having someone of like mind to bounce these ideas off of is very productive I believe.
So do I!! ;D
I'm not married to any of these ideas by the way! Just talking about what I'm talking about!
Okay, I would think this is going on the idea of evolution? God started it all, but it's now just building itself or something like that.
Kathy, I don't quite understand all the aspects of biological evolution but the first few chapters of genesis certainly imply it.
Let the earth.....etc.
Let the waters.....etc.
Both denote a process, right?
I think a good study in how elements come to be can help. I'm just diving into my new hobby of physics and a little chemistry!!
Regardless of how we see it God is responsible, that's for sure.
It's the line of thinking that the chemical mix that came together on earth to bring about what we have here, should have certainly occurred somewhere else in the vastness of the universe, right?
Instead of should, I believe it could.
I'm not saying other life exists, I'm saying it could. Big difference right?
Life may be unique to this solar system but what about elsewhere? I can't say for sure. Who can?
God was the direct cause, He literally "made/formed" them and brought them about, that's why we have life on this planet and that's why I don't believe there is other life out there.
God is the direct cause of all. When is he indirect?
I just don't see any mention in the Scripture of other life out in the universe.
Neither do I, but I'm not making the point that it is. There are many objects in the universe not mentioned in bible verses as far as I know. I'm not trying to make a case for other life from the scriptures.
Just taking Gregs question seriously. Most alien questions are not anwsered with a degree of research or inquiry.
Because God is not just playing around with life here, so He might have made a few other planets with life just to see it how it works, no, He already knows how it will work. He know "the end from the beginning," so He already knows what will happen.
I'm not implying that! No, I'm not implying test sites!LOL In wisdom, he did all! Yes I agree!
I believe that everything that is created here on earth throughtout it's history was ultimately for the plan of salvation.
I agree!!
I don't know the purpose for all creatures. In Ray's 08 nashville conference, I remember someone saying that the dinosaurs provided that fuel. Ray said they provided something else but never mentioned it again. I have always wondered what he thought?
Yes Kathy, everything is intricately laid out but I have no reason to believe we won't figure it out! At least not with a carnel mind!
God is a wonderful architect of the universe and I can't help but think about the way in which he did everything.
I'm a designer myself and the process of design seems in line with which God created everything, from conceptualization to a physical finished product. I think it can help in understanding how he did it!
Kathy, I respect your thought process!
Thank you for a mature conversation! And yes this is just an exchange of ideas!
Gregory,
Those thoughts have crossed my mind many times. Nothing to support it but being like our elder brother!
I like the way you think!
Brad,
Yes, this is another opinion related general discussion topic where speculation will predominate!
Maybe the moderators can move it to off topics?
Antaiwan
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Hi Antaiwan,
Kathy, I don't quite understand all the aspects of biological evolution but the first few chapters of genesis certainly imply it.
Let the earth.....etc.
Let the waters.....etc.
Both denote a process, right?
I think a good study in how elements come to be can help. I'm just diving into my new hobby of physics and a little chemistry!!
Regardless of how we see it God is responsible, that's for sure.
God is the direct cause of all. When is he indirect?
What I meant by God is the 'direct' cause of life on earth, is that most systems in the universe do move along as designed by God in a kind of evolution kind of way. From the 'big bang' down through the billions of years all the planets and stuff are moving as preordained to, so that the universe is moving along to where we have it now.
But here on earth things are very different, as the earth reached a certain stage of development God directly intervened and "made" or brought about the different life forms we have here. Then He designed them to continue on in a kind of evolution kind of way. The earth and waters do bring forth life now in the way that God designed them to, but they did not start or evolve on their on. That is why we see all the other planets as barren wastelands, God has just left the evolution process He caused to continue with them. Earth is the only exception, at least I think it is.
I believe this whole creation is designed just for us and to bring the people here into the family of God. If it turns out there are others out there some where, so be it, I won't be mad ;D
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kathy!
I wouldn't be mad either and I don't think we have reasons to be mad :)
Life existing somewhere else wouldn't contradict the laws of the universe or scripture in my opinion.
Life existing somewhere else wouldn't make us less unique in my opinion
Mercury, Venus and Mars are definitely not as biologically active as our planet and I would agree that the seeds of life prospered here far better than our neighbors!
End the end what does it all mean? Nothing really. The plan of salvation carries on with or without Joe Blow alien! ;D
Nothing added and nothing taken away.
Antaiwan
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As a cellular bio major, evolution as the origin of life, unguided, is a complete farce and requires more faith than believing God made the animals, man and life as we know it.
I say this with good authority and understanding on the subject.
Adaptation and "micro evolution" as they would call it does occurs all around us but... "macro evolutions" as the origins of life is as of yet nothing more than a theory.
Unfortunately the term evolution itself is constantly changing and all it means today in a university and scholarly setting is a "change over time." In that sense... adapation constitutes as evolution so I guess that means evolution brought about all this life because we just said adaptation does occur right? WRONG PALE FACE! It's not the evolution you're thinking of.
Adaptation brings about variations in species over time but it does not change one species into another. This would be the difference between "micro" and "macro" evolution. Virus' undergo mutations which cause adaptive changes to secure their survival in an ever changing environment as well as bacteria (and even ourselves, see; "sickle cell anemia" and why it displays dominant patterns of inheritance) but these virus' and bacteria do not change into eukaryotic organisms and etc.. they remain virus' and bacteria respectively.
Here's the catch though.. an evolutionist would argue that with enough time and adaptations (aka mutations).. adaptions or "micro evolution" can result in "macro evolution." This has not been proven nor shown to occur. It's just assumed.
Become a cell bio major if you want more info and you'll learn why evolution is just not the answer.
I'm a year away from my B.S. degree as well as a minor in chemistry.
IF evolution happened and that's a big if, and not the adaptation kind, then it was guided by the hands of The Almighty. There simply is no other way. Not even with 4.6 billion years worth of time.
I guess that's my, informed, opinion. ;)
God bless,
Alex
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Yes earth is special teaming with life. Life is in the skys, in the deepest darkest coldest parts at the bottom of the oceans where no life should be. Life is in the hottest deserets around the world. Life in the coldest parts of the artic. AS humans we think as humans do. Yes, the our moon seems to be a wast land. We know alot about the planets in our solar system. At least we think we think we know. Just as we knew that no life could exist on the bottom of our oceans where its pitch dark and colder than &%^*. Thats untill man took their first journy to the bottom and was amazed at the life that did exist. Totally shocked and talking about alien. Lets face facts. Just as we knew for sure without a doubt that the world was flat. We knew for sure that earth was the center of the universe. Just we know something for sure, we find out we dont know. Theres one thing I can say for certain im 100% sure I do not know if there is any kind of life on other planets. Sicentist are dicovering at an alarming speed that there are many, many earth like planets in the universe. we know alot about our little solar system. As far as outer space and beyone we know next to nothing. It just very hard (for me) to beleive The Greatest Creator God Himself would limited His creation of life on one small planet in one tiny speck of a galaxy among billions of planets and galaxies accross His universe. I beleive that there is so much we dont know about the big picture. I believe scripture that ALL IS Of God all came from God and All will go back to God. I think the word ALL is more than human can comprehend.
Darren
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As a cellular bio major, evolution as the origin of life, unguided, is a complete farce and requires more faith than believing God made the animals, man and life as we know it.
I say this with good authority and understanding on the subject.
Adaptation and "micro evolution" as they would call it does occurs all around us but... "macro evolutions" as the origins of life is as of yet nothing more than a theory.
To be precise, evolution isn't the origin of life, it just explains the diversity of life. Abiogenesis deals with the origin of life.
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As a cellular bio major, evolution as the origin of life, unguided, is a complete farce and requires more faith than believing God made the animals, man and life as we know it.
I say this with good authority and understanding on the subject.
Adaptation and "micro evolution" as they would call it does occurs all around us but... "macro evolutions" as the origins of life is as of yet nothing more than a theory.
To be precise, evolution isn't the origin of life, it just explains the diversity of life. Abiogenesis deals with the origin of life.
Yes, one predates the other. Since kat and akira were talking about evolution, I felt like jumping into the conversation right there.
But yes, technically this is true.
Random chance, luck and time is all that is required for either. I don't buy into that. If abiogenesis and evolution did occur (which I don't believe evolution on a macro scale did) then it was guided and not random or luck at all.
God bless,
Alex
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Hey Alex,
I can't speak for Kathy but I wasn't talking about evolution.
I'm not quite sure which statement I made even implied it?
I was pretty confused by what you added.
If evolution says from one kind of animal comes another kind than I'm pretty sure I don't believe that.
Scripture says everything from its own kind.
If a seed produced a type of animal and then that animal produced another kind of animal...again, i'm pretty sure I don't believe that.
I don't believe in common ancestor or common species.
The premise for me believing life has the possiblity to exist elsewhere is because of water and earth.
Other earth type planets are categorized as such because they have rocks, metals, possible water or evidence of water and solid surfaces.
Whatever it took to produce life here on our planet, these planets don't have that "seed"
There may be missing elements that make it possible.
Another thing, I have not implied an unguided creation process.
I never assume God isn't involed in any one thing but why would I have to say?
"by him all things consist" so where is he not?
Hope that's clear
Antaiwan
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Hey Alex,
I can't speak for Kathy but I wasn't talking about evolution.
I'm not quite sure which statement I made even implied it?
I was pretty confused by what you added.
If evolution says from one kind of animal comes another kind than I'm pretty sure I don't believe that.
Scripture says everything from its own kind.
If a seed produced a type of animal and then that animal produced another kind of animal...again, i'm pretty sure I don't believe that.
I don't believe in common ancestor or common species.
The premise for me believing life has the possiblity to exist elsewhere is because of water and earth.
Other earth type planets are categorized as such because they have rocks, metals, possible water or evidence of water and solid surfaces.
Whatever it took to produce life here on our planet, these planets don't have that "seed"
There may be missing elements that make it possible.
Another thing, I have not implied an unguided creation process.
I never assume God isn't involed in any one thing but why would I have to say?
"by him all things consist" so where is he not?
Hope that's clear
Antaiwan
Hello Antaiwan,
I may have misunderstood Kathy but from reading it before I thought she was talking about evolution in her third post and I decided to chime in on the "evolution" part of the conversation. I wasn't implying one way or another that you believed this or that, or that she did, merely what I believed and understood on the subject.
I apologize if It was misplaced.
As far as life in the universe goes based on earth like planets, to my knowledge, and I maybe ignorant of the facts on this one, we do not currently have any solid evidence to suggest other planets like earth exist in our universe. I.E. Discovered other planets with an actually ocean, not toxic environment, suitable land etc... What I believe the idea is, is that due to the fact that the universe is ever expanding and it is technically "infinite" in size that through mathematically probability, there must be another planet out there like earth.
Does mathematically probability equal certainty? I don't know... but God has declared the wisdom of man nothing more than foolishness before so I wouldn't be surprised if just because it's mathematically possible that it isn't a reality.
I know recently mars was discovered to have sedimentation indicative of a water system in it's distant past but that' is the past and as far as today is concerned, mars is a barren wasteland.
Hope this clarifies where I was coming from.
Again, apologies for the confusion. :)
God bless,
Alex
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Whatever it took to produce life here on our planet, these planets don't have that "seed"
There may be missing elements that make it possible.
"by him all things consist" so where is he not?
hi antaiwan. i pulled the above statements from your post reply because i found them very interesting. from the Scriptures we find that God the Father sent His only begotten Son to the planet earth. His Seed. it doesn't mention any other planet(s) that He sent His Son to be born of His Seed. He caused it to be so on earth, using the virgin mary as the vessel.
and, "so where is He not" is an excellent and Truthful statement. the God and Father of Jesus Christ is everywhere in His creation. He knows exactly what is happening at any given time in all of the bazillion, trillion parts of His vast, vast, vast universe. He IS Sovereign.
thanks for posting antaiwan. :) i enjoyed reading all the post replies to this thread.
claudia
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Just to clarify, I go along with Alex's well put and informed description of micro evolution.
Adaptation and "micro evolution" as they would call it does occurs all around us but... "macro evolutions" as the origins of life is as of yet nothing more than a theory.
v
Adaptation brings about variations in species over time but it does not change one species into another. This would be the difference between "micro" and "macro" evolution.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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*moderators, please delete this post if the link i am trying to copy is not appropriate for the forum.
i thought this article was interesting, in light of this thread and the resulting post replies.
our Father God and Master Creator must be chuckling at His "earthlings".
http://science.time.com/2012/10/15/never-mind-life-on-distant-planets-what-about-distant-moons/?hpt=hp_t3
claudia
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I live in Realville.
Science: There is no scientific evidence of physical life outside the planet Earth.
Scripture: There is not one scripture that says there is physical life anywhere but the Earth.
I also live in Realville.
Science: There is no scientific evidence of physical life outside the planet Earth, yet.
Scripture: There is not one scripture that says there is not physical life anywhere but the Earth (as far as I know).
Not meaning to be confrontational, but I like to keep an open mind. I'm not going to definitively say one way or the other whether life exists elsewhere.
It doesn't matter anyway. While interesting, we shouldn't concern ourselves too much over such things.
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
My theory on the purpose of the cosmos is that they are the potential glory of God's elect in the form of matter. I like to think that Hawking radiation - the radiation that is emitted from black holes axially - is God transporting energy that is transmuted from matter through black hole processes. I like to think that this energy is a much a more pure form of the energy/matter dichotomy, i.e. the energy that our glorified bodies will constantly emit in the New Jerusalem.
Since no new matter or energy has been created since the Big Bang - if that even happened - I like to think that the purpose of the extensive matter realms of the universe are storehouses of the purified energy fields that we will one day contain as glorified angelic beings with physical bodies. Since heaven is eonian, the aeons we move through as a super-advanced civilization will become increasingly more tolerant of energy, as we - us as physical beings, headed by Jesus; and purely Spiritual beings like the Holy Spirit and Father - will all become more advanced and perfect as we "age". (I don't think even Father is done "growing"...I think He'll grow with us, and our growth will both increase, and be a result of, His growth) Thus, the matter of the universe will be able to be transported via Hawking radiation from black holes to our bodies as we go through this "aging" process through the aeons, and we will become more glorious! :)
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
My theory on the purpose of the cosmos is that they are the potential glory of God's elect in the form of matter. I like to think that Hawking radiation - the radiation that is emitted from black holes axially - is God transporting energy that is transmuted from matter through black hole processes. I like to think that this energy is a much a more pure form of the energy/matter dichotomy, i.e. the energy that our glorified bodies will constantly emit in the New Jerusalem.
Since no new matter or energy has been created since the Big Bang - if that even happened - I like to think that the purpose of the extensive matter realms of the universe are storehouses of the purified energy fields that we will one day contain as glorified angelic beings with physical bodies. Since heaven is eonian, the aeons we move through as a super-advanced civilization will become increasingly more tolerant of energy, as we - us as physical beings, headed by Jesus; and purely Spiritual beings like the Holy Spirit and Father - will all become more advanced and perfect as we "age". (I don't think even Father is done "growing"...I think He'll grow with us, and our growth will both increase, and be a result of, His growth) Thus, the matter of the universe will be able to be transported via Hawking radiation from black holes to our bodies as we go through this "aging" process through the aeons, and we will become more glorious! :)
Wow! Where to begin? I know you are new here. But you are the poster child for why the Scriptures are so important. They steady us and in the mouth of two or three witnesses they keep us in the Truth.
My advice. Read extensively the articles on this website and use them as an introduction to the Scriptures. Believe nothing until at least two Scriptures teach you a specific Truth and build from there.
May God guide your path if it is His will for you to learn His Truths at this time.
Hey John! Can you begin by pointing out to me the stuff that is purely ridiculous? I don't know what isn't in the Scriptures, but I was just theorizing based off of nothing in particular! Kinda along the lines of the little green men talk that was in this thread.
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
My theory on the purpose of the cosmos is that they are the potential glory of God's elect in the form of matter. I like to think that Hawking radiation - the radiation that is emitted from black holes axially - is God transporting energy that is transmuted from matter through black hole processes. I like to think that this energy is a much a more pure form of the energy/matter dichotomy, i.e. the energy that our glorified bodies will constantly emit in the New Jerusalem.
Since no new matter or energy has been created since the Big Bang - if that even happened - I like to think that the purpose of the extensive matter realms of the universe are storehouses of the purified energy fields that we will one day contain as glorified angelic beings with physical bodies. Since heaven is eonian, the aeons we move through as a super-advanced civilization will become increasingly more tolerant of energy, as we - us as physical beings, headed by Jesus; and purely Spiritual beings like the Holy Spirit and Father - will all become more advanced and perfect as we "age". (I don't think even Father is done "growing"...I think He'll grow with us, and our growth will both increase, and be a result of, His growth) Thus, the matter of the universe will be able to be transported via Hawking radiation from black holes to our bodies as we go through this "aging" process through the aeons, and we will become more glorious! :)
Wow! Where to begin? I know you are new here. But you are the poster child for why the Scriptures are so important. They steady us and in the mouth of two or three witnesses they keep us in the Truth.
My advice. Read extensively the articles on this website and use them as an introduction to the Scriptures. Believe nothing until at least two Scriptures teach you a specific Truth and build from there.
May God guide your path if it is His will for you to learn His Truths at this time.
Hey John! Can you begin by pointing out to me the stuff that is purely ridiculous? I don't know what isn't in the Scriptures, but I was just theorizing based off of nothing in particular! Kinda along the lines of the little green men talk that was in this thread.
The part about us having "glorified physical bodies as angelic beings" is probably a good start. ;)
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
My theory on the purpose of the cosmos is that they are the potential glory of God's elect in the form of matter. I like to think that Hawking radiation - the radiation that is emitted from black holes axially - is God transporting energy that is transmuted from matter through black hole processes. I like to think that this energy is a much a more pure form of the energy/matter dichotomy, i.e. the energy that our glorified bodies will constantly emit in the New Jerusalem.
Since no new matter or energy has been created since the Big Bang - if that even happened - I like to think that the purpose of the extensive matter realms of the universe are storehouses of the purified energy fields that we will one day contain as glorified angelic beings with physical bodies. Since heaven is eonian, the aeons we move through as a super-advanced civilization will become increasingly more tolerant of energy, as we - us as physical beings, headed by Jesus; and purely Spiritual beings like the Holy Spirit and Father - will all become more advanced and perfect as we "age". (I don't think even Father is done "growing"...I think He'll grow with us, and our growth will both increase, and be a result of, His growth) Thus, the matter of the universe will be able to be transported via Hawking radiation from black holes to our bodies as we go through this "aging" process through the aeons, and we will become more glorious! :)
Wow! Where to begin? I know you are new here. But you are the poster child for why the Scriptures are so important. They steady us and in the mouth of two or three witnesses they keep us in the Truth.
My advice. Read extensively the articles on this website and use them as an introduction to the Scriptures. Believe nothing until at least two Scriptures teach you a specific Truth and build from there.
May God guide your path if it is His will for you to learn His Truths at this time.
Hey John! Can you begin by pointing out to me the stuff that is purely ridiculous? I don't know what isn't in the Scriptures, but I was just theorizing based off of nothing in particular! Kinda along the lines of the little green men talk that was in this thread.
The part about us having "glorified physical bodies as angelic beings" is probably a good start. ;)
What about when Jesus answers the Sadduccees (I think): "they are neither married nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven"? I haven't done any research on this passage; it just came to mind. Forgive my ignorance!
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The whole creations awaits the unveiling of. Christ.anyone have any ideas why we have an entire physical universe that boggles the mind
It can't be there just for show
Anyone think there is other life out there?
My theory on the purpose of the cosmos is that they are the potential glory of God's elect in the form of matter. I like to think that Hawking radiation - the radiation that is emitted from black holes axially - is God transporting energy that is transmuted from matter through black hole processes. I like to think that this energy is a much a more pure form of the energy/matter dichotomy, i.e. the energy that our glorified bodies will constantly emit in the New Jerusalem.
Since no new matter or energy has been created since the Big Bang - if that even happened - I like to think that the purpose of the extensive matter realms of the universe are storehouses of the purified energy fields that we will one day contain as glorified angelic beings with physical bodies. Since heaven is eonian, the aeons we move through as a super-advanced civilization will become increasingly more tolerant of energy, as we - us as physical beings, headed by Jesus; and purely Spiritual beings like the Holy Spirit and Father - will all become more advanced and perfect as we "age". (I don't think even Father is done "growing"...I think He'll grow with us, and our growth will both increase, and be a result of, His growth) Thus, the matter of the universe will be able to be transported via Hawking radiation from black holes to our bodies as we go through this "aging" process through the aeons, and we will become more glorious! :)
Wow! Where to begin? I know you are new here. But you are the poster child for why the Scriptures are so important. They steady us and in the mouth of two or three witnesses they keep us in the Truth.
My advice. Read extensively the articles on this website and use them as an introduction to the Scriptures. Believe nothing until at least two Scriptures teach you a specific Truth and build from there.
May God guide your path if it is His will for you to learn His Truths at this time.
Hey John! Can you begin by pointing out to me the stuff that is purely ridiculous? I don't know what isn't in the Scriptures, but I was just theorizing based off of nothing in particular! Kinda along the lines of the little green men talk that was in this thread.
The part about us having "glorified physical bodies as angelic beings" is probably a good start. ;)
What about when Jesus answers the Sadduccees (I think): "they are neither married nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven"? I haven't done any research on this passage; it just came to mind. Forgive my ignorance!
1 Cor. 15: 35-50 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
There is nothing wrong with what Jesus said, He speaks the truth. It's with what you said ;)
Angelic beings... with physical bodies.
Angelic means spiritual.
Understanding the future Resurrection and Great white throne judgement might aid in this understanding. If you want the scriptures on it then search them or read through the site;
Everyone will be raised at the great white throne judgement. The elect will be raised with powerful spiritual bodies like Christ. Nothing physical to them, no flesh. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. The rest of the dead, the sea of humanity, will be raised physical and judged. Hitler won't be raised with a glorified spiritual body. The elect and Christ will judge these people at the great white throne judgement, the "thousand year reign," the few chosen, the saviors of Hosea. Through this judgement, the sea of humanity will be tried and tested and the sea will vanish. Through this judgement the rest of humanity will be saved. The saints will judge the angels and the world ;)
I'm not 100% certain here but , i believe, that after this judgement, these people will be transformed into spiritual beings like the elect and God. Then will they enter the kingdom of heaven and death shall have been destroyed. Christ will lay down His reign to His Father and God will finally be all in all.
Hope that helps and answers your question.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Alex!
I'm glad you chimed in, it just seemed awkward placement of events in the thread thats all.
Doing a little reading, I agree with what you stated in regards to Micro and Macro evolution.
I think and hope we all agree that species, given enough time, turning into another species is not a proven theory.
Like you said, even 4.6 billion years is not enough time!
Its not scriptural either.
The term evolution meaning change over time I can also agree with. We have to define that change though.
Evolution is really a misunderstood term. I try and stay away from it because of what people generally think it means.
Alex I don't doubt there are earth-like planets. Many have been discovered. (Research the Kepler Telescope Missions). What's in question is whether they support life(not every earth-like planet is habitable). You ever hear of the "sweet spot" or "goldilocks zone"!
Planets that orbit their host star in this zone possibly have liquid water on its surface.
As for the mathematical probability, the shear size of the universe is not evidence of life and we could be the only life bearing planet!
I'm fine either way.
I do wonder what God has in place that prevents or propagates life on a large scale(universal) or a small scale(our planet). The only thing I could come up with is our composition or what everything is made of. Our chemical composition is not foreign in the universe and something I know we don't have to speculate on.
Compare the chemical composition of the universe with us and we seem pretty common. But compare that chemical composition with the universe as a whole and we're only a small fraction. We have dark energy and dark matter taking up the rest. So I kind of hold onto that small fraction because I think its all we have.
Also that may prove how unique life is to our little rock! So I'm fine either way.
Hi Claudia!
from the Scriptures we find that God the Father sent His only begotten Son to the planet earth. His Seed. it doesn't mention any other planet(s) that He sent His Son to be born of His Seed. He caused it to be so on earth, using the virgin mary as the vessel.
I'm not quite sure I understand what your saying here?
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Are you saying world in this instance means the planet earth?
Earth = dry land
World = inhabitants of dry land
Is that too dumb down?? Or off?
But I will say the word “world” has a few more uses.
I enjoy this discussion as well Claudia!
I'm curious as to what the more scientific minds on the forum have to input!
Antaiwan
PS.
Telsa,
Sounds like another thread.
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With all the talk against evolution, I'll chime in and say I believe in evolution. And I believe it's scriptural too.
I don't want to teach, but I would like to provide a scriptural basis for believing in evolution. I think this will be acceptable. For a while I disagreed with Ray on evolution, but it seems he was coming around to the idea not too long before he died. Have you all seen this email?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13694.0.html
It confirmed some of the things I was seeing in Genesis. We all know the phrases "Let the earth bring forth" and "Let the waters bring forth." That sounds like evolution to me, if not abiogenesis. The phrases "after their kind" and "after his kind" sound like speciation (species evolving into other species) to me. And we know the phrase "and it was so" is more accurately translated "and it came to be so" indicating a process taking time.
Also, man is spiritually a beast. Why not physically as well? First the physical and then the spiritual. We're certainly different than animals, but I believe we are descended from beasts.
Well there's my scriptural reasoning for evolution. Scientifically, I believe there's ample evidence out there. We all believe the earth came about through 4.5 billion years of natural geologic processes, why not life as well? Some say 4.5 billion years isn't enough time, but it's plenty of time. Evolution happens faster than you think. In fact, most of evolution has only occurred in the last 540 million years. Have you heard of the Cambrian explosion? This is the start of the geologic time period known as the Cambrian when many complex life forms began to appear.
I just don't believe God was continually creating new species all throughout earth history. I believe life evolved through the natural laws he put in place.
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There is not scriptural or scientific evidence for evolution, unless you are talking about micro-evolution. There is definately changes in species to better adapt to their environments and they evolve to reflect that. But there is no evidence for macro-evolution. Horses do not become cows, or monkeys humans.
I don't understand how you get that "after his kind" or "after their kind" means evolving into another species?? Thats like telling my daughter to reproduce after her kind and she ends up producing a coyote. How is that producing after her kind?
Ray was never coming around to the idea of macro-evolution.
Craig
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I'll concede the "after their kind" point is the weakest, but I think "Let the earth bring forth living creatures...and it came to be so." makes a strong case for evolution.
Certainly you know Ray better than most, and I don't want to be the one to make him say something he didn't. But based on that email, I get the sense that he didn't totally reject evolution. Such statements like "The first couple of chapters of Genesis are written in such a way that many of the major concepts of biological evolution could be possible." and "The point is, however, regardless of how or by what processes God used in creation, He was behind all of it." He also asked the question "So did God use a process of creation that could be compared to some of the theories of biological evolution?" He didn't answer the question or even answer emphatically in the negative, which leads me to believe he at least somewhat was open to the possibility. If this isn't true, please let me know. If that's the case, I also would like to know, what am I to make of that email?
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It looks like to me that when God said "Let there be" he was planting Word seeds that brought forth exactly whatever it was that he had in mind to create.
It is true that you can cross a horse, and a donkey and get a mule. But a mule can not reproduce, as it is sterile.
There is evidence that modern man bred with Neanderthals, and that many of the worlds population have some Neanderthal DNA.
I agree with Craig on the kind, and species aspects.
Prophecy, and the wheels that go in motion in actually making a thing come to pass is really mind boggling, to God be the glory, and the power.
What I got from reading Ray's papers is; that he believed in creation as opposed to evolution only.
Joel
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antaiwan, i was meaning that Christ was born of the flesh on the planet Earth, not any of the other known (or unknown) planets of the vast universe. and in the Scripture referenced, 1 john 4:14, the word "world" is kosmos. that can denote the inhabited earth or the universe. if you look up "world" and "earth" in the greek, you will find another definition that falls under both. that is "oikoumené". under "earth" this word is translated to dwell, inhabit, and denotes the inhabited earth. it is translated "world" in every place where it has this significance (except for luke 21:26 where it is translated "earth".)
anyway, that's what i was trying to say.
claudia
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Ok JohnChris here's scripture for your question.
1 John 3:2. Which states that we will be like Him. Christ is the creator/savior of the world. In His millennial reign we rule with him righteously, teaching and learning the same. Now after that then what. We are Gods children and the only example we have for this is Christ Jesus the Son of God. He is the God of the old testament, it tells us what he has done from the foundations of the world, until (the new testament) he became a man and died for us. I was assuming that if we were to be like him that maybe that's what all the rest of the universe is for for us to do what Christ has done for us, get more children for God our Father. I was just giving my opinion, it was a thought that had crossed my mind when I read this topic. Again Gods thoughts are much higher than mine, I may be so far off the chart that this is heresy, I don't know. There are many scriptural/spiritual geniuses(compared to me by far) here that can easily disprove or prove what my thought was, and I hope someone points me in the correct direction. I apologize if I have written wrongly here; if this is wrong of me forgive me ,moderators, and remove this. But some thought would be nice too
Greg
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No worries, Gregory, at least as far as I'm concerned.
One way in which 'knowledge passes away' is when it is replaced by new and more accurate knowledge. That process is bound to continue until we have the wisdom of God. For my part, I couldn't be happier than to have my 'old knowledge' smashed and replaced with something more accurate. I ain't done yet. I see no reason to believe that my puny understandings will stay puny...and I see no reason why I shouldn't be happier and happier as it does, since that's been my experience since coming out of her in the first place.
Just me talking, but asking a few passages of scripture to explain in great detail HOW all that has preceded us came about AND what is to follow is asking too much and requiring scripture to do what it clearly was not meant to do. As Dennis said recently, we are here to learn. I don't think he meant that just about this forum. We are 'here' to learn. That's our purpose in this life.
The 'detail' about all this seen stuff past I leave to those who understand it, knowing that they are trained in methods of questioning and sussing out the facts whereas religious folk typically are not. Just to note, the very words of Scripture in Genesis don't refer to "species" at all, but to 'kingdoms' (plants and animals) and various types of animals ordered by how they MOVE. There is no mention of insects, specifically, or dolphins (which are not fish) or any other great details, such as microscopic life (which composes a remarkably large percentage of a human's 'mass' and without which we can't live).
As for the other stars, what comes to mind is the quote, "What is man that Thou aren't mindful of him?" MIGHT be extrapolated to include "what is our planet that Thou aren't mindful of it?" Everything that is 'seen' is made of that which is 'not seen'. If we ever 'see' what isn't now seen, then maybe we'll 'see' that we really do serve the Unknown God "in whom we live and move and have our being." If a baby born 5000 years ago in southeast asia is connected to me in some God-determined way, then why is it impossible that a star whose light I now see 5000 years after it was emitted is also connected to me in some God-determined way?
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Hey Dave!
I wanted to comment about what you said in regards to "species"
I disagree that the plants and animals are only defined by how they move.
We still contend with the phrase, "after his/her/their kind"
This simple phrase seems to break it down further into more categories.
For example: "every winged fowl after his kind"
Well we know that fowl is used for every animal that has wings.
But what if scripture broke it down further...
Lev 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
Lev 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
Lev 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
Lev 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
Lev 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
Lev 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
Lev 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
All the winged fowls mentioned here are birds yet they have their own kind.
There are many species of eagle, owls, and raven.
The next verses mentions the other winged fowls we know of, insects that can fly.
The point is that using the term species or kind can tell us who can mate and produce with like kind and who can't.
I guess what can help also is using the phrase in this manner:
"Computers of all kinds" There is more to that statement then meets the eye.
Supercomputers
Desktops
Servers
Laptops
Notebooks
Tablets.....
Below that we can have brands, within that different configurations and so on...
You can't put an Intel chip on a AMD motherboard or vice versa.(not withstanding new technology but hope you get the point!) ;)
These kinds do extend down to the microscopic level.
There are over millions of species of bacteria that reside in us! Crazy!
Antaiwan
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Akira, I understand what you're saying, and I overstated what I was getting at. They certainly ARE defined by how (and where) they move, but not ONLY. I'm more talking about the 'exceptions' to 'fish and fowl' rather than the rule. Dolphins and whales are not fish, but they live and move in the water. Some insects fly and others do not. Even some birds do and others don't. All of the 'fowl' listed in your quoted scripture are birds, except for bats which are mammals. I just don't look to scripture for 'details' though I think (and I think Ray made a very strong case for this) the Genesis account is an accurate overview.
I don't know how 'kinds' came to be in order for their descendants to come after...except that God said "Let the earth/waters bring forth..." and "it came to be so". I tend to believe that everything that came before (from the microscopic to the the great whales) was necesssary for what came after in the great creative plan of God, including 'species' that are now and long since extinct. As example, if the earth had not become verdant, then how were the creepers and fliers etc. supposed to live? Is it 'blasphemous' to extrapolate to apply that to everything?
God IS in control of the tiniest vibration of the smallest atom, and these make up molecules, including proteins and DNA. He makes no mistakes and not only knows the end from the beginning, but IS the end and the beginning. Without Him, NOTHING exists. That's scripture, and I absolutely believe that.
Why is it that higher creatures (including us) need micro-organisms to live? Some go so far as to say we are made up of micro-organisms (cells) which reproduce after their kind (tissues) and live and move in their places (organs). Are these the same as the higher organism of which they are a part? There's more going on here, I think, than plopping down a bird or a fish and telling it to fill the air or the waters. Apparently, even the death of a higher creature has a cellular/molecular component.
Anyway, I have sworn off 'teaching' science--a good thing, since I ain't one. :D But I'm not a theologian either, and I'm happier about that one. :D
Thanks for calling me out.
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You know this physical universe consists of many realms... it's hard for me to explain, but I'll give it a try. There is life on earth, but there are different realms to this life; there is the microscopic life forms, we can not even see it, but we know it's there and has a very necessary and important function. We cannot communicate or relate in any intelligent way with it, nor enter it's realm.
There is the realm of the insects, we can see them and they serve an important function as well, all things are interconnected. But we cannot communicate with them as they are not intelligent creatures with comprehension, as we know it. They may live out their whole life (only days, sometimes only hours) on a single tree limb and not even have awareness of the world around them.
There is a realm of plant life, I include them because they do have a life cycle. These have no awareness, but they play a necessary even vital role for higher life forms.
There is the aquatic realm, where this form of life must live in water to survive. This is a whole world unto itself, with some forms being plant like, others being insect and still others animal. We can communicate with the higher life forms there to a degree, like dolphins and whales. But we are incompatible and only enter their realm as an outsider, it is a hostile environment to us.
There is the realm of the air/atmosphere of the foul or winged creatures. Those creatures live along side us, but they are very different. We can communicate to a degree, but we certainly cannot relate intellectually and are totally incompatible in the way they live.
Then there is the realm of the mammals, but there is a distinct division here between human and animals. Both forms are aware of one another and can communicate in some ways. But only humans have real intelligence and emotions, animals live by instinct and another thing is animals do not know/understand they will die. So animals live by instinct and though we can train them, it does not make them intelligent, as humans have very different thinking than animals. Animal instincts bind them to their own kind, as human kind are bound together to their own kind and God declares it an abomination to even try to cross kinds (Lev 18:23). So there is a clearly different realm for people and animals, though we do live in close contact with the animal realm, we do not actually enter their realm, become as they are, nor they ours.
Now there is the realm of outer space, it is not a place that we can easily enter and even relate to, it is certainly hostile to us. We can enter that realm to a degree, but only with extreme measures to keep us alive. I want to think of it as more of a great art work of God. He has made the whole universe His canvas and now He has even given man inventions (telescopes) to get vivid pictures of what's out there.
Psa 19:1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse proclaims His handiwork.
What I am trying to get across is that there are many physical realms, others that I could not even think to mention, but these are domains for the different 'kinds' of life that God made for it. Man is very special that we are able to learn and know about these other realms, but most of the other domains we are very limited to enter. We were created to live on earth, as the immediate environment around it was specially designed to meet our needs. Other realms are designed for it's inhabitants.
With all these physical realms for the life in this world/universe, we also know there is a whole other kind for a different type of existence, the spiritual realm. I think we can understand it better, by comprehending all these other physical realms, that are not designed for us to enter. Some are designed so tiny, infinitesimally small, yet others are more vast then we can imagine. Now the spiritual is there, but beyond our reach as physical being. But Paul got an actual glimpse in a vision and saw things that was absolutely unexplainable.
2Co 12:4 that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to utter.
So we are in the physical realm/world for a time, getting an experience of good and evil, stage 1. But we are used to it, after all it is all we know, so we tend to cling to it. But it is not our real and final home.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
v. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
So this physical tent/body is temporary, this world and not even outer space is our goal/destination. Our hope is to move beyond this physical, to a better realm of being. We too, like Paul, are given a glimpse through the Spirit indwelling. I have confidence that the spiritual realm is as glorious as it is depicted in the Scriptures and it will exceed this physical existence as far as the heavens are above the earth.
1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, I like the way you put it all together. I even got exited about what's next!
John, you look like a scientist and talk like a scientist (like a good one), If you would say that you are a scientist I probably would belived you. Nice speech ;)
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Thanks Kat :)
that really was lovely to read as I understand things so much better when it is put in perspective like that! We all like building castles in the air, but the Scriptures says it All!
May God guide us in our learning and everyday struggles.
Jingle
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2 Peter 3:5-7 Message Bible
They conveniently forget that long ago all the galaxies and this very planet were brought into existence out of watery chaos by God’s word. Then God’s word brought the chaos back in a flood that destroyed the world. The current galaxies and earth are fuel for the final fire. God is poised, ready to speak his word again, ready to give the signal for the judgment and destruction of the desecrating skeptics.
Now we know from Ray that Noah's flood was regional, but check out the rest of the verse that talks about "The current galaxies and earth being fuel for the final fire....
Just me two cents to the discussion. Love you all, thanks for the Forum as usual, I love to read all you guys post! Grace and Peace, Kelli
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Hi Kelli,
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Yes indeed the "whole creations" is waiting for "the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom 8:22). The word 'galaxies' would be more appropriately as "heavens" I believe, as in the heavenly realm (spirit beings), as well as the earthly realm (physical being) will undergo the "fire... of judgement"
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
This is figurative langauge here, as we know that the fire this is speaking of is spiritual, not literally fire that will do away with and bring to an end the universe. We have all this symbolic wording in Scripture for there to be the deception, as Jesus said "seeing (as it's right there in the Scripture) they do not see (understand the truth)."
2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
Just thought I would add to your comment :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat and Dave. Thank you and Amen!
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Is 2 Peter 3:5-7 to be understood literally? What in the literal heavens is burnable? What would fire do to the already hot stars?
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Is 2 Peter 3:5-7 to be understood literally? What in the literal heavens is burnable? What would fire do to the already hot stars?
L. Ray Smith spoke much on this subject. Of course the literal fire burns physical things. But what does Spiritual fire burn. What are the effects? I know the answer......as do all whom our Father reveals these things.....
Fight fire with fire! Well ya that is not a physical fire huh? Nor is the lake of fire, or the fire we will all be tested with our works, or the fiery trials we will all be going through, nor is the fire we will be salted with, and the Spirit to which baptism happens, oooo and my favorite the flaming sword that guards the tree of life. Fire fire everywhere! We know the outcome of a physical fire. Spiritual fire which our Father claims he is a consuming fire! Give me this fire.