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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: insanezenmistress on September 20, 2007, 09:21:16 PM
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Do we become too intellectaul, and forget the simplicity of Christ.
Recently, after having found theses 'new revelationary' teachings i found myself eating up anything i could digest, as fast as it could be served to me. Isnt that greedy...... oh i see, we all prefere to call it, hunger for the Lord.....see the LORD gets all the attention ...ahem erm, amen.......
Really?
Jesus is pleased to see us gobble up meats, just to be eating?
I mean , at least your seeking after truth, right?
Recently i have found myself over whelmed with information, and realised i had forgotten what all my studying is FOR. I forgot it is all about knowing god, not just about him, not just the record of his sayings. But to know HIM.
I realised that the reason why people are so easilly decieved about things of the lord, is because we read so many books, and listen to so much information, and memorize rigid and calculated thought patterns with which to experience this god-thing, in just the right mannnor. Rather then to look into the Bible.
Isnt this Idolatry....oh i see, we all prefer to call it dilligence and disearnment, to rightly divide the scripture.....yadda yadda yadda....
*Sigh*
Wouldn't Jesus wish for more than that? Dont i want to experience his own voice speaking His Word, while i walk, while i pray, while i wash dishes, while i sing, while i wrestle with the kids, while i relax.......
HOW can this be done! HOW do we life with and for the Lord, and not need to keep our hunger/greed satisfied?
Humm doesnt this sound like a parable?...A woman at some well.
IN the olden zen days, a master would speak a very obscure verse.....such as......."When you are hungry, eat. When you are not hungry, dont eat."
And the proper student would go an ponder that one verse. And not return to the master untill he is satisfied with the answer...and better still he realizes that answer and thanks the master for his lesson.
We have the MASTER, and he has given us MANY verses to ponder, He is eager to tell us many answers, But like with the zen master you must need zen,you must also need truth, as you need the very air itself. Because HE IS the air you breath.
And he gives us many teachers, but test all things, test all your thoughts and voices and add knowledge to a living understanding without intellectaul obsession.....not attachment to strict form and answers but leaning on the voice of truth, Jesus Our Saviour.
Test Him, he will not change his truth. When you have learned the Mind of Christ, and have put to the cross acres of mental lands you ought to be able to look into any scripture and see truth brightly. Truth becomes your way of living......you truth , you love, you pray. The Buddha would have called it "you pick up a blade of grass and make a scripture."
Now for fun of the thread, "the faithfull" must figure out the bible verses i have alluded to during the text ( esp the hidden ones); And the readers can give the lessons and questions they have of the Lord and his teaching to them.
please forgive, if you want me to i will just shut up when i get in a preachy mood. Its all a part of ........ :P
IZM
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Hi IZM,
Ya, the message of Christ is easy.....Love. God is Love. It's the love thing that's complicated!
Like who, when, where and how to love. These are the things we need to know and study.
Peace to you, Lisa
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Thank God for the forum that allow us to post and help one another to learn. Thanks to Ray and all the moderators that make this place possible.Insane I am glad to see you on the board. It is apparent to me that your spiritual pilot is lit, and that is a good sign.Seek first to be understood,never sacrifice or risk separation from your brothers,in order to be right. We don't all grow at the same pace. Where you are now I may get there later or maybe not at all.The spirit of Cain is alive and well in all of us.We will kill our brother if we find differences between us. Thank God that we are all accepted,by doing well. Good to see you and great post.
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Greetings IZM,
Wow, I was just asking myself the same questions today.
Eccl.1:12,13 NKJV "I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this grievous task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised (or afflicted)." He goes on to speak of gnostic pride as "grasping for the wind." In the end Eccl.12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
But wait, there's more...1Cor.12:4,5 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord." ... vs.29,30,31, "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way." (LOVE)
And more...Rom.14:4 "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand."
This ties in nicely with what was spoken in the thread about Peter walking on water (If you haven't already checked it out, it's a good read). So long as we keep Jesus (our relationship with him) in focus, he will tell us what we should be doing. If the motive of our heart isn't pure, we will sink.
We must ask ourselves, what (or moreso, WHO) are we seeking, checking the motives of the heart and in what God is leading us. It is my goal then to "put on Christ."
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;)
Gregor, nice veres.......good lesson.....but, i would look into the word Gnosticism, every time i hear it it grates on my nerves, like some one missuses it. What is gnostisim, it is a study of the knowing of God. It is knowing about your personal relationship with him. And saying yes i know HIM.The bible speaks of God giving us a SPirit that crys Abba ( daddy) Father........
It seems , we think, bad things baout this nasty word gnostic.we think it mean "wise in our own imagination'.....or some preacher told 'em, gnostics drnak blood and thought they could be one with Christ.
And , is there something wrong with that theology or somethin?
You put the jesus in.....you shake the old man out
You know the Holy Spirit and He turns your soul about.
Thats that its all about!
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Thank God for the forum that allow us to post and help one another to learn. Thanks to Ray and all the moderators that make this place possible.
Insane I am glad to see you on the board. It is apparent to me that your spiritual pilot is lit, and that is a good sign.
Seek first to be understood,never sacrifice or risk separation from your brothers,in order to be right. We don't all grow at the same pace. Where you are now I may get there later or maybe not at all.
The spirit of Cain is alive and well in all of us.We will kill our brother if we find differences between us. Thank God that we are all accepted,by doing well. Good to see you and great post.
Thanky ou for your encoragement. But you are also accepted. i once asked myself what did bodhidharma think abotu for nine years.
that was the ammount of time that this great zen master dude sat at a wall.
You have not jsut question, but a few answers you wish to try out. I wish that the mods would let you..............what have you thougth about for ten years.
And the rest of you.
Have you lived in silence?......Rays teachings brought something else out of you when you first heard it.
It was famillier. Like you knew it once upon a time.
When you where yet un-indoctrinated, and saw new truth everytime you read the scripture. that is the fire of god.
surface after surface of your entire being, called to examination in HIS light and by the scruteny of his word. that is the grace of god.
you are not only learning as you grow but accimulating every lesson that came before you, including the lessons of your errors adn the weight of your sin.
is that too buddist??...............do i need to give you verses? I admire your mind's eagerness.....i am thrilled that ray has been a source of blessing, but dont lock yourself into argements that you where free from before.............
what did sonofone think about for NINE years?
who was his teacher then?
Justine
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Greetings IZM,
Gnosticism isn't a bad thing necessarily, as I did say "gnostic pride". Sorry if I ground your spirit. No intention at all. :P Remember, abbrassion is also a means to polish ;D
I guess when I use the word gnostic I'm going by a rather limited definition. Off of Dictionary.com:
4. (initial capital letter) a member of any of certain sects among the early Christians who claimed to have superior knowledge of spiritual matters, and explained the world as created by powers or agencies arising as emanations from the Godhead.
[Origin: 1555–65; < LL Gnōsticī (pl.) name of the sect < Gk gnōstikós (sing.) pertaining to knowledge, equiv. to gnōst(ós) known + -ikos -ic]
The words that grind my spirit are "superior knowledge" and "sect". The first gives me the connotation of a spiritual pride, (which I've been guilty of) and the second makes me leary, as Jesus forbids sectarianism in Mark 9:38-41. According to Eccl.1:18, "For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." I take this as an oxymoron. I'm sure partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil definately increased sorrow, but if one's gifting is teaching, then knowledge is essential. Eccl. 12:12, "...of making many books there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh." I agree that knowing God and our relationship in/with Him is of utmost importance. Peace.
G.
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;)
no SOlomon had it spot on..........in much knowledge there IS much sorrow, esp after the tree of knolwedge, because now a person has a lot farther to fall. Alot more to confuse.....whats that verse, about "be ye not many masters and teachers for they recieve the greater condemnation."
when a "teacher" gets something askew, not only does he go back and challenge what he knows, but his students can be tossed into .....into much tribulation.
yes thats it, the word gnostic denotes a group of people who "claimed to have superiour knowledge".....By that Definition Paul was a gnostic. Gnostic it a method of knowledge, it is not nessacarilly superiour, it is not the Only. Now to say that, in that knowledge, they are more saved, there is a problem...........
There is the gnostic pride. and that is bad juju. SOlomon knows that any knowledge can increase pride, and pride can lead to error. The bible warns us to always be teachable in our spirits. Much knowledge mingled with much pride makes many blind, and increases sorrow.
Solomon also knew that humans are bound to this, we need our Redeemer. So he condludes the whole matter. SO you dont need his gnosis, you need the gnosis in the fear of the Lord.
I guess, i think gnostisism mean "method of knowledge" and the group of people who practiced it in the mystery cults, where merely practiceing relying on the holy spirit. I would bet that it was jelouse people who said "hurmph, those people think they have superiour knowledge" If Gnosis is knowledge applied, then Gnostisism would be studying the lessons received by that application. And the cult would be a bunch of followers trying to get those lessons applied. And the pride.........
Well the pride would be the sin of us ALL.
PS you personally did not grate on my spirit. it is the way the word gnostic has been used in christian theology. I have seen the flip side of that and know the word merely means knowledge. There is no knowledge cult, and people who DO KNOW.........definately DO NOT go about bragging on their superiour knowledge, they merely know how all the more completely they are but flesh, and need their redeemer.
Justine
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Hi G and IZM,
My understanding of the early gnostics is that they believed the Demiurge is the god of the old testament...and not Jesus Christ. They also believed that the Holy Spirit is feminine form as in Sophia, wisdom. Food for thought.
Peace and Love, Lisa
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Food for thought.
Peace and Love, Lisa
I cant say i disagree with the Holy SPirit being a female form. Shikina, wisdom crys out in the streets in Proverbs........As for the name of their gods, not being Jesus, i cant tell ya. we are a bit divorced from jsut what they where.
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Justine,
Yes, our life now is in the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Gotta go and get the chitlens off to school....have a great day. :)
Lisa
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Insane it's like you have spiritual radar girl!! I was just thinking yesterday, that for ten tears I sat in silence. I had to have learned something. You were also right about Ray, he merely witnessed to what God had already revealed to me some ten years ago/ I actually thought for that space of time like Elijah,that I was the only one.You are right about the answers as well, I just respect the forum and realize that this is not the time or format to try out my thoughts so to speak. So for now I try to learn.I am just so encourage by what I see from you when I read your post. I sense the gift the gift that God has placed within you,and the confidence that is growing in you as well. Confidence is the key word that God is dealing with me now about myself/
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Hi G and IZM,
My understanding of the early gnostics is that they believed the Demiurge is the god of the old testament...and not Jesus Christ. They also believed that the Holy Spirit is feminine form as in Sophia, wisdom. Food for thought.
Peace and Love, Lisa
Hello Everyone,
Here is a Scriptural description of the Holy Spirit from;
Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
The "Holy Spirit"
Does no one think it strange that in all these pages of Scriptures the "holy spirit" was not even mentioned so much as once? If the holy spirit is an EQUAL to the Father and Son, it sure seems it is being shortchanged in all these profound Scriptures. Could it be that just as Jesus is the Son "of" God and not God Himself, that the holy spirit is the spirit "of" God and not God Himself? Yes, that is what the Scriptures clearly teach. We have the Son "of" God and the spirit "of" God and yet God is "of" NO ONE!! Is there anyone who wishes to challenge this? God Almighty is out of NO ONE! God Almighty is of NO ONE!
Let it be known: NONE of these Scriptures take away from the glories of God’s grandest achievements in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. His name is now and will forever be ABOVE ALL ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE! AMEN!
Here is the main Scripture used by Trinitarians to try and make people believe that God is a trinity:
"Going, then, disciple all nations baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit [Authorized, ghost]..." (Mat. 28:19).
And how does this verse prove that God is a three-in-one trinity? I DON’T KNOW! It certainly doesn’t say that these three form ONE GOD. Or that these three are coequal with one another. They are just all three mentioned in one verse, that’s all.
The mention of the "holy spirit" in this verse no more proves that the holy spirit is the third God part of a trinity than the mention of "the Comforter" in John 15:26 proves that it is the fourth God part of a quartet, or the mention of "the spirit of Truth" in this same verse in the fifth God part of a quintet! But why stop here. If we look for phrases such as "the holy spirit" being representative of some kind of personal being of a multi-person Godhead, we can find a plethora of "gods."
Let’s count them
God
The Father
The Highest
The Holy Ghost
The Holy Spirit
The Spirit of God
The Spirit of Christ
Jesus Christ
The Son of God. We are now up to a TRIPLE trinity.
The Mediator
The Mind of God
The Spirit of truth. Now we have a quartet of trinities
The Word was God
And to these we could add "The SEVEN Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5), etc., etc.
We are now up to twenty potential coequal candidates for this so-called triune godhead. Clearly, God is NOT a trinity or a collection of trinities. By the way, "Godhead" is not a proper translation of any Greek word, it should be translated "Deity" or "Divinity."
No matter how many different spirits there are, one thing is certain: ALL SPIRITS ARE IN SUBJECTION TO THE FATHER--NONE ARE EQUAL TO OR WITH THE FATHER, because we have Scriptural proof that God is superior to all spirits, seeing that:
"Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the FATHER OF SPIRITS..." (Heb. 12:9)
To him who has an ear to hear; let him hear!
No, there are NOT twenty members of a coequal godhead. Not ten or even five. There are not even three or two.
"...there is ONE God, the FATHER..." (I Cor. 8:6)
WHO, OR WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7:
"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you."
Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn’t you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."
Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." (John 16:13-15).
This is not hard to understand. The spirit of Truth is Christ. The comforter is Christ. The spirit will be speaking TO the disciples THROUGH Christ’s spirit which is His because the Father gave this spirit TO HIM! There’s no trinity here.
Jesus said:
"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).
Now notice how clear Jesus makes this. Who or What is this spirit, holy spirit, holy ghost, spirit of truth, comforter? Is it really the third person of a triune God? Let Jesus Himself answer:
"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).
"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).
"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).
JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!
In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"
HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE "PARAKLEETOS!"
Isn’t is just amazing what we can learn when we just read and truth of God’s Word instead of the strange and unscriptural teaching of theologians?
No, God is not a trinity. Yes, God is a family. We can be members (Sons) of His Family, Brothers with Christ. What a marvelous plan God is bring about. Here then is the Gospel to all nations and all peoples everywhere:
"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus Christ], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, THUS ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified [given immortal life]. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to HIS GOD AND FATHER, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power... The last enemy is being abolished: DEATH... then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:21-28).
WHO, OR WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7:
"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you."
Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn’t you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."
Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." (John 16:13-15).
This is not hard to understand. The spirit of Truth is Christ. The comforter is Christ. The spirit will be speaking TO the disciples THROUGH Christ’s spirit which is His because the Father gave this spirit TO HIM! There’s no trinity here.
Jesus said:
"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).
Now notice how clear Jesus makes this. Who or What is this spirit, holy spirit, holy ghost, spirit of truth, comforter? Is it really the third person of a triune God? Let Jesus Himself answer:
"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).
"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).
"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).
JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!
In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"
HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE "PARAKLEETOS!"
Isn’t is just amazing what we can learn when we just read and truth of God’s Word instead of the strange and unscriptural teaching of theologians?
No, God is not a trinity. Yes, God is a family. We can be members (Sons) of His Family, Brothers with Christ. What a marvelous plan God is bring about. Here then is the Gospel to all nations and all peoples everywhere:
"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus Christ], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, THUS ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified [given immortal life]. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to HIS GOD AND FATHER, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power... The last enemy is being abolished: DEATH... then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:21-28).
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi G and IZM,
My understanding of the early gnostics is that they believed the Demiurge is the god of the old testament...and not Jesus Christ.
Hi Lisa,
I am fairly familiar with some of the Gnostic doctrines and although some of it is compelling it does not meet the standard written of by Isaiah;
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Here is what the Lord of the Old Testament and Jesus (One and the same) had to say;
Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus Christ is the "I AM" of the OT.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joe,
welll, i dont know about all that.... but it seems, the Bible speaks of God the spirit of wisdom and god the spirit of truth, and god the comforter, in feminine terms. we know god is sexless and ageless. so YES the Son is the father and the jewish praise is "Hear oh Israel, that the LORD your GOD is ONE." and the spirit we receive and will receive, this comforter, that we call the holy spirit, this is Jesus, the spirit of truth.
Fine not a trinity......but definatly a person, and offtain spoken of in feminine terms.... Shekinah glory, Elohiem, that name is neither male nor female but denotes BOTH. God created us male and female, after his likeness. alot of argument can make something of this notion.
But it is irrelivant jangleing of the mind. Wisdom is what wisdom does, it is not female or male but Spirit. No words can discribe it.
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Dear Joe,
Thank you for your concern for me brother. :) No worries. God is the Father. Jesus is the Son. And the Holy Spirit is of God. That is my understanding. I do not believe in the trinity the way the churches teach. So rest asssured.
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also, after ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Peace and Love and His Wisdom to you,
Lisa
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Hi Lisa,
You are welcome and I thank you for your response, my biggest concern was what could be read into some of the things that were written in this thread. It is not my or any moderator's desire to stifle digging deeper into the understanding spiritual things but we also want to be clear in using the Scriptures as the measure, the Word is the Rock, it is our foundation.
It is for the benefit of our newer members and guests that we attempt to clarify some of the statements that may confuse or seem to contradict the Scriptures and the articles on Bible Truths. Scriptural challenges (2 witnesses) to the articles are never discouraged though.
The realization that Jesus is Yahweh the God of Israel in the Old Testament is a new concept for many who are new here, I only wanted to underline that bit of wisdom, it was not to challenge or call into question what your beliefs are in regard to this.
Thank you again for taking this in the spirit that was intended.
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
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It is for the benefit of our newer members and guests that we attempt to clarify some of the statements that may confuse or seem to contradict the Scriptures and the articles on Bible Truths. Scriptural challenges (2 witnesses) to the articles are never discouraged though.
The realization that Jesus is Yahweh the God of Israel in the Old Testament is a new concept for many who are new here, I only wanted to underline that bit of wisdom, it was not to challenge or call into question what your beliefs are in regard to this.
Thank you again for taking this in the spirit that was intended.
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
*bows*
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Joe,
welll, i dont know about all that.... but it seems, the Bible speaks of God the spirit of wisdom and god the spirit of truth, and god the comforter, in feminine terms. we know god is sexless and ageless. so YES the Son is the father and the jewish praise is "Hear oh Israel, that the LORD your GOD is ONE." and the spirit we receive and will receive, this comforter, that we call the holy spirit, this is Jesus, the spirit of truth.
Fine not a trinity......but definatly a person, and offtain spoken of in feminine terms.... Shekinah glory, Elohiem, that name is neither male nor female but denotes BOTH. God created us male and female, after his likeness. alot of argument can make something of this notion.
But it is irrelivant jangleing of the mind. Wisdom is what wisdom does, it is not female or male but Spirit. No words can discribe it.
I agree that God is Spirit with attributes of the male and female but being neither, as the angels (who are spirit) are neither male or female.
Your post does raise a couple questions though, when you state the Son is the Father are you saying that they are the very same entity?
Where in Scripture is God referred to as a "person?"
The following is also from the "Trinity" paper;
"God is a TRINITY" we have been told by the world’s leading theologians. That is, "God" is composed of THREE PERSONS. They are:
God the Father
The Holy Ghost [Spirit]
Christ Jesus the Son of God.
With just the above statement (which is accurate according to Christian teaching) we already have several unscriptural problems!
Learn something important and profound: Whenever someone tries to teach you a doctrine that is UNscriptural, he will always be forced to use words that are unscriptural.
First of all, nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
Second, the word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
Third, God is never called or referred to as "a person."
Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."
Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I dont want to lead anyones thinking.
I found the topic of gnostisium interesting and really wanted to know more about it. Joe when you said that you knew alot abotu that doctrine, i was excited to glean form your learning.
I had my take and wanted yours. And i do not quote the scripture with chapter and verse and i am endevering to do that more.
i accept your words in the spirit intended.
what i want is a conversation, to seek those witnesses. I do ramble on and try to make points, and i WANT someone to correct me, jeremiah tells us our hearts are despratly wicked. ( insert chapter and verse here ;D )
.............where in the bible is God refered to as a person.....I will quest for that answer. I do not know at this time.
.............When i say that Jesus is the father do i mean that they are the same entity? ........
The Father has Greater Glory than the Son, the son is his glory in a form he can give to us. It is the same glory, two forms. Because of that, i can say yes, and i can say no. Seprate yet of equal stuff.
as to the first question. Doesnt god refer to Himself? His name is IAM. persons say i am. but i will be still on the debate and search for direct scripture.
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Dear Justine,
I am so sorry if I confused you. If I may, the gospel according to St. John is a great place to search scriptures for this topic.
Peace and Love, Lisa
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Dear Justine,
I am so sorry if I confused you. If I may, the gospel according to St. John is a great place to search scriptures for this topic.
Peace and Love, Lisa
Lisa, you didnt.
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Here is an excerpt from the Mobile conference transcript, that I think fits in to what is being discussed here.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27960.html#msg27960
So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish. The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.
Now this is what the scripture say, we are in God and God is in us. So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair. God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.
God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can’t see Him, not literally. We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our intermost being.
The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God. I’m trying to help you right now, to see God. So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn’t, when you walked in here. If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.
God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!
What did Jesus say when He left His apostles and vanished out of their sight.
He said, “all power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth,” (Matt. 28:18).
That’s why He has come, He’s not the Father, but He’s God and He possesses all power in heaven and earth. By being the One, who possesses all power in heaven and earth, He is God. He didn’t have all power in heaven and earth from all eternity, it was given to Him. One God, everything is out of that God. We’re in Him and He’s in us, because He’s Spirit. Not a Spirit, in some geographical location. The reason God knows everything, is in all places at all times, is because that’s where He is. He’s Spirit and He refers to Himself as Spirit. My Spirit is here, there and everywhere.
David was inspired to write, where can I go to get away from you God, up to heaven, down to sheol, (Psalms 139:7-12).
There’s no place I can go, where you are not. Why? God is Spirit, God is not a man, get that out of your head. He (God) tells us that, God is not a man, Jesus Christ is a man.
Where is God? EVERYWHERE!
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From audio 1
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.1.mp3
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
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:D no contest.
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I dont want to lead anyones thinking.
We are all here to learn together Sister, it is very gratifying that we can work through this process without ego and emotions cluttering up our paths. I greatly appreciate this!
I found the topic of gnostisium interesting and really wanted to know more about it. Joe when you said that you knew alot abotu that doctrine, i was excited to glean form your learning.
I will PM you in regard to this, like I said before it has some compelling ideas but I do think it is very much in error, I do not have an issue in exploring other doctrines (personally I do it myself) but I will keep the Scriptures close to my heart as I read so as not to become of a muddled mind. :P Always remembering Isaiah 8:20. ;)
I had my take and wanted yours. And i do not quote the scripture with chapter and verse and i am endevering to do that more.
Downloading E-Sword is a great help as is; http://www.biblegateway.com/
i accept your words in the spirit intended.
Thank you once again! ;D
what i want is a conversation, to seek those witnesses. I do ramble on and try to make points, and i WANT someone to correct me, jeremiah tells us our hearts are despratly wicked. ( insert chapter and verse here ;D )
Since you asked..... Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
.............where in the bible is God refered to as a person.....I will quest for that answer. I do not know at this time.
Here is Strongs Hebrew definition although more than one Hebrew word is tranlated into "person" some of them for no apparent reason.
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
.............When i say that Jesus is the father do i mean that they are the same entity? ........
The Father has Greater Glory than the Son, the son is his glory in a form he can give to us. It is the same glory, two forms. Because of that, i can say yes, and i can say no. Seprate yet of equal stuff.
Jesus is God, but He defers to the Father, He came out of the Father and the Father is greater than He, all Jesus has the Father gave Him. The trinity article really explains this perfectly. The term "God" is an office, a title, not a name. The President and the Vice President are both of the Executive Branch but the authority of the Vice President never is equal to or superior to the President. The Vice President serves the President. But they are both of the Executive Branch, the Vice President does not lie when he claims Executive status, but he is not equal to the President.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father and am come into the world: again, I leave the world and go to the Father.
as to the first question. Doesnt god refer to Himself? His name is IAM. persons say i am. but i will be still on the debate and search for direct scripture.
You are right God is the "I AM" and declares Himself to His creation although He does not claim to be a person (nephesh), He is greater than any mortal (which is a part of the Hebrew definition of nephesh) man or woman.
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Job 33:12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Thanks Kat!
That article explains it so much better.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Happy for you Justine,
to learn along with Joe as guide for questions you put forth.... he is good guy. Plus from hanging around at Da Forum... he is good teacher to complement Ray.
As you recalled... ta-da... :) [here is the scripture you sited in parapharsed form]:
James 3: 1-2 Don't be in any rush to become a teacher, my friends. Teaching is highly responsible work. Teachers are held to the strictest standards. And none of us is perfectly qualified. We get it wrong nearly every time we open our mouths. If you could find someone whose speech was perfectly true, you'd have a perfect person, in perfect control of life. [MSG]
So Justine... it's good you make pivotal points from which we all learn, and so good you have been given to seek to learn from good teachers.
I'm very happy you are a forum friend! I appreciate you!
Janice
P.S. Simple way to look up key words in KJV: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/
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:-X Janice, thank you ( i hope thats the little blushy face.)
I am increasingly afraid of getting kicked out of here. But i figure bettter let these people know who i am.....this is one place i dont have to be a hypocrite...........yet i am anyway, i think a good game but my practice is not all the time up to par. I preach to myself ...lol.........lately my lesson has been "let go of the intllectaull clinging, knowledge is not salvation..........washing dishes in the Lord is."
bewteen these discussions and the one about the taser kid, i am seeing a bleak world horizion. and i am even more stressed to get with the personal relyance on the inner working of the Lord.
What if........What if , some day , all freedom is taken from us. how will we live your faith then? it must be something we have grown up and nurtured and grafted into our very breathing, the living in the Spirit.
but agian that is a side bar.
I see we got way off the Life lessons, and skimmed over gnosticism, and landed on the Trinity....er.the duality.....er......the GOD. Great we have defined him.
Now....in the event of Tribulation ( a wise man once said prepare for the worse and hope for the best) can we, do we, have sustaining faith? Do we have living faith, can each of us, live with and within the LORD in a concentration camp?
Tough thing to think about. Perhaps a little radical.
But better faith than sorry.
this comment is not ment to lad us into another sid ebar , teaching that the tribulation is already in our lives. Thats a fine teaching, and i hope there will be no terrible times.... But our country seems to be going another way.
Nations change, even christians in theses nations suffer real tribulation.
I am all for trusting god, and hopeing we got the interpretations correct. but it does not liberate us form the "tribulation" of a Nation Falling.
my only point is grow up, get to know the voice of the Lord without question, FIND your Wisdom, in all your getting GET understanding. (proverbs) When their are no more books, where will your faith be?
Sorry about the negitive note, ( not really) this thread in my idea is to share with each other the lessons we know, to confirm with one another wether we are in the faith, and learning form the same Holy SPirit. In the after life........( that is in a time of tyrrany) By this shal lwe be known of each other........that we Love the Lord.
Justine
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Insane, I'm no moderator,so I can't say this with certainty. I don't believe it's so much about what you say here,but your overall spirit or purpose in posting that might warrant you getting kicked out. I don't think you have to be a Ray parrot in order to stay here. I do believe that you have to hold yourself subject to the rules of the forum.After all this forum was setup for those who aspire to grow and learn due in large part to the teachings of Ray. I don't consider myself to be a Ray clone, not suggesting that anyone else is. I do however respect his teachings and more importantly his efforts to both dig and make available his results of that digging for any one to either learn or challenge or disprove. So I think you are fine Insane,wether you are right or wrong in telling what you believe you cause us to dig and I've seen you submitt your reasoning to what is true even in this very same post. So please continue to do what you do I look forward to hearing you.
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Hi Justine,
Yes this life is full of 'what ifs,' But are those needless worries? Those what ifs may never come to pass and the worry we had about them is useless.
Luke 10:41 And Jesus answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things.
v. 42 But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her."
It may be so that there will be dire things to come on this world before the return of Christ. But it is all the purpose and plan of God, what better place to be than in His loving care.
Mat 6:25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
v. 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
v. 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
v. 28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
v. 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
v. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
v. 31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?' or "What shall we drink?' or "What shall we wear?'
v. 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
v. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
v. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. Thanks for the KJV word search link Janice, I'll put it in with the other Bible helps info :)
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Hi Justine,
I believe God has each of us exactly where He wants us. Some of us are are going through tribulation, some desire more knowledge, some are basking in the love and peace of God, some are struggling, some are outspoken, some quiet. Different personalities, various temperaments and gifts. It's all wonderful.
You say:
Nations change, even christians in theses nations suffer real tribulation.
I am all for trusting god, and hopeing we got the interpretations correct. but it does not liberate us form the "tribulation" of a Nation Falling.
We will all go through tribulation at some point, and God teaches us to rely on Him during these times. Whether it is a personal trial in our own lives, or if it is an immense national catastrophe, we will endure in Him. Our heavenly Father keeps us safe, so as per Kat's post, there is no need to worry.
We may not even have the correct interpretations about everything. Who really does? How did those chosen of God in the Dark Ages endure? How much knowledge did they actually have when "the church" tried to keep them in the dark? Yet somehow, they did go on, and they were the chosen, and God took care of them. I'm so thankful that He can do anything. He is totally awesome!
Thank you for your honesty in your post. You are who God made you and you are precious.
Love,
Ursula
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Hi Gregor,
I sincerely apologize as I removed your post by mistake, I clicked "remove" instead of "reply" and even clicked to verify, that is what I get for being in a hurry.
But in response to your observation about "do not worry" having a spiritual meaning rather than a physical I say, how about both?
It is written not to murder, Jesus says do not hate, if we do not hate we are less likely to murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery, Jesus says do not lust, if we do not lust we are less likely to commit adultery.
If we are temperate in all things we will live accordingly so by following His spiritual laws we shall be better equipped to do well in the physical world.
I believe these verses testify to that;
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
There is a difference between faith and being presumptuous, if we wake up in the morning and faithfully do what is required to provide for our families we are doing well in His eyes, if instead we turn off the alarm clock roll over and go back to sleep missing work and justify our actions by saying I am faithfully trusting in the Lord, we are not fooling anyone, especially Him.
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
So I agree we must use our physical labor to provide where we can but to stress over things outside our control, what is the use?
Are there any verses in the NT that deal with the apostles complaining about Rome or what they should do about Rome's iron clad rule over Israel, did they not faithfully go about the business of God depending on Him to provide when and where it was outside their own power to do anything to overcome the circumstances they faced?
On another note we often try to limit or too narrowly define some Scripture with the words either, or, only, physical, literal, spiritual, etc. when in fact His Word is so much more powerful than that, much of the Word is deeper and more textured than we can truly grasp. Seeking the spiritual though does pay dividends in the physical as well, our spiritual fruits of the spirit should manifest themselves as we are still in the flesh or else it is all just empty words.
Again, I am truly sorry for deleting your post, it was not intentional, just a result of being in too much haste.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Thanks for the reply Joe, I was wondering what happened to my post. In any case, I agree with what you said. I think that the meanings of scripture are both literal in some ways and figurative in others. Or both at the same time. I also think that even without the deeper meanings we are able to "love one another." Simple, yet challenging. God is good. God is sovereign and it is a pleasure to be able to discuss and learn here in this forum. Thanks to all for the input/edification. May we all continue to grow.
Your brother in Christ,
G.
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Hello Gregor
You say : I think that the meanings of scripture are both literal in some ways and figurative in others.
I see this as Absolute and Relative. Ray has identified this concept in one of his teachings that was quintessential for me in my path to learning to understand the Word of God. As Ray says :
.....there is a little more to the mysteries of God than meet the eyes.....http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2252.0.html
You observe : God is good. God is sovereign and it is a pleasure to be able to discuss and learn here in this forum.
I believe that is part of why we are here to encourage one another to integrate the Truth we have received through discussion encouragement and exhortation as that Truth becomes part of our lives, thoughts and being.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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I believe that is part of why we are here to encourage one another to integrate the Truth we have received through discussion encouragement and exhortation as that Truth becomes part of our lives, thoughts and being.
AMEN to that Arcturus!
Gregor,
Thank you for your response, even though we can experience some bumps in the road here at the Forum I am so thankful we have a place to learn, share and grow together. Developing patience is also a bi product albeit a very important part of enduring through some of the more difficult moments.
I thank God for all of my Brothers and Sisters here.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe