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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lauriellen on July 22, 2015, 10:08:23 PM
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Ray taught us to pay attention to ALL the words....I was studying and 'saw' something that I hadn't considered before...and I wondered if Ray ever talked about this subject? Here is the passage:
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
What I hadn't considered before is that this sounds like a promise, with a second witness in Joel, both stating that the spirit of God will be poured out on ALL flesh *BEFORE* the day of the Lord comes. It was also brought to my attention that the first Pentecost when God poured His spirit out on Jesus' followers was just a small sample of how it will be in the 'latter days'. I have never noticed the *BEFORE* until it was brought to my attention and have never heard anyone teach this would happen before the second coming.
My question is, did Ray ever address this and if so, can someone point that out to me?
Thanks, Lauriellen
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Hi lauriellen, here is where Ray on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5815.0 ----
DISCIPLES THOUGHT JESUS WOULD COME IN THEIR LIFETIME
I Thess. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Paul said, “we who are alive and remain.” Now you could say he’s just saying “we,” whoever the we are at that time of His coming. But no, it sounds like he’s saying, we right now here. Those of us that are alive until His coming, we won’t actually go to sleep we’ll just be changed. You know, he’ll come and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we will rise to meet the Lord in the air.
I Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep…
Paul thought Christ would come before he would go to sleep(die).
v. 53 …but we shall all be changed,
v. 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
Like He is coming soon, just be patient and hang in there.
Joel 2:28 And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; your old men shall dream dreams; your young men shall see visions.
v. 29 And also I will pour out My Spirit on the slaves and on the slave women in those days.
v. 30 And I will show wonders in the heavens, and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
v. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah.
Acts 2:15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
v. 16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
v. 17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
Peter thought, well this is the last days. Now he was right, he was inspired to write that because God did start pouring out His Spirit on Pentecost... so that was the last days. How long do the last days last? Until they are over. It’s been a pretty long time. But he didn’t finish the prophecy, he quoted Joel, but he didn’t finish all of Joel. Because it doesn’t all fit then. But the portion that he did quote, it does fit then.
You say, ‘but didn’t it mention heavenly signs.’ He said, you know these people aren’t drunk. These people are like the people that prophesied in Joel, where it says they shall dream dreams and see visions, all of that. The sun shall not give it’s light and the moon shall turn to blood.
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
Did that happen on Pentecost? Yes it did! How so? How did the sun not give it’s light? How did the moon instead of reflecting light, turn to blood?
Light is symbolic of God’s Truth. Jesus Christ is the light. The brightest physical symbol of light, brightness, this is our sun. So light comes from the strongest source. God - Jesus Christ is that light.
John the Baptist said, “that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,” (John 3:19). But He was that light. The Son gives light, that’s direct revelation from God.
Now the moon is the reflected light. That should come through the church and through the ministry. They get it from the Son. The moon (church) reflects it’s light from the Son (Christ), it doesn’t have it’s own light (Truth). If the sun went out, the moon would go out, because the moon has no light, it’s reflected light.
So as the ministry gets light, they give it to the congregation, they feed the sheep.
But what did He say would happen, starting on Pentecost? The sun/Son isn’t going to give it’s light anymore. God is not going to give direct light to the people anymore. The light that should be coming, that was already given to the moon, to be reflected, now it’s not going to give it’s light. It’s going to be turned to blood. What is this talking about?
Their revelation from God was going to cease. Apostasy is going to set in. The church is going to go amuck and instead of teaching the light from God and passing it on, they are going to turn to blood. How so?
Well on that very day they stoned Stephen (Acts 7). Instead of giving light to the world as a secondary light, they turned to blood. They turned murderers.
Tomorrow we are going to go through and see how many men, who wanted to present God’s Word to everyday people like us, they had to pay with their lives. Well who would do such a dastardly thing? The moon! The secondary light of God’s Truth - the church - the Popes - the Bishops. If you even had…. you didn’t have to teach it or even read it, if you were found with a copy of Tyndale’s Bible, you were put to death. I mean it was pretty bad.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Sure do miss Ray and his clarity in presenting the Scriptures.
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Joel 2:28 And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh.....v. 31 ..... before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.....Act 2:20 .... before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
I understand what Ray was saying and his point about the signs and symbolic meanings were/are fulfilled in each generation. I guess my question is directed specifically to the portion concerning the statement by God that He would pour out His spirit on
****ALL FLESH*****BEFORE***** the day of the Lord. Does the ''all'' in these declarations really mean ''all''? Ray said that God 'began' to pour out His spirit on Pentecost, but will there be a time before the day of the Lord when God will literally pour out His spirit on ALL FLESH? It just seems to me to be a pretty direct statement?
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Joel 2:28 And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh.....v. 31 ..... before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.....Act 2:20 .... before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
I understand what Ray was saying and his point about the signs and symbolic meanings were/are fulfilled in each generation. I guess my question is directed specifically to the portion concerning the statement by God that He would pour out His spirit on
****ALL FLESH*****BEFORE***** the day of the Lord. Does the ''all'' in these declarations really mean ''all''? Ray said that God 'began' to pour out His spirit on Pentecost, but will there be a time before the day of the Lord when God will literally pour out His spirit on ALL FLESH? It just seems to me to be a pretty direct statement?
Lauriellen,
It says God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh in the last days. That is true. But the last days will not be over until the ages to come.
It says that the Sun will be darkened and the moon will turn to blood (all symbolically) before the Day of the Lord.
It does not say that His Spirit will be poured out before the Day of the Lord, but in the last days.
The Day of the Lord and the last days are not the same things.
Have you telescoped everything together possibly? And that has caused some confusion?
That is why no one Scripture is its own interpretation. One Scripture can be misunderstood.
That is why two Scriptures are needed. For the last days and the Day of the Lord to be the same thing, we will need two Scriptures to prove that.
Take care,
John
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Im not sure if I see "the Day" as a literal day,In fact I don't...I see this as a metaphor,like "at the time I visit you" your day may not be my day...
I do not believe the day of the Lord is a literal day but, be sure, it will be coming.
Gen 1:3 And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light.
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Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:
v. 17 "And it shall be in the last days, says God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
v. 18 And in those days I will pour out My Spirit upon My slaves and My slave women, and they shall prophesy.
v. 19 And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miracles on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
Hi lauriellen, all of this that Peter is saying, from the prophet Joel, is speaking of what is to happen when Christ returns in the next age, all of Joel chapter 2 is speaking of the next age. The Apostles thought, as Ray had said, they expected it to happen soon, in their lifetime, so Peter is showing them what he thinks is about to happen. Joel is speaking all this about the next age, but notice this is a new sentence a different thought he brings up in verse 20.
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious Day of the Lord.
The prophet said precisely that right there he is speaking of "before that great and glorious Day of the Lord." All that he had been speaking of up until that point was about the next age, but he clearly states that this particular thought is about what happens "before" all this, and is the symbolism of the sun and moon in this age. But first he was speaking about "the last days," which is the next age, that we can see from other Scripture.
Isa 2:2 And it shall be, in the last days the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it.
v. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
v. 4 And He shall judge among the nations...
Micah 4:1 But it shall be in the last days the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it.
v. 2 And many nations shall come and say, Come and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths; for the Law shall go forth out of Zion, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. (this whole chapter is speaking of the next age)
In both those Scripture it shows that what Joel is speaking of is about "the last days" or the next age.
But sometimes the 'last days' that is spoken of in the NT, does mean the end of this present age, so in reading Scripture it has to be discerned which is being spoken of. Then Joel continues on about the next age in the rest of the chapter and Peter has this verse as his last quote from Joel.
Acts 2:21 And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Hope this is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks for all the input. Kat, those verses made it very plain that the term 'last days' can refer to the time after Jesus returns or during the thousand year reign. What threw me is that by reading the verses in the context and flow, it does appear to be saying that these things happen BEFORE the second coming of Jesus. I thought from reading other versus that use the term 'all flesh', that it does indeed mean 'ALL flesh'.....so I couldn't understand how it could be something that would happen before the return and reign of Christ that the spirit of God would be poured out on all people. It would be a wonderful thing for sure, but I had always understood that it would be something that would happen later at the end of the ages.
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Micah 4:1 But it shall be in the last days the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it.
v. 2 And many nations shall come and say, Come and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob. And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths; for the Law shall go forth out of Zion, and the Word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
Not to argue but if the Micah verses are speaking about worshipping God in a mountain in the next age, what does this mean:
7 A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8(For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.)
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water?
12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.”
13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’;
18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.”
19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
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Thanks for all the input. Kat, those verses made it very plain that the term 'last days' can refer to the time after Jesus returns or during the thousand year reign. What threw me is that by reading the verses in the context and flow, it does appear to be saying that these things happen BEFORE the second coming of Jesus. I thought from reading other versus that use the term 'all flesh', that it does indeed mean 'ALL flesh'.....so I couldn't understand how it could be something that would happen before the return and reign of Christ that the spirit of God would be poured out on all people. It would be a wonderful thing for sure, but I had always understood that it would be something that would happen later at the end of the ages.
lauriellen, Only the verse that Joel says "before" is speaking of before the next age, all the rest of that chapter is speaking about the next age.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah.
It seems Joel just kind of stuck that in there, about what will happen in this age "before" all that he is saying about the next age. And yes where it says "I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh," that is certainly speaking about the next age when Christ rules.
Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come with a strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked places shall be made level, and the rough places smooth;
v. 5 and the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Jehovah has spoken.
Hi Gina, where in says in Micah "the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains," I believe that is speaking of God's government ruling over all "the mountains" of the whole world. The verse in Isaiah also says God's house/government will be on the top of the "mountains" as well.
Isa 2:2 And it shall be, in the last days the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established in the top of the mountains...
But where Jesus was speaking to the woman at the well, He says "the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth," this is speaking of only the chosen elect now in this age. The rest will later in the next age, as it says in Joel "I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh."
I think learning to notice those little details makes a big difference.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes, I see what you're saying. That does make a lot of sense. Thanks.
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I think this is very fascinating because it deals with what happens after the last days and after He hands over the Kingdom to the Father:
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Enemy #1 -- Dominion definition: supremacy, ascendancy, dominance, domination, superiority, predominance, preeminence, hegemony, authority, mastery, control, command, power, sway, rule, government, jurisdiction, sovereignty
Enemy #2 --Authority definition: the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience
Enemy #3 --Power definition: the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events
Enemy #4 -- Death definition: Self-explanatory.
So all these things are in the world right now and in Jesus Reign in the age to come (government, rule, power, authority, dominion, rule.... did I mention power and authority and government?) and will continue till the end, when it will all be destroyed!
Wow!
Once it is all destroyed there will be no more way for anyone to ever be over or under anyone else or anything else ever again because God will be all in all.
Oh glory days! Come Lord, Jesus - let's get this show on the road!
:-D
What a happy day that will be! Who likes authority and death? I'd be lying if I said I loved it. But when it comes to the unlawful, sure, I'll accept it for the time being as long as it's not going to dead-end into it.
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Gina,
Wha' hoppen to #3 in the list above??
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Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It's fixed.
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Wish these "last days" would come now ...They were, they are (a time is coming and is now here)and they will be.... where the heck are they?
Rom 13:11 This, also, do, being aware of the era, that it is already the hour for us to be roused out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than when we believe."
later in corinthians ...
2Co 6:2 For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!"
Who is the son of mankind ? and when does the son of mankind, become the son of God?
Joh 12:23 Yet Jesus is answering them, saying, "Come has the hour that the Son of Mankind should be glorified."
Gal 4:6 Now, seeing that you are sons, God delegates the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father!"
Gal 4:7 So that you are no longer a slave, but a son. Now if a son, an enjoyer also of an allotment from God, through Christ.
seems we have to Luk 11:13 If you, then, being inherently wicked, are aware how to give good gifts to your children, how much rather will the Father Who is out of heaven, be giving holy spirit to those requesting Him!"
No...I cannot believe the "some future day/hour" theory, sorry
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Ian, one of the main things that Ray expounded on in his articles is that only a 'few' are being dragged to Christ now, in this age, the 'many' will be saved in the next age.
Yes the few are given His Holy Spirit and are begotten now in this age, but the resurrection of the dead has NOT happened... do you think it has? That is the 'future' hope that we set our sights on.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
v. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
What we have now is a 'begottal,' just a taste, a foreshadow of what is yet to come.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"—
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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What I see going on there in the second chapter of Acts is Peter explaining to the crowd what was actually happening that monumental day of Pentecost.
He did the explaining by referencing what the scriptures had said must happen, and verse 15 has much to say that leads up to the prophets words.
15-For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Joel
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Well I'm not entirely sure what Ian is going on about with the "future day/ eon" concept but the scriptures certainly speak of a comming ressurection of the dead, a day of judgment for the world, and a day when we ourselves will finally recieve our awaited change and birth into the kingdom of God. My scriptures serve to supplement what Kat has already shared.
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
1 Corinthians 15:12-18
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Yes we are CALLED son's of God but we have not attained all that which being called such entails.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and CALLS those things which be NOT as though they were.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Philippians 3:8-14
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, IF that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:18-23
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Let anyone who trembles at the Word of God never forget that it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Let Jesus plain words make this matter clear and final:
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
If you're still alive kicking and screaming and suffering then you havn't endured unto the end yet. We are still not there! You have not yet been saved.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
We havn't over come yet, we are still fighting the good fight. Fight unto the end as Paul layed out the example and Christ before Him.
When you are finally born into the kingdom of God you will know it. You will be powerful and invisible like the wind.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Children, sons and daughters of God, with a promise of a glorious future, we are, but we have not yet attained to that which we follow after.
God bless,
Alex
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Well I'm not entirely sure what Ian is going on about with the "future day/ eon" concept but the scriptures certainly speak of a comming ressurection of the dead,
Hi Alex,
Everyone is born spiritually dead in this life so God the Father would need to quicken ones spirit in order for one to follow Christ.
Maybe Ian is seeing that as the first resurrection, which in a way it could be look at in that way.
Being spiritually dead to spiritually alive. Maybe that’s what Ian is saying.
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Hey Rick,
Perhaps, but if that is the case, the scriptures already speak of a first ressurection, and its the ressurection of the elect which pertains to a yet future event in which they reign with Christ and judge the world and the angels. Unless someone wants to argue that we currently are reigning with Christ and judging the world and the angels?
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The second ressurection is the ressurection of the rest of the world. Ressurection of the Just [1st] and the ressurection of the Unjust [2nd]. Either way, these things are yet future.
Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
God bless,
Alex
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Perhaps, but if that is the case, the scriptures already speak of a first ressurection, and its the ressurection of the elect which pertains to a yet future event
I agree with you Alex but it’s the only thing I could think of that would in someway vindicate Ian from straying from scripture. If he is looking at it from the point of view I suggested , then that would make sense why he thinks the first resurrection has already taken place but only in the sense I mentioned .
But there were people back in Paul’s day who claimed the resurrection has already happen and here is what scripture says about it below.
Ti 2:18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.
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Hey Gents and Ladies,
I'm getting a little confused at your confusion, if that is what it is. ???
When Father God calls us we receive "an earnest" of the spirit of God to help us to begin to understand and to pique our curiosity. At that point, Father God has given us to Christ to work with through the operation of the holy spirit in our lives. It is an earnest, a sign, the promise of future work to be done in us. It is just a tiny little bit of God's spirit.
Only Jesus the son of God had the holy spirit in full measure...
Jesus said that none of those that Father God gives to Jesus will he in any way lose.
So to me that indicates a work that is being done in us by Christ until it is finished.
It is not finished until we die, physically!
During this whole time that Jesus is working in us and on us we continue to sin...
We are flesh and blood we cannot resist sin perfectly, PERIOD!
AND we certainly have come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
So we die; then, in our next conscious moment we will be resurrected at Jesus' return.
It is at that moment and not sooner that we are given our spirit composed body.
It is from that moment on that we are free from sin.
It is a gift, a miracle of God through HIS spirit and not based upon anything we have done.
God has not called only those that God believes have a reasonable chance of making it into His Kingdom as elect leaders and servants of everyone else.
No, God has called the scum of the earth humanly speaking, the bottom of the barrel so to speak, those that need a lot of work to improve even a little.
God is going to show HIS glory by the miracle he will do in each of our lives, by making a useful vessel out of plain clay (dirt).
Everyone else will be dealt with later according to God's perfect plan.
Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
2 Corinthians 5:5
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Ephesians 1:14
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
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Nicely said indianaBob, I agree. When Jesus is done his work then you probably wont live much longer and you will die physically and your next moment of consciousness will be in a glorified spiritual body. There seems to be some that think there knowledge will get them to where they think there going! Its like you said its the scum of the earth....
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
lest we think we are greater than anyone here!...
1 Corinthians 4:6-8 (KJV)
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
In Christ
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I refer to things spiritual... it is difficult when writing to express exactly what one is trying to say. That is due to different minds which interpret statements and words differently,ye even verses.
If you are and perceive this DAY as a literal day and the clouds as literal clouds then so be it
I am positive that the person who "doesn't know what I am on about" may not, for the following verses and the persons who do know, do so for the 2nd half of the verse below.(if that does come across as arrogant it is not meant with an arrogant heart)
Mat 13:15 For stoutened is the heart of this people, And with their ears heavily they hear, And with their eyes they squint, Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes, And with their ears should be hearing, And with their heart may be understanding, And should be turning about, And I shall be healing them.'"
Mat 13:16 Yet happy are your eyes, for they are observing, and your ears, for they are hearing."
Mat 13:17 For verily I am saying to you that many prophets and just men yearn to perceive what you are observing, and perceive not, and to hear what you are hearing, and hear not."
some of the verses that changed my mindset from the DAY theories please note this is how I see these scriptures, so take care as i may as i often have,be wrong in which case i am man enough to repent openly
Pertaining to the DAY of the Lord
Mat 24:5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many." This is happening has happened and will happen that is many say, Jesus is Lord/the Christ
Mat 24:6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation."
and this spiritually in us there is a huge war and wars re the scriptures and the understanding of them
Mat 24:7 For roused shall be a nation against a nation, and a kingdom against a kingdom, and there shall be famines and quakes in places."
do your own families rise against you ? are you not getting sufficient understanding of the word (famine) are you sometimes jolted to your core when you perceive a new meaning of scripture ?
Just a small interjection... did you notice the earthquake at the cross, actually interfered with the soldiers belief system and caused him to say "Surely this was the son of God"
Mat 24:8 Yet all these are the beginning of pangs.
if so this is the beginning of christ becoming you
Mat 24:9 Then shall they be giving you up to affliction, and they shall be killing you, and you shall be hated by all of the nations because of My name."
affliction ? what dat ? do they kill you with their words?do they scorn you when you speak of your interpretation ? are you hated by them and there is no physical rationale or reason you can place your finger on ?
Mat 24:10 And then many shall be snared, and they shall be giving one another up and hating one another."
do you really think you would go to physical jail when this happens ?
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall be roused, and shall be deceiving many."
Look on tv and the internet even better is a good look in "you"
Mat 24:12 And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling."
what do you see lawlessness as ? running a red light ?
Mat 24:13 Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved."
how do we endure the relentless trials we face ? "we shall overcome",or "they overcame"
Mat 24:14 And heralded shall be this evangel of the kingdom in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the consummation shall be arriving."
is the earth the globe ? is it you ? will you be a testimony ? or could it be the understanding of the cross and once understood, the consummation of all you know will be apparent, all you have been taught will come together
Mat 24:15 Whenever, then, you may be perceiving the abomination of desolation, which is declared through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him who is reading apprehend!);"Like Ray said you can know.... was daniel really in the holy place?was he able to write so it is apparent to all?
Mat 24:16 then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. what does judea stand for/represent ? what is a mountain ?
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not descend to take away the things out of his house.
Really, a physical house, removing Physical furniture and clothing ?
Mat 24:18 And let him who is in the field not turn back behind him to pick up his cloak.
what cloak does a farm labourer wear ?
Mat 24:19 Now woe to those who are pregnant and those suckling in those days!"
pregnant with who ? feeding who ?
Mat 24:20 Now be praying that your flight may not be occurring in winter, nor yet on a sabbath,
fight 274 departing in winter on Saturday ?
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring." when is ones beginning and is "Till now" a lie ?
Mat 24:22 And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted." who is the chosen one ?
Are His words spirit and does the spiritual understanding bring one life and peace? well if so then i have more news
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then moved the earth; but now he promiseth, saying: Yet once more: and I will move, not only the earth, but heaven also.
so it seems even heavenly understanding will be moved
such is purification ...
1Co 15:51 Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed,
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Well I'm not entirely sure what Ian is going on about with the "future day/ eon" concept but the scriptures certainly speak of a comming ressurection of the dead,
Hi Alex,
Everyone is born spiritually dead in this life so God the Father would need to quicken ones spirit in order for one to follow Christ.
Maybe Ian is seeing that as the first resurrection, which in a way it could be look at in that way.
Being spiritually dead to spiritually alive. Maybe that’s what Ian is saying.
is there a "Like" button ?
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Well I'm not entirely sure what Ian is going on about with the "future day/ eon" concept but the scriptures certainly speak of a comming ressurection of the dead, a day of judgment for the world, and a day when we ourselves will finally recieve our awaited change and birth into the kingdom of God. My scriptures serve to supplement what Kat has already shared.
You have gone off the subject but for interest sake I will comment on your understanding with my understanding hope you do the same
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
pray show me a second witness to what you think this verse means
nevermind you wont find one
1 Corinthians 15:12-18
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? I d like to know too
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: makes sence
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. makes more sense
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. yep
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:mmmm
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Scary
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. What does he mean by ALSO ?
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. yeah correct carnal minds cannot
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,so will we all sleep or wont we ?
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.And what is this trumpet? i think Ray said its a "warning" a huge one a final one
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Yes we are CALLED son's of God but we have not attained all that which being called such entails.
Isa 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us....
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and CALLS those things which be NOT as though they were.
give us your explanation ...
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
When is it that He does appear ?
Philippians 3:8-14
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Has this happened to you yet ?
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: so its not up to us ?
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; do you know the power of HIS resurrection ?
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
dead as in no air or dead as in no spirit ?
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, IF that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:18-23
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. like im saying is shall referring to after we sleep ?
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. when is now ?
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. oh Is it our physical body that is resurrected ? with a spiritual twist
Let anyone who trembles at the Word of God never forget that it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Let Jesus plain words make this matter clear and final:
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
If you're still alive kicking and screaming and suffering then you havn't endured unto the end yet. We are still not there! You have not yet been saved.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
We havn't over come yet, we are still fighting the good fight. Fight unto the end as Paul layed out the example and Christ before Him. Paul seems to differ he said "I have run the race",he further said (perhaps he was being arrogant ) I know there awaits a wreath for me - to my understanding ya don't get a wreath if you don't run da race
When you are finally born into the kingdom of God you will know it. You will be powerful and invisible like the wind. Really?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And this means one is gonna be powerful and invisible like the wind ?I was under the impression that the spirit was gentle similar to that of a Dove could this not be literal, but likened too?
Children, sons and daughters of God, with a promise of a glorious future, we are, but we have not yet attained to that which we follow after.
God bless,
Alex
Me thinks there is a huge gap in interpreting the word
perhaps you can comment on the below scriptures ...
Luk 2:26 And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death before he had seen the Christ of the Lord.
Mat 16:28 Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Joh 8:52 The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets: and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was transferred, so as not to be acquainted with death, and was not found, because God transfers him. For before his transference he is attested to have pleased God well."
Joh 3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.
The spirit working in us gives us understanding otherwise we are dead (carnal)perhaps i am
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Hi Ian,
I will direct this reply to your last post addressed to myself.
You asked for a second witness to 2 Timoth 2:18 and I gave them to you immediately following. Let me highlight specifically were paul makes it clear the resurrection is future:
1 Cor 15:20-24
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Then there is 1 Cor 15:50-52 where paul makes it clear it is at the Last trumpet, the 'at his coming.'
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is exactly what John echoes when He says, "WHEN He shall appear, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is (1 John 3:2)." This is the "change" paul speaks about. The incorruptible that we put on is not of the physical body as you ask but is a change to the physical to a spiritual one for those who overcome.
1 Corinthians 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:52-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So WHEN this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Christ echoed these same thoughts about a day of return when He gathers to Himself the elect:
Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The very same trumpet paul was speaking of. The last trumpet when He appears and we see Him as He is and the dead are raised.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
There is also more of the same in this:
Matthew 24:37-39
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luke 21:27-29
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Death has not be swallowed up in victory. Christ has not yet returned. The last trumpet has not yet sounded. The ressurection has not yet occured. We have not yet SEEN Christ with our eyes and be changed into His same form and complete spiritual character. We are currently undergoing a process that will continue until the day we die. We have this "HOPE" and so we purify ourselves because of that beautiful promise that is set out before us.
Philipians 1:6 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 2:12-16
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Romans 4:17 requires no explenation. It is as paul states that God calls the things which are not as though they were. We are CALLED Sons of God for the very same reason. God see's us for what we will be. Its the very same reason God could die for the sins of the world and all the wicked and perverse people because He see's them for who they will be in Christ.
The spirit is gentle as a dove and powerful enough to bring this entire universe to life with all its awesome displays of natural forces. The same way God is Love but also hated Esau and has stored up wrath for the day against those who would trampled under foot the Son of God.
Now as for paul stating He ran the race faithfully. Here is exactly what paul said:
2 Tim 4:6-8
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul said this because He knew He was about to be offered up as a sacrifice. He knew that the end of his life was upon him. You may be fortunate enough like Paul to know at the end of your life that you have overcome but since none of us is at the end of our lives yet we can't know if this is something every Elect of God will have with certainty in their heart or if it was just given to some very few like Paul and others prior to their being martyred for the gospel's sake. So with that, I leave you to wrestle with these scriptures as you please. Those that are God's cannot be lost. His Word is truth and the scriptures cannot be broken.
There is nothing wrong with looking for the spiritual aspect and the dueality of meaning in the scriptures but it does become a problem when you start contradicting many other plain verses of scripture so that you can keep this new found "spiritual" interpretation.
God be with you,
Alex
P.S. I did not address your final four scriptures you presented as I would rather deal with one concept at a time. We are talking about a future day so I will stick with that. I also have to actually be leaving now and cannot continue my post any further. Perhaps later if God wills I will address the remaining four verses.
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Yes the elect are spiritually raised from spiritual death now in this life, being baptized into His death, then with the earnest of the Spirit they put on the 'new man/woman.'
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
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I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
Hi Kat,
I don’t wish to become confused by your question to Ian, you had mentioned a bodily resurrection from the grave ?
My understanding from Ray is that God is not going to resurrect our bodies after we die, they are going to decay but what I understood is that God will give everyone a new body.
God’s elect will receive a spiritual body and the rest will receive a new fleshly body. Is this understanding correct ?
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great thread :)
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I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
Hi Kat,
I don’t wish to become confused by your question to Ian, you had mentioned a bodily resurrection from the grave ?
My understanding from Ray is that God is not going to resurrect our bodies after we die, they are going to decay but what I understood is that God will give everyone a new body.
God’s elect will receive a spiritual body and the rest will receive a new fleshly body. Is this understanding correct ?
Yes Rick, as Ray had said, of course, the elect will be given a new body, I don't think this old body we have now will be much good, especially if it is in the grave for a long time there may not be any of it left...
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But if you remember Christ attire His resurrection by to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood.
But if you remember Christ after His resurrection back to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood and ate something in their presence to prove He was really in a human body and not just a Spirit.
Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.”
v. 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
v. 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
v. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
v. 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
v. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.
So when the elect are raised, they will be "like Him" and I think this is one aspect they will share with Christ in that glorious state of being, that they can appear on earth as flesh and blood to the people they will be judging.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
Thank you for your reply, there is something more about the resurrection that does confuse me, according to Ray’s paper and Eze 37:4
Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the Word of Jehovah.
Eze 37:5 So says the Lord Jehovah to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews on you, and will bring up flesh on you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live. And you shall know that I am Jehovah.
Ezekiel prophecy does sound like God is rebuilding bodies up from the bone to the skin or at least that’s my interpretation of Ezekiel’s prophecy.
I’m understanding these scriptures as the resurrection onto the white throne judgement seeing where God’s elect are in their order before the many.
Could you elaborate further on this subject ? :-\
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Rick, I'm thinking the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel is speaking of the great white throne resurrection of the rest of the dead too. And I would think those in the resurrection of the rest of the dead would also need to be given new physical bodies too. The resurrection for the rest of the dead would seem to come in order after the 'first' resurrection... if you think about it, the elect will probably have some kind of induction into the kingdom - marriage supper of the Lamb? So maybe there would be a delay after the first resurrection when the elect ascend up to meet Christ in the air, for there to be a marriage supper before the elect to return to earth with Christ.
Rev 21:2 Then I, John,fn saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for afn thousand years.
v. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (this first part is spurious). This is the first resurrection.
v. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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To KAT in particular;
Comment from Indiana Bob,
"Kat, in the paragraph below, underlined by me, did you mean to say "flesh and BLOOD" or did you mean flesh and bone as given in scripture??
Just thought we should understand that there may be a difference...
Jesus gave his BLOOD for us and for humans their life is in the blood.
Yet when we are changed in the first resurrection our life will be spirit just as Jesus' is.
We will be immortal and no longer need a circulating blood system.
<subject to correction>
Indiana Bob
I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
Hi Kat,
I don’t wish to become confused by your question to Ian, you had mentioned a bodily resurrection from the grave ?
My understanding from Ray is that God is not going to resurrect our bodies after we die, they are going to decay but what I understood is that God will give everyone a new body.
God’s elect will receive a spiritual body and the rest will receive a new fleshly body. Is this understanding correct ?
Yes Rick, as Ray had said, of course, the elect will be given a new body, I don't think this old body we have now will be much good, especially if it is in the grave for a long time there may not be any of it left...
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But if you remember Christ attire His resurrection by to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood.
But if you remember Christ after His resurrection back to life, He came to the disciples as flesh and blood and ate something in their presence to prove He was really in a human body and not just a Spirit.
Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.”
v. 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
v. 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
v. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
v. 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
v. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.
So when the elect are raised, they will be "like Him" and I think this is one aspect they will share with Christ in that glorious state of being, that they can appear on earth as flesh and blood to the people they will be judging.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this :D...
these are my thoughts below
I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have and I don't think you will find one except for 2tim 2v18 I believe Hymenaeus and Philetus,believed in a "physical" resurrection and were blaspheming.
some pointers for me were the messenger speaking with Mary luke 24 ..."Why do you look for the living among the dead"
One could view this as "well the clothing (grave) were there and no bones" or one could see that the clothing is now no longer a hindrance... that is knowing HE will "re dress" us andthrow in some spiritual jewelry.
To my mind bones are symbolic ... Jesus said you are "whitewashed tombs full of dead mens bones" yet they were standing in front of him, chewing gum and breathing...
I used to see what Jesus did physically happens to us Physically... now I see everything he done Physically happens in us spiritually we raise the spiritually"dead" we heal the spiritually sick,we feed the poor in spirit etc
However carnal minds are full of vain Imaginations and are looking for the physical/or the "unless I see it literally, I wont believe" this is the exact opposite of faith though... and this is one pointer that separates us from them, for now.(sheep vs goats)
When Jesus (now resurrected) was on the road to Emmaus the 2 disciples had absolutely no idea who they were talking to - there eyes were opened after - when ? when they "broke bread" (revisited ,symbolically the "death").we are to do this often in our thoughts...
Luk 24:32 And they say to one another, "Was not our heart burning in us as He spoke to us on the road and as He opened up to us on the road and as He opened up to us the scriptures...
They recognised him after the Spirit not after his appearance
Long time back Ray got me thinking,(well I know now it was God using Ray) while speaking on carnality, quote "To be carnal is NOT Good,its BAD... for to be carnally minded IS DEATH.
Jesus makes the following statement "Let the dead bury the Dead", this, although imaginative, is literally impossible...
So no I do not believe we are raised physically or else we will not see God,who is Spirit and.. "Spirit begets Spirit".
There is an awful lot more on this, I am trying to get my head around the prodigal son now, which could be the greatest test, when considering these coming into the kingdom and we been studying ,crying,praying and they get to enter these heavens FREELY...There is more to being elect than meets the natural eye..one cant be sure if they are elect or can they ?
Even more pressing is, how does this help me now, I mean I'm living in a "real" world ..
this is a short prayer btw.
blessings
2Co 5:1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens."
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Friend Ian 155
Thanks for the friendly explanation, BUT...
I don't see that you answered Kat's simple question in a simple manner with additional exposition where needed.
I would have answered that we are resurrected spiritual with the ability to appear in physical form in order to function in an earthly, physical environment.
Many examples are found in scripture in addition to Jesus' appearance after his resurrection.
What is so difficult about my statement that may confuse or mislead??? ;D
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I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have and I don't think you will find one except for 2tim 2v18 I believe Hymenaeus and Philetus,believed in a "physical" resurrection and were blaspheming.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
v. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
v. 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
You do see there that Hymenaeus and Philetus' "idle babbling" was that "the resurrection is already past" and that is because the resurrection is yet future. Paul even explained that those saying there was no literal resurrection, then neither did they believe in Christ's literal resurrection back to life as the Firstfruit, His physical body was changed and raised into a glorious spiritual body... that is what the elect will experience as well.
1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
Paul went on to explain that IF there is no resurrection, then the those elect who have "fallen asleep" - died, are "perished" - lose forever.
1Cor 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
v. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
Paul says to the elect that they "will receive (future, my comment) the crown of glory," and "shall be (future) made alive"... "at His coming," Paul and the other elect were already begotten with the Holy Spirit, their crown/reward was yet future.
1Pe 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.
So yes there is a spiritual begettal for the chosen few now, in this life, but clearly Paul says that his crown is "laid up for me" waiting for him to receive in the resurrection to glory, in the future.
2Tim 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this :D...
these are my thoughts below
I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have
Hello Ian,
Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption ( physical ) ( spiritual )
You also mentioned Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )
These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;
Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine
( 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don’t know He just appeared in the room with them.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Can God’s elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?
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Friend Ian 155
Thanks for the friendly explanation, BUT...
I don't see that you answered Kat's simple question in a simple manner with additional exposition where needed.
Pleasure BUT...Thats my choice, having been down this path before, would you give, what is sacred, to "dogs" ? ever hear of the word SETUP
I would have answered that we are resurrected spiritual with the ability to appear in physical form in order to function in an earthly, physical environment.
Really so there are exceptions to Your word ...one can be in the heavens and be fleshly at the same time?
Many examples are found in scripture in addition to Jesus' appearance after his resurrection.
well then you don't have to know Jesus (God) after the spirit ? Right ?and you will see the invisible God with your natural eyeball right ?
You can say "hey" I see Jesus in him, he has long hair and is rather handsome,with a slightly longer nose ?
friend... here are some "crumbs"...Jesus often appears to me and many others, he tells me many things and explains himself/his word, yet...,
I don't see anything ? get the picture?
What is so difficult about my statement that may confuse or mislead??? ;D
what statement ? ;D
So you recon we climb back into our mama's womb and come out again only this time half spiritual and half physical
ye are yet carnal...
don't panic though,all in Gods time, perhaps you are being raised from the dead, right now...
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I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have and I don't think you will find one except for 2tim 2v18 I believe Hymenaeus and Philetus,believed in a "physical" resurrection and were blaspheming.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
v. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
v. 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
You do see there that Hymenaeus and Philetus' "idle babbling" was that "the resurrection is already past" and that is because the resurrection is yet future.
NO I DON'T SEE IT LIKE THAT
PAST,Well literally... that then takes care of the "lie" that Christ was resurrected, ya think ?There is more to this verse than meets the eye,go and study it before your one and only verse, which to YOU means there is only a PHYSICAL RESURRECTION OF "DUST" PEOPLE AFTER YOU DIE LITERALLY
Perhaps the title of this ladies thread, may waken you.
Would be good to see how the Spirit returns To God Who gave it.. LITERALLY
"then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it"
Paul even explained that those saying there was no literal resurrection, then neither did they believe in Christ's literal resurrection back to life as the Firstfruit, His physical body was changed and raised into a glorious spiritual body... that is what the elect will experience as well.
What would you want this old tent for ? and Paul did not say anything about a "literal" resurrection
THE RENEWAL OF YOUR MIND BY THE WASHING OF THE WORD
1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
yes Id like to know too we are resurrected,BORN AGAIN,NOT WITH HANDS, BY HIS SPIRIT.
The way you are interpreting the scriptures, surely this verse above directly contradicts your fav verse 2 Tim 2v18 ?
v. 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
EXACTLY
v. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
PRECISELY
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
YEBO
Paul went on to explain that IF there is no resurrection, then the those elect who have "fallen asleep" - died, are "perished" - lose forever.
Who Said there is no resurrection ??
BTW CAN YOU SEE A MIND, A RENEWED ONE ?
1Cor 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
v. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.(alive to what)human status ?
v. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
AND THESE VERSES ABOVE MEAN THAT YOU MUST BE RESURRECTED PHYSICALLY ?
Paul says to the elect that they "will receive (future, my comment) the crown of glory," and "shall be (future) made alive"... "at His coming," Paul and the other elect were already begotten with the Holy Spirit, their crown/reward was yet future.
1Pe 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.
ALL PHYSICAL THINGS FADE AWAY, SO WE AGREE, THIS IS A SPIRITUAL CROWN OF GLORY.
So yes there is a spiritual begettal for the chosen few now, in this life, but clearly Paul says that his crown is "laid up for me" waiting for him to receive in the resurrection to glory, in the future.
(this crown is it physical ?) what does "crown" have to do with appearance ?
YA CANT SEE SPIRIT WITH THE NATURAL EYEBALL
2Tim 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Flesh Cannot contain the kingdom... in the Flesh one is restricted... is God Restricted ?You will never convince me that we who are going to be like HIM, are raised flesh or fleshly or half and half only PURE fits the Kingdom all else dies.
If you believe we will be as HE is then eating all the "big macs" in America will not come close to stretching your body to fit the kingdom of GOD into IT -
FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM - SPIRIT BEGETS SPIRIT,WE ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE,NO "HINT" OF CARNALITY,ANY REMOTE SIGN OF FLESH/CARNALITY WILL ROT,DIE, THE SPIRIT ONLY, BRINGS LIFE .
IT may carnal to assume the walls of Jericho were physical I pray that the Walls and Doors will come down and be opened in your and my mind .
The adversary would not have it so, it appears
1Co 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death
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I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this :D...
these are my thoughts below
I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have
Hello Ian,
Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
A clue ...are the greeks highly superstitious ? reincarnation,statues,gods etc
Are you aware that bar the ERV Paul is saying to Timothy ,that these two Greek chaps, are actually saying that the resurrection has already occurred?
Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Natural dies when Spirit is poured out
do you know what Born Again/Anew means ? Do you know what a new regenerated Mind Means
Physically can you see a new reborn mind ? can you physically,see the mind of Christ ? -
One can see the minds Fruit ,you cant see an actual mind running around .
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption ( physical ) ( spiritual )
You also mentioned Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )
Sure he likened them to tombs and DEAD MENS BONES I mean he wasn't addressing tombstones and a bunch of bones was he now
These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.
True
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;
YES,your point ?
Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine
( 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don’t know He just appeared in the room with them.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Can God’s elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?
sure, is Ray around when you read his papers ?
Check out Acts 19 for more clarity on 2tim 2v18,then let me know what you think is going on in 2 tim 2v18 and Ill respond... most of the other stuff I have answered today.
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Ian, I've read your posts and I strongly disagree with your conclusions.
You mock the idea of a literal ressurection yet this is exactly what Ezekiel saw. A very literal, physical, non spiritual, ressurection.
Ezekiel 37:1-10
1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army
Furthermore you did not respond to my post where I shared very strong witnesses for a future day, last day, return of Christ and ressurection of the dead. Including what happens to the elect on that day which is similar in nature to what occurs to the world but with a twist--They put on the heavenly image. They recieve spiritual-immortal bodies.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Just READ what is right infront of you and don't try to rewrite it with blue letters. The future ressurection is very real and for the vast majority of God's creation it will occur as described by Ezekiel the prophet of God.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Notice paul says, 'we shall [future] ALSO be in the likeness of His ressurection.' So paul is very careful to not say that we have yet been raised from the dead but that we should 'walk in the newness of life.' He says the ressurection will be FUTURE. I believe paul did this because its all about the mindset we have:
Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 3:18-21
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Our conversation, our minds, is in the Heavens because we CONSIDER ourselves dead to the physical body by the working of God's spirit in us. This then allows us to be have the mind of Christ, to be thinking upon the spiritual things and as you stated earlier, experience that 'renewing of the mind.'
Romans 12: 1-2
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
We 'die daily' not because we are ressurected daily but because salvation is a process and we must constantly put off this flesh so that we can mind the things of the spirit (renewing of the mind). So that we can prove what is that 'perfect will of God.' We see in part, we know in part.
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
You chided Kat for asking if she thinks we will see God one day who is spirit. There is much I want to say on this topic but I am not permitted as it borders on teaching. I will only state what anyone can search up in scripture and that is:
Exodus 33:18-23
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
God be with you,
Alex
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Well Ian, you are hanging on to your beliefs that go totally contrary to what Ray taught. You brought up being banned before... why do you think you were? For this very teaching!
You are showing that either you don't understand or either just flat out don't agree with what Ray taught and those of us here also believe. Now what you want to believe is your prerogative, but you cannot bring it here... and even before you put all this up that shows how you specifically believe you were making many comments that indirectly referred to this way of thinking, that just leads to confusion for those who are trying to study what Ray taught, especially those that may be new to these teachings.
Here are a few places that show exactly what Ray had taught on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4132.0.html -------
COMMENT; NO, neither. We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND." Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. See my paper "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" where I discuss the "sinner's prayer" near the end and how that no Scriptures says that we are "saved" already in the past tense. This also happens when we are given a new spiritual body in our resurrection from the dead.
Here is the key word to all of these misunderstandings you are having. You are talking the words of Rom. 6 literally, whereas we know that they were inspired of Christ's Holy Spirit, and these words are "spirit" (John 6:63). Notice verse 11, after Paul explains all that happens when we are spiritually baptized with Jesus, He then shows how these things apply to us: "Likewise [in like manner as Paul just explained the meaning of all these things in the previous verses]...LIKEWISE
R-E-C-K-O-N you also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but ALIVE unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). "Reckon" means to estimate, suppose, count" etc. something to BE what it is not YET fully comprehended or fully come to pass.
(emailer's comment)"...I can no longer sin........do I have to repent.........can I sin after being reborn?"
COMMENT: We will sin as long as we are living in our flesh and bones and blood bodies. Yes, we must repent: "FORGIVE us our debts...." (Matt. 6:12). We are to come to the place were sin "sin shall not have DOMINION over you" (Rom. 6:14), but "if we say we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US...if we say that we have NOT SINNED, we make HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US" (I John 1:8-10).
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html --------------
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html -------------
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:42-45)
When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."
Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above." In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born." Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom: "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html ------
Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie
Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again". All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection. We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.
God be with you,
Ray
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I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this :D...
these are my thoughts below
I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have
Hello Ian,
Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
A clue ...are the greeks highly superstitious ? reincarnation,statues,gods etc
Are you aware that bar the ERV Paul is saying to Timothy ,that these two Greek chaps, are actually saying that the resurrection has already occurred?
Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Natural dies when Spirit is poured out
do you know what Born Again/Anew means ? Do you know what a new regenerated Mind Means
Physically can you see a new reborn mind ? can you physically,see the mind of Christ ? -
One can see the minds Fruit ,you cant see an actual mind running around .
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption ( physical ) ( spiritual )
You also mentioned Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )
Sure he likened them to tombs and DEAD MENS BONES I mean he wasn't addressing tombstones and a bunch of bones was he now
These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.
True
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;
YES,your point ?
Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine
( 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don’t know He just appeared in the room with them.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Can God’s elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?
sure, is Ray around when you read his papers ?
Check out Acts 19 for more clarity on 2tim 2v18,then let me know what you think is going on in 2 tim 2v18 and Ill respond... most of the other stuff I have answered today.
This from Ray.
TRUTH NUMBER 1
[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).
"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).
[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).
[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).
The sequence of God’s plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.
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Here is something further from Ray regarding physical or spiritual bodies in the Resurrection.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
« on: June 14, 2008, 03:40:06 PM »
PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
This is a rather involved study that I have only a short time to touch upon at this time. I realize that this will probably (as always) raise even more questions in other areas. Please don’t try to speculate yourself in unscriptural solutions to these potential mysteries. I must stay focused on those studies which I deem most import for our site at this time, and don’t have the time to be side-tracked too often.
There are few places in the Old Testament where a resurrection of dead people are mentioned or alluded to. Jesus stated that the declaration, “Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matt. 22:31).
This statement proves that if God is the “God of the living,” but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead when Jesus mentions them, then there has got to be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The major prophecy concerning the resurrection is found in Ezek. 37. Here we are shown a valley of “dry bones” which God says represents “the WHOLE House of Israel” -- “And He said unto me, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished has our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves” (Ezek. 37:11).
So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being “perished” with no “hope,” and are “cut off.” But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?
I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."
Eze 37:8 “And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.] has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."
I know of no “spiritual” tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical “bones” to remake a “spiritual” man. This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 “And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force” (Ezek. 37:10).
Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then “stand on their feet.” This is the exact and precise definition of the word “resurrection.” It means to “stand up” upon one’s feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being “spiritual” or “immortal” whatsoever. Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ’s resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.
Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere. The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let’s notice a few things that most overlook:
Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world? The salvation of the wicked? The resurrection of the wicked? NO. Let’s read it:
“Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, ‘brethren’] I declare unto YOU the gospel…” (I Cor. 15:1).
“…by which also YOU are saved…” (Verse 2).
“For I delivered unto YOU….” (Verse 3). Etc.
What is the “order” of the resurrection of which Paul speaks? “But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at His coming” (Verse 23).
The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of “they that are CHRIST’S,” not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment. Pay attention TO THE WORDS!
1Co 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God “inheriting the Kingdom of God. Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their “inheriting the Kingdom of God?” I think not. Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection? Well many say “YES, yes they will.” NO, no they WON’T! Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?” Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”
We are told that a seed must die to give life to a new seed, or grain, or body (Verse 36).
What KIND of new seed comes about from planting a seed that first must die? 1Co 15:37 “And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain”
Are we told what the “other” grain might be that sprouts like “wheat?” Yes, as a matter of fact, we are:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
And are these “tares” also gathered into the barns (brought into the Kingdom of God)? NO, Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest [resurrection] I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles [different ‘groups’ at different ‘burnings’?] to burn them [in the Lake of Fire]: but gather the wheat into my barn [My KINGDOM].
NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up “immortal and incorruptible.”
What else do we learn about the resurrection of God’s Elect? What are some of the features of their newly resurrected bodies?
“…but the glory of the celestial [high, above, heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [worldly, EARTHLY] is another” (Verse 40).
Which category do the Elect come in? Now pay attention:
1Co 15:48-49 As is the earthy, such ARE they also that ARE earthy: and as is the heavenly, such ARE they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, WE SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly.
Notice that ONLY “we” [God’s Elect], not “they,” “…shall bear the image of the heavenly.” Paul is speaking that “THEY, the earthy,” and “WE, the heavenly,” and only the “we” will “bear the image of the heavenly,” not “they,” the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.
Now we can understand verse 50 in proper context:
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [corrupt men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Saddam Hussein] inherit incorruption.
The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those “WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly.” And this happens at a specific time:
1Co 15:51-54 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
It is the “we” and the “us” that will be changed at the last trump, not the “they” and the “them.”
Should Mao, Adolph, and Saddam be resurrected to incorruptible and immortal bodies, then death would also be “swallowed up in victory” in THEIR LIVES ALSO. How could they go through the “second DEATH” if “death” would have already been “swallowed up in VICTORY” in their miserable, wicked, vile, and deranged carnal minds? Such people know nothing of “the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus.” They know only of “law of SIN AND DEATH” (Rom. 8:2).
Notice these verses describing the resurrection of God’s elect:
1Co 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
INCORRUPTION: Strong’s #861, aphtharsia, “from #862 [un-decaying]; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: immortality, incorruption, sincerity.”
Note: INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY
GLORY: Strong’s #1391, doxa, G1391 From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honor, praise, worship.
Note: GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP
POWER: Strong’s #1411, dunamis, From G1410; “force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.”
Note: FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKIER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH, (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK
SPIRITUAL: Strong’s #4152, pneumatikos From G4151; “non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual.
Note: NON-CARNAL ETHEREAL (as opposed to gross or daemoniacally) SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Now let’s foolishly assume that the wicked are going to be resurrected with “spiritual” bodies. The only place in Scripture that anyone is said to be resurrected with a “spiritual body,” is in these many references in I Cor. 15. So if a resurrected “spiritual body” applies to the unjust and the wicked and the unbelievers, then these attributes which constitute a “spiritual body” resurrection MUST APPLY TO THEM ALSO. Now then, show me one Scripture anywhere that justifies people like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein being resurrected with:
INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH, (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Is there anywhere a Scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious, and holy, divine light? I think not. Rather we are presented with this as the characterization of the resurrected wicked to eonian judgment:
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame [rebuke, reproach, disgrace] and everlasting [eonian] contempt [repulsion, aversion, abhorrence].
Is it possible to have a greater contradiction of character traits than this? No, those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies. It’s unscriptural nonsense as far as I can see. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
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Ian, I've read your posts and I strongly disagree with your conclusions.
You mock the idea of a literal ressurection yet this is exactly what Ezekiel saw. A very literal, physical, non spiritual, ressurection.
Ezekiel 37:1-10
1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army
THIS IS LITERAL ? WOW
Furthermore you did not respond to my post where I shared very strong witnesses for a future day, last day, return of Christ and ressurection of the dead. Including what happens to the elect on that day which is similar in nature to what occurs to the world but with a twist--They put on the heavenly image. They recieve spiritual-immortal bodies.
OK forgive me for not answering that one here goes we are given GOD Like BODIES if there is such a thing seeing God is SPIRIT "And The HUMAN SHALL BECOME AS WE ARE" NOT FLESH AND BONE BUT UNSEEN "BODIES" if you want to apply BODY I can see a BODY I CANT SEE SPIRIT - perhaps we wont BE LIKE HIM we drag this tent with us - but "St PETER" WONT LET YOU IN ,IF YOU ARE REMOTELY FLESHLY
IS THERE AN IMMORTAL BODY (as in my body)?
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Just READ what is right infront of you and don't try to rewrite it with blue letters. The future ressurection is very real and for the vast majority of God's creation it will occur as described by Ezekiel the prophet of God.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
What has this to do with what Kat asked ME? that is do you think we are raised with Natural literal bodies
Notice paul says, 'we shall [future] ALSO be in the likeness of His ressurection.' So paul is very careful to not say that we have yet been raised from the dead but that we should 'walk in the newness of life.' He says the ressurection will be FUTURE. I believe paul did this because its all about the mindset we have:
Your future and my future may not be the same time right? - just asking, cause you inserted the word not GOD ever read the scripture "NOW IS THE TIME" ?
2Co 6:2 For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!"
Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 3:18-21
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
So do you agree? our talk is(should be, spirit not Literal
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Our conversation, our minds, is in the Heavens because we CONSIDER ourselves dead to the physical body by the working of God's spirit in us. This then allows us to be have the mind of Christ, to be thinking upon the spiritual things and as you stated earlier, experience that 'renewing of the mind.'
so true the "consider" part is faith so are there some folk walking according, NOW
Romans 12: 1-2
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
No problems with the above,how do you interpret it- so you can assist my wayward thinking - are there different bodies ? terrestrial and celestial ?
Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Yes, when you cast off ADAM or ADAM IS CAST OFF YOU and PUT ON CHRIST this is NEW, this happens in the heavens, above the flesh, above the natural understanding
We 'die daily' not because we are resurrected daily but because salvation is a process and we must constantly put off this flesh so that we can mind the things of the spirit (renewing of the mind). So that we can prove what is that 'perfect will of God.' We see in part, we know in part.
Now you getting desparate, re read what you wrote ...What has this to do with being raised spiritually.You cant prove anything without God guiding you
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
You chided Kat for asking if she thinks we will see God one day who is spirit. There is much I want to say on this topic but I am not permitted as it borders on teaching. I will only state what anyone can search up in scripture and that is:
No I did Not Chide Kat for what you quoted, Kat said "I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future"?and Kat knows what I think, to which I replied, "I believe all ,everything, is spiritual" (UNSEEN) and for your twisted version Only Spirit will see God, only Spirit will comprehend GOD, AS...,......... "HE IS THE FATHER OF SPIRITS" AMEN
Exodus 33:18-23
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Sure,can you see Gods FACE ? hence we DIE as "No one has see HIS face and LIVED" and what do we DIE to?, When GOD shows up ? perhaps...all earthy understanding ?
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
how do we get a PURE heart ? so we can see him ?
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads
Natural cannot see Gods Face, hence Moses's limitation, then
do you see His Name Literally tattooed on Your Forehead ?
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
God be with you,
Alex
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... but so be It, If you think I am Mocking as apposed to getting one THINKING Spiritually, well then mocking it is, BUT YOU CANNOT DISREGARD the Scriptures I have presented ... you know it and so does Kat and those who have eyes to see.
Perhaps this is another (when one finds out the is in fact no Father Xmas) type of experience.
The Spirit Gives life to "ezekiel's" bone "Vision" you interpret spiritual tendons as real tendons you interpret skin as real skin -
I'm afraid Ye Too, are Yet CARNAL... this however is a state... that is necessary .
You can change the truth for a lie (blaspheme all you like) I would like to add that the scripture does not contradict, Only Spirit begets Spirit -
COULD IT BE, THE ENEMY HAS DECEIVED YOU,SO AS TO NOT HAVE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH HIS POWER ?
Mat 22:29 Now, answering, Jesus said to them, "You are deceived, not being acquainted with the scriptures, nor yet with the power of God."
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection neither are they marrying nor taking in marriage, but are as messengers of God in heaven." baring Hollywood, how many messengers have you seen ???
Paul has the following to say re the above
2nd witness
1Co 7:29 Now this I am averring, brethren, the era is limited; that, furthermore, those also having wives may be as not having them,
Further,You are saying "dust returns to bones" and these bones get to wear tendons and flesh again and there is no spirit returning to The Father... how can you believe contrary ?surely this deception... wrecks your faith /??
If Ray can state IT WAS A SPIRITUAL VISION,on the one hand re transfiguration, which by the way should give you more insight, I don't believe this present "selective" understanding is appropriate, since, God CHANGES NOT.
Do me a favour dig up a grave say 100 years old - ya wont find bones friend, you that are medically inclined should know, dust does in fact return to dust
God Is Spirit we will be as he is,however it takes the Natural example to show us,Do you cut your hands off when "they" sin?do you pluck your natural "eye" out when "it" sins ?
How would Peter recognise Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration ? correct, according to the SPIRIT
I am not teaching you, I am exposing those who contradict... not one of your scriptures show me we are raised Human - what is NEW ABOUT THAT? perhaps you think the NEW JERUSALEM IS A HUGE REAL PLANET COMING DOWN SUSPENDED WITH CHAINS.
Think about the following...
How do you think God (who we will be like) can be everywhere at once ?Likewise ,re the wicked, how can Satan be "everywhere" restricted obviously to The Fathers authority. UNSEEN
do me another FAVOR friend... pray and pray fervently.
Perhaps I can call you Brother,one day.
ps why not give me your explanation of the scripture i present that would be a 1st
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I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this :D...
these are my thoughts below
I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have
Hello Ian,
Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
A clue ...are the greeks highly superstitious ? reincarnation,statues,gods etc
Are you aware that bar the ERV Paul is saying to Timothy ,that these two Greek chaps, are actually saying that the resurrection has already occurred?
Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Natural dies when Spirit is poured out
do you know what Born Again/Anew means ? Do you know what a new regenerated Mind Means
Physically can you see a new reborn mind ? can you physically,see the mind of Christ ? -
One can see the minds Fruit ,you cant see an actual mind running around .
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption ( physical ) ( spiritual )
You also mentioned Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )
Sure he likened them to tombs and DEAD MENS BONES I mean he wasn't addressing tombstones and a bunch of bones was he now
These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.
True
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;
YES,your point ?
Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine
( 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don’t know He just appeared in the room with them.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Can God’s elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?
sure, is Ray around when you read his papers ?
Check out Acts 19 for more clarity on 2tim 2v18,then let me know what you think is going on in 2 tim 2v18 and Ill respond... most of the other stuff I have answered today.
This from Ray.
TRUTH NUMBER 1
[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).
"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).
[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).
[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).
The sequence of God’s plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.
Glad we agree
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Well Ian, you are hanging on to your beliefs that go totally contrary to what Ray taught. You brought up being banned before... why do you think you were? For this very teaching!
You are showing that either you don't understand or either just flat out don't agree with what Ray taught and those of us here also believe. Now what you want to believe is your prerogative, but you cannot bring it here... and even before you put all this up that shows how you specifically believe you were making many comments that indirectly referred to this way of thinking, that just leads to confusion for those who are trying to study what Ray taught, especially those that may be new to these teachings.
Here are a few places that show exactly what Ray had taught on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4132.0.html -------
COMMENT; NO, neither. We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND." Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. See my paper "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" where I discuss the "sinner's prayer" near the end and how that no Scriptures says that we are "saved" already in the past tense. This also happens when we are given a new spiritual body in our resurrection from the dead.
Here is the key word to all of these misunderstandings you are having. You are talking the words of Rom. 6 literally, whereas we know that they were inspired of Christ's Holy Spirit, and these words are "spirit" (John 6:63). Notice verse 11, after Paul explains all that happens when we are spiritually baptized with Jesus, He then shows how these things apply to us: "Likewise [in like manner as Paul just explained the meaning of all these things in the previous verses]...LIKEWISE
R-E-C-K-O-N you also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but ALIVE unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). "Reckon" means to estimate, suppose, count" etc. something to BE what it is not YET fully comprehended or fully come to pass.
(emailer's comment)"...I can no longer sin........do I have to repent.........can I sin after being reborn?"
COMMENT: We will sin as long as we are living in our flesh and bones and blood bodies. Yes, we must repent: "FORGIVE us our debts...." (Matt. 6:12). We are to come to the place were sin "sin shall not have DOMINION over you" (Rom. 6:14), but "if we say we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US...if we say that we have NOT SINNED, we make HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US" (I John 1:8-10).
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html --------------
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html -------------
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:42-45)
When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."
Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above." In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born." Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom: "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html ------
Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie
Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again". All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection. We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.
God be with you,
Ray
KAt I will respond later I gota do stuff
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Ian,
You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.
In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.
As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."
John
-
Ian,
You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.
In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.
As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."
John
Well Not So Titled ie "Resurrection Paper" as in "Lake of Fire paper" if you get what I mean.. there are some papers with his thoughts in them
-
Ian,
You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.
In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.
As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."
John
Well Not So Titled ie "Resurrection Paper" as in "Lake of Fire paper" if you get what I mean.. there are some papers with his thoughts in them
;D ;D ;D Well Ian, you are beginning to lose me. The paper I quoted above, how are Ray's thoughts not in it? Besides, Ray's thoughts are not the key thing. The most important things are God's thoughts as clearly expressed by the Scriptures, not our opinions as to what we think the Scriptures say.
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OK forgive me for not answering that one here goes we are given GOD Like BODIES if there is such a thing seeing God is SPIRIT "And The HUMAN SHALL BECOME AS WE ARE" NOT FLESH AND BONE BUT UNSEEN "BODIES" if you want to apply BODY I can see a BODY I CANT SEE SPIRIT - perhaps we wont BE LIKE HIM we drag this tent with us - but "St PETER" WONT LET YOU IN ,IF YOU ARE REMOTELY FLESHLY
Ian this is a response you had for Alex... AFTER Christ's resurrection He said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me" (Matt 28:18), He had obtained back the glory He had with the Father (John 17:5).... but yet He still could appear at will to His disciples (Mark 16:12, 14; Acts 7:26: 13:31; 1Cor 15:5,6,7). And Paul said Christ also appeared to Him 1Cor 15:8 when he was converted. So if He is now an invisible Spirit how was that possible? Yes the Father is invisible Spirit, but Christ was made to be a visible image of the invisible God, and this is not just speaking of His life in the flesh either.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He spoke of 'entering' the kingdom, and being 'born' of the Spirit, that has not happened in the lives of elect, not until they are 'born' into the kingdom at Christ return and gathers them (Matt 24:31) at the first resurrection.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
v. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Do you think Jesus was saying that somebody born into the kingdom became invisible and no longer an individual? Actually Paul stated precisely what that means and he did not contradict what Jesus had said.
1Co 15:51 Lo! a sacred secret, unto you, do I declare:—we shall not, all, sleep, but we shall, all, be changed,—
v. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet; for it shall sound, and, the dead, shall be raised, incorruptible, and, we, shall be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must needs clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this mortal, clothe itself, with immortality. (Rotherham)
Changed does not mean made invisible as Paul had already stated there is a "spiritual body." I used Rotherham because it uses the word "incorruptibility" which means being impervious to corruption - sin, but this means being one with God, powerful and glorious, this is how the elect will be perfected. Just as Christ appeared many times after His resurrection to His disciples, as God He had power to do whatever He so desires... you cannot limit Him and say He cannot be seen. The Father is not seen, but that is why the Son was made, to be His voice and image, always. as when "every eye shall SEE Him" (Rev 1:7).
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And the elect will also be seen when they are ruling with Christ, they will have glorious "spiritual BODY."
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body (G4983).
G4983 sōma
Thayer Definition:
1) the body both of men or animals
1a) a dead body or corpse
1b) the living body
1b1) of animals
2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
3) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
3a) so in the NT of the church
4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself
So here is what is in the Scripture...
I continue to address this with you, because you have influence on this forum and your understanding on this is not what Ray taught and this a basic and fundamental principle. So you bring confusion here with your comments, because your basic way of understanding is flawed and effects the rest of what you say.
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Well Ian, you are hanging on to your beliefs that go totally contrary to what Ray taught. You brought up being banned before... why do you think you were? For this very teaching!
Can You actually tell me what i am "hanging on to " quoting that is incorrect or is it a case of your interpretation along with a truckload of scriptures that don't even apply and those that do you see with a fleshly mind
You are showing that either you don't understand or either just flat out don't agree with what Ray taught and those of us here also believe. Now what you want to believe is your prerogative, but you cannot bring it here... and even before you put all this up that shows how you specifically believe you were making many comments that indirectly referred to this way of thinking, that just leads to confusion for those who are trying to study what Ray taught, especially those that may be new to these teachings.
If I don't agree with certain of Rays interpretations and have the scriptures to back me up, what does that make me ? So explain where I'm wrong and have vered off the path...Ray is also under the impression that this word is effectively a giant parable as am I
Here are a few places that show exactly what Ray had taught on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4132.0.html -------
COMMENT; NO, neither. We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again exactly, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND." and you honestly believe that one must appear in this state literally Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. See my paper "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" where I discuss the "sinner's prayer" near the end and how that no Scriptures says that we are "saved" already in the past tense. This also happens when we are given a new spiritual body in our resurrection from the dead.
What is the new spiritual body ? perhaps unseen ? like the WIND ? see what I mean ?
Here is the key word to all of these misunderstandings you are having. You are talking the words of Rom. 6 literally, whereas we know that they were inspired of Christ's Holy Spirit, and these words are "spirit" (John 6:63). Notice verse 11, after Paul explains all that happens when we are spiritually baptized with Jesus, He then shows how these things apply to us: "Likewise [in like manner as Paul just explained the meaning of all these things in the previous verses]...LIKEWISE no problems
R-E-C-K-O-N you also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but ALIVE unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). "Reckon" means to estimate, suppose, count" etc. something to BE what it is not YET fully comprehended or fully come to pass.
(emailer's comment)"...I can no longer sin........do I have to repent.........can I sin after being reborn?"
COMMENT: We will sin as long as we are living in our flesh and bones and blood bodies.
OK that counters Paul who tells us to "be ye perfect"
Yes, we must repent: "FORGIVE us our debts...." (Matt. 6:12). We are to come to the place were sin "sin shall not have DOMINION over you" (Rom. 6:14), but "if we say we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US...if we say that we have NOT SINNED, we make HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US" (I John 1:8-10).
100%
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html --------------
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
yeah this has nothing to do with what you maintain we are resurrected into literal bodies
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
and i could scripturally add, that we will be Spirit just like The Father who is SPIRIT
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html -------------
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:42-45)
When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical." AMEN
Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. AMEN
Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above." In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born." Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom: "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html ------
Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie
Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again". All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection. We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.
TECH & PRAC MMMM, YEAH IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE ( NA... MORE LIKE IMPOSSIBLE TO MAN) AND NEITHER IS IT TECHNICALLY OR SCIENTIFICALLY POSSIBLE,
its spiritual, all of it
God be with you,
Ray
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Ian,
You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.
In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.
As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."
John
Well Not So Titled ie "Resurrection Paper" as in "Lake of Fire paper" if you get what I mean.. there are some papers with his thoughts in them
;D ;D ;D Well Ian, you are beginning to lose me. The paper I quoted above, how are Ray's thoughts not in it? Besides, Ray's thoughts are not the key thing. The most important things are God's thoughts as clearly expressed by the Scriptures, not our opinions as to what we think the Scriptures say.
hA hA John desparate times hey, plainly, I Have never actually studied what Ray said on resurrection...I study my word I have read thru and check scriptures out which he uses to support certain statements, but never thought , that I need to study Ray and his interpretations
I havnt even read what you posted on behalf of Ray ;D
I'm all about Jesus
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Hi Ian,
If you don’t believe Ray is right on the resurrection, how do you feel as to the rest of Rays teaching ? Is Ray correct on everyone gets saved eventually ?
Does hell exist as taught by Christendom ? Do you feel Ray is mostly wrong or mostly right ?
What do you say about the rest of Rays papers.
Just curious.
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Yes Ian,
Let's hear more about the future of mankind, put in simple terms for the average reader.
Using your understanding of scripture ONLY and while avoiding teaching.
Just the plain facts as you see them.
We can discuss proofs later, please.
Is God loving enough and powerful enough to grant immortality to all who have been born into this world or not? And if not, why not?
Thank you for your patience with me on this request. Indiana Bob
Hi Ian,
If you don’t believe Ray is right on the resurrection, how do you feel as to the rest of Rays teaching ? Is Ray correct on everyone gets saved eventually ?
Does hell exist as taught by Christendom ? Do you feel Ray is mostly wrong or mostly right ?
What do you say about the rest of Rays papers.
Just curious.
-
NO! let's not hear more of Ian's opinion about what's in the Scripture.
Ian, I guess you really don't get it... this forum is for those who have read Ray's material and can agree with at least most of what he taught. The reason this forum was started, 'to discuss Ray articles' and that helps us develop a base of understanding in the Scripture.
Don't even go there about following a man... Ray is who Jesus Christ provided for us. Certainly it is Ray's interpretation of the Scripture and it was by the Holy Spirit in him and in any of us that bring us together in unity. There has to be a unifying base and Ray used the Scripture, guided by that Spirit in him, to give us much instruction on, not just how to 'see' what's in the Scripture, but how to use it for continuing our own studies.
I am amazed that you sit here with us, trying to tell us what is right, when you don't see any need to even read what Ray had to say, and as Ray liked to say, "unbelievable."
mercy, peace and love
Kat