bible-truths.com/forums

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Rick on June 07, 2015, 06:52:05 PM

Title: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Rick on June 07, 2015, 06:52:05 PM

2Pe 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.


What I’m trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?

If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?

Luk 8:27  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent

Mar 5:12  So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."
 
Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?


Job 1:7  The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."

1Pe 5:8  Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ?  :-\
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 07, 2015, 10:33:17 PM

2Pe 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.


What I’m trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?

If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?

Luk 8:27  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent

Mar 5:12  So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."
 
Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?


Job 1:7  The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."

1Pe 5:8  Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ?  :-\

Hi, Rick

Demons are false doctrines. 

2 Peter 2

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked

8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.  Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,

11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.

12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,f while they feast with you.

14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!

15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,

16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.

19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever (not "whoever") overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.   (OVERTAKEN BY, POSSESSED, HELD CAPTIVE?)




God's word says they are chained, doesn't it?  So, no, they have not escaped their chains of darkness.

2 Pet 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned. 




But the gist of what Peter is saying to the believers is this:


2 Pet. 1

5 ....  make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,

7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you PRACTICE (just practice) these qualities (instead of practicing evil) you will never fall.


2 Pet ch. 3

17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.





The Lake of Fire - Part IX

THE LIFE AND MISSION OF SATAN THE SERPENT DEVIL

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:8).

Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html




Satan can try and tempt us to give in to our flesh.    But when we are so grounded and have no desires for the things of the world (POWER, DECEITFUL RICHES (it's not a sin to have money), FAME, RECOGNITION to build up a fragile ego, LOOSE WOMEN because you are insecure, DRUGS, LOTS OF ALCOHOL FOR PURPOSES OF GETTING TOTALLY SMASHED AND TO FEEL UPLIFTED, etc., etc., personally I don't think it's a sin to have a little wine or a beer or whatever to calm down after a hard day at work or whatever, but I won't use it as a crutch and thereby become dependent and it overtakes me, no, uh-uh), this means that we can plainly see the deception in those things and we are DONE with them.  And that's when he (or rather "the worldly" thing that we may be tempted by) loses all power to make us fall (or possess our minds), and so he "flees" from us.  For the time being...

The Lake of Fire - Part IX

THE LIFE AND MISSION OF SATAN THE SERPENT DEVIL


Thank God that Jesus was not intimidated in the slightest by Satan:

"Then says Jesus unto him, Get thee hence SATAN… Then the DEVIL leaves Him…" (Matt. 4:10-11).

Does Satan obey Christ by leaving and never to return? Is this the end of Satan? No. Let’s see what else Luke’s account adds to this drama,

"and when the devil had ended all the temptation [Gk: testing], he departed from Him for a season [Gk: until an opportune time]" (Luke 4:13).

So Satan left our Lord only for the moment.
However, Satan would be at the heels of Jesus wherever He went. After attacking Jesus, Satan attacked His head Apostle, but only Jesus recognized whom it really was talking through His apostle:

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html



So just work on losing all interest in the world, and not needing those things of the world to reinforce your fragile ego, and guess what?  You'll be totally blessed.

Remember, practice makes perfect.

Practice:

perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to i-m-p-r-o-v-e or maintain one's proficiency.
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Kat on June 08, 2015, 12:08:34 AM

Hi Rick,

This is from '23 minutes in Hell,' I think it might be helpful with your questions.

http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html --------------------

No, demons are not angels, and angels are not demons, and there is not one Scripture to support such a theory.

The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon."

Although the King James does not use the word "demon(s)," At numerous places in Scripture the word "daimon"--meaning 'demon' is found. Example, the word "devils" found in Matt. 8:31 is 'daimon' in the Greek manuscripts. Various English Versions translate 'daimon' into "demons" rather than "devils." But "demons/daimons" are never, ever translated "angels." Whoever or whatever the angels of the Devil are, they assuredly are not invisible or visible huge, ugly, deformed, alien monsters, which Bill calls "demons," "chained angels," and "angels of the Devil."

Please notice once more the definition of "angelos"--"an angel, messenger, or PASTOR" (Dr. Strong's Greek Dictionary #32, 'angelos'). How in the world could anyone confuse the hideous-looking zero IQ monsters in Bill's book, with angels, messengers, or pastors. One could possibly get a few back-woods uneducated aboriginals to worship such creatures, but certainly not hundreds and hundreds of millions of educated Christians. If Rev. 12:9 is a true statement from God, then how is it that the two billion Christians in the world are excluded from "...the whole world" which are deceived by the Devil and his angels?
v

Satan deceives the world (except for the "few chosen ELECT" of God) through his own ministers. The Devil's angels are the Devil's ministers, and they are mortal men, not hideous, animalistic, monsters called demons. The "children of the lady" are the "very elect, few," and Satan the Devil has his "children" as well: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8:44).

Now go back to verse 13 and notice who it was that followed Jesus and to whom it was that Jesus addressed: "The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true."

And remember that the Pharisees were the religious leaders of God's church in Judea. But they were not godly men or godly ministers of Jesus, but rather they were the children of their father the Devil. These religious leaders were and still are, "the angels of the Devil"--the "ministers of Satan" (Matt. 25:41 & II Cor. 11:14-15).

Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Kat on June 08, 2015, 12:42:49 AM

I thought I would add this about demons.

http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#wrestle ----------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Jim:

Well, just like almost everything else Christians adopt as truth, their knowledge of demons and spirits is equally eschew.  First, Jim, always remember the basics:

"...for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" (Eph. 6:12).

So it is NOT the physical that is our biggest problem (flesh and blood), being overweight, etc.

Next we must understand that demons are FALSE DOCTRINES -- "doctrines of demons" Paul calls them. So anything that would influence us to believe in, follow, or be persuaded by any such things are demons influences.

So when we speak of "anger" we are in the realm of the spirit. James says, "Whosoever is ANGRY with his brother is a MURDERER"! WOW! "Be angry and SIN NOT -- do not let the sun go down upon your ANGER" is another. 

So being overweight and having uncontrolled anger are two totally different things.  Being overweight is no more a sin than having flat feet. There are thousands of things in the biological makeup of our bodies over which we have and nor can we have control. If one is a total glutton, that is a lust of the flesh, but MANY overweight people eat very little for their size. But anger, that's different. Anger comes from within the man and it can cause one to SIN.

Now then, what do we do with the demons of anger, lust, and other aberrant behavior, cast them out?  Well, if all we had to do was "cast them out," we wouldn't have to "wrestle" with them, would we?

Satan and his demons have their role in God's creation. God Himself has even commissioned LYING spirits to go out and do their dirty work (I Kings 22:22). So demons are real, they are here, and they will be around for a long time.

How should we handle them -- ask the preacher to cast them all out so that we are clean and will never be bothered in any spiritual way again, not to mention having a perfect size body? No, here's what God tells us we should do after telling us that we DO WRESTLE against these forces:

"Therefore take up the panoply [armor] of God that you may be enabled to WITHSTAND in the wicked day, and having effected all, to STAND.  STAND, then, girded about your loins with TRUTH [remember I said demons are FALSE doctrines], with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel [gospel] of peace; with all taking up the large shield of FAITH, by which you WILL BE ABLE TO EXTINGUISH ALL THE FIERY ARROWS OF THE WICKED ONE."

So the truth is that we continue to wrestle and do battle with them -- it is good for us to do so, it MAKES US STRONG in the TRUTH and in our reliance of God's spiritual armor to protect us.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.

Sincerely,

Ray
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 01:00:13 AM
Hi Rick,

I think there is a lot in the answers provided here. I will only add that I believe the messengers that Peter and Jude refer to are not the same as the ministers of satan now who are transformed into ministers of righteousness. I think the ones peter is referencing are of a certain different kind, being spiritual in nature, even similar to the evil spirits God sent out in the old testament or worse. Either way, they are chained up, and I believe that includes to this day.

Wherever Peter and Jude got their inspiration from to say those things, besides being from God, we cannot know now. If there was a book inspired of God before which was written, even the book where the arch angel Micheal rebuked satan over the disputation of moses body, these are now lost. All as God planned though.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 03:24:44 AM
Hi Rick,

I think there is a lot in the answers provided here. I will only add that I believe the messengers that Peter and Jude refer to are not the same as the ministers of satan now who are transformed into ministers of righteousness. I think the ones peter is referencing are of a certain different kind, being spiritual in nature, even similar to the evil spirits God sent out in the old testament or worse. Either way, they are chained up, and I believe that includes to this day.

Wherever Peter and Jude got their inspiration from to say those things, besides being from God, we cannot know now. If there was a book inspired of God before which was written, even the book where the arch angel Micheal rebuked satan over the disputation of moses body, these are now lost. All as God planned though.

God bless,
Alex

I respectfully disagree with you, Alex.

It was the shepherds of Israel spoken of through the OT and who Jesus berated who didn't care about the sheep.  They just used them and took advantage of them and led them astray.  They left their FIRST (most important) estate and did as they pleased.



Ezek. 34

2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?

3 "You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock.

4 "Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them.…
...

Matt 24

45 “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them.

46 If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.

47 I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns.

48 But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’

49 and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk?

50  The master will return unannounced and unexpected,

51 and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matt. 23

14"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation

Matt. 25

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants (ministers) and entrusted to them his property (His Word?).

15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.

...

24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,

25  so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’

26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?

27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.

28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.  (Jeremiah 23)

29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’



Matthew 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?



The Final Judgment

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 

44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’

45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Matt 21

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Ian 155 on June 08, 2015, 05:39:03 AM

2Pe 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.


What I’m trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?

If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?

Luk 8:27  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent

Mar 5:12  So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."
 
Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?


Job 1:7  The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."

1Pe 5:8  Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ?  :-\


the only angles are 30* ,45* 60* and of course.... obtuse angles :) :) :) :) :) :)

just kidding
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 11:28:02 AM
Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Kat on June 08, 2015, 11:59:44 AM

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.

2Peter 2:1  But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

I think it is the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off (at least it has me), but Strong's does say that the word also refers to messengers and PASTORS.

If you think about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, which means hades or the grave. Here's a expert from Ray's LOF 16. D5.

The Greek word "hades," means "imperceptible or unseen," however, to the Greeks this word also represented both the god Hades and the domain of Hades, which was the state of the dead, and underworld. Originally this word did not mean a place of pain and torture. That bit of paganism was borrowed from the Egyptian underworld of Amenti with its lowest realm being Tartaroo where it was taught that there was pain and suffering. http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

And Peter goes on to explain that these Pastors back in the time of Noah certainly died and went to the grave, as only Noah and his family (8 people) were saved from the flood.

2Peter 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

So the grave does reserve/hold a person, you could say in "chains of darkness," the grave certainly is dark, until resurrection and judgment day at Christ's return.

And I think this is much the same that is spoken about in Jude 1. I am thinking Gina is right about about these pastors left their "first" or most important responsibility of serving/shepherding the people or else there would have been more on the ark than just Noah's family, but that was not meant to be. Looking further down in the chapter where Peter mention "angels" again, consider what he is saying there (I'm putting my opinion in parentheses there).

2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
v. 10  and especially those (unjust) who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They (unjust) are presumptuous, self-willed. They (unjust) are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
v. 11  whereas angels (pastors), who are greater in power and might (having positions of authority), do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

I guess this is saying those pastors did nothing in the face of all the wickedness around them, or even took part in it, because they were among those washed away in the flood too. And Peter continues on and on about what he started out speaking on "false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you," I think he made his point very clear, there have always been false teachers/pastors/shepherds. He speaks of back in Noah's day, so from the beginning of recorded Scripture, this age is filled up with darkness.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Anyway just gave my opinions on this for consideration.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 12:10:27 PM

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.

2Peter 2:1  But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

I think it is the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off (at least it has me), but Strong's does say that the word also refers to messengers and PASTORS.

If you think about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, which means hades or the grave. Here's a expert from Ray's LOF 16. D5.

The Greek word "hades," means "imperceptible or unseen," however, to the Greeks this word also represented both the god Hades and the domain of Hades, which was the state of the dead, and underworld. Originally this word did not mean a place of pain and torture. That bit of paganism was borrowed from the Egyptian underworld of Amenti with its lowest realm being Tartaroo where it was taught that there was pain and suffering. http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

And Peter goes on to explain that these Pastors back in the time of Noah certainly died and went to the grave, as only Noah and his family (8 people) were saved from the flood.

2Peter 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

So the grave does reserve/hold a person, you could say in "chains of darkness," the grave certainly is dark, until resurrection and judgment day at Christ's return.

And I think this is much the same that is spoken about in Jude 1. I am thinking Gina is right about about these pastors left their "first" or most important responsibility of serving/shepherding the people or else there would have been more on the ark than just Noah's family, but that was not meant to be. Looking further down in the chapter where Peter mention "angels" again, consider what he is saying there (I'm putting my opinion in parentheses there).

2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
v. 10  and especially those (unjust) who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They (unjust) are presumptuous, self-willed. They (unjust) are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
v. 11  whereas angels (pastors), who are greater in power and might (having positions of authority), do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

I guess this is saying those pastors did nothing in the face of all the wickedness around them, or even took part in it, because they were among those washed away in the flood too. And Peter continues on and on about what he started out speaking on "false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you," I think he made his point very clear, there have always been false teachers/pastors/shepherds. He speaks of back in Noah's day, so from the beginning of recorded Scripture, this age is filled up with darkness.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Anyway just gave my opinions on this for consideration.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

Thanks for your comment. I will add some more food for thought to this discussion. The first I mentioned above. These angels are not in the same place that human's who perish go. They are chained in darkness. They don't sleep in darkness. They are not dead. They are chained in darkness. Peter's words were inspired to not use the grave or sleep/dead for a reason.

You are right to bring up the first verse which helps establish some context but I think we should also pay attention to how peter starts that fourth verse.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4  For [BECAUSE] if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Peter is giving us an example. He is comparing the false prophets of verse 1 to the angels who did not keep their estate of verse 4 but he is not saying those angels are the false prophets. They are similar in that both are in darkness and both have an impending judgement that looms heavy over them.

Here is the word angels again in this context:

2Pe 2:11  Whereas angels, which are greater [than carnal men v10] in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Compare that with:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Is Michael the Archangel a human messanger....? Seems Peter 2:11 and Jude 1:9 are speaking along similar lines but definitely not about human messangers here.

Certainly my own opinions as well :)

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 12:26:44 PM
Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."

2Pe 2:1  But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3  And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5  if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6  if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7  and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8  (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10  and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11  whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14  They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15  Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17  These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18  For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19  They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21  For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22  What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.

I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them   [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]

Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.

Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 01:09:39 PM
Exactly Kat -- that previous verse about false prophets is what I was trying to bring out and then the verses about the people afterwards. 


All the verses were talking about people, and then what?  Peter's going to totally throw in something about "invisible evil spirits"?  Does not make any sense to me to do that.


Who said:  "Who told you to flee (escape) the coming destruction?"

And besides it was prophesied back in Ezekiel what would happen to the evil shepherds, and that's exactly what happened and continues to happen to this day. 

There are people (and false prophets) walking in outer (spiritual) darkness now, aren't they?  They don't think they're in outer darkness, anymore than did the pharisees and chief priests who killed Jesus.

But so what if they don't perceive their own lot?

But that's not even what Peter was getting at.  After Peter gave them a run down of what to do in Chapter 1 to not fall, he then told them what NOT to do in chapter 2 and what would happen to them if they did.

That's all it was about. 

Now go and do it.  You think you can do it?   ha ha  I can hear Ray saying that...  You think you can do it now?  :)
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 01:16:22 PM
Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex



Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you.  You  have no idea what you're talking about.  Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.

Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned.  Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 02:28:56 PM
Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you.  You  have no idea what you're talking about.  Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.

Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned.  Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.

Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.

Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------

"On the day you were created, I placed you beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)

"In the day of your creation they established the anointed cherub’s booth. And I bestow you in the holy mountain of Alueim [God]" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)

"With an anointed cherub as guardian I place you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire" (The New Revised Standard Version)

"With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones" (The New American Bible)

Two things should be abundantly clear from these translations: (1) These verses are certainly a challenge to translate, and (2) The prince of Tyrus was NOT the cherub, himself, but rather the cherub was placed as a guardian BESIDE OR WITH the prince of Tyrus. A further proof that the prince of Tyrus cannot be, himself this cherub, is found in the grammar. Where KJV translates, "Thou art the anointed cherub…" the word translated "Thou" is the Hebrew word "ath" which can be either a pronoun or the object of a verb. But in Ezek. 28:14, it can’t be a pronoun because it is not the same gender as "cherub." The Hebrew word ath is feminine while the Hebrew word kruwg translated cherub, is masculine.

WHAT ARE CHERUBS?

Aren’t cherubs those cut little cubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.

Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).

Cherubim are associated with the mercy seat, the decorations of the tabernacle and later the temple, and are associated with the Throne of God in Ezekiel. The possibility that there is cherubim associated with the throne of world leaders also seem plausible. Whatever their earthly function, there was a cherub associated with the king of Tyrus. He was with or beside the king, but he was not the king, himself, neither was he Satan.[/u]

Next we read a remarkable thing in the KJV in the last part of verse 16 of Ezek. 28:

"By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."

Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can’t be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?

The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.

etc..... See the article for more details.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Gina, I would really appreciate it if you don't throw such wild accusations as "you have no idea what you're talking about." You address a brother like that?

God be with you,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Kat on June 08, 2015, 02:32:33 PM
Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."

2Pe 2:1  But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3  And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5  if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6  if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7  and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8  (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10  and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11  whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14  They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15  Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17  These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18  For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19  They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21  For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22  What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.

I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them   [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]

Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.

Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.


The only place that tartaroo is mention in Scripture is there in 2 Peter 2:4, and Strong's has it G5020 Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades)... hades is the 'state' of being dead or having no perception or consciousnesses, I do not see that as being like a prison for angels.

There is a place that Scripture speaks of a prison or holding place for Satan and you know of it, the "bottomless pit" and that only occurs at the very end of this age.

Rev 20:3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit(G12), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Strong
G12 abussos - depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) “abyss”: - deep, (bottomless) pit.

Maybe Peter used that word "tartaroo" to show how utterly deplorable it is for pastors to abuse their position. But here is an email that speaks about what hades is, so therefore it should apply to tartartoo.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2899.0.html -----

 Ray, I appreciate your time in covering these subjects.....My questions may center around terminology .  With the spirit of the dead Jesus being with God and and with the body bring in hades (grave)

    COMMENT:  But hades is NOT the grave. Hades is the same as sheol in the Hebrew. It is the "state" of the dead, not the grave, or the location of the dead.

     for the 3-3+days prior to resurrection, does the word soul have a meaning (during this period)?

    COMMENT:  Yes, of course, the word soul always has meaning. Does it have an "existence," however? No, that is why it is said to be in "hades" which means "imperceptible." There souls which IS PERCEPTION goes to IMPERCEPTION. Hence, it has no consciousness whatsoever.

     Was the Spirit of Jesus a separate "consciousness" during this period?

    COMMENT:  The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.

    God be with you,

    Ray
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 02:45:40 PM
Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."

2Pe 2:1  But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3  And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5  if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6  if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7  and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8  (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10  and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11  whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14  They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15  Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17  These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18  For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19  They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21  For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22  What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.

I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them   [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]

Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.

Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.


The only place that tartaroo is mention in Scripture is there in 2 Peter 2:4, and Strong's has it G5020 Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades)... hades is the 'state' of being dead or having no perception or consciousnesses, I do not see that as being like a prison for angels.

There is a place that Scripture speaks of a prison or holding place for Satan and you know of it, the "bottomless pit" and that only occurs at the very end of this age.

Rev 20:3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit(G12), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Strong
G12 abussos - depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) “abyss”: - deep, (bottomless) pit.

Maybe Peter used that word "tartaroo" to show how utterly deplorable it is for pastors to abuse their position. But here is an email that speaks about what hades is, so therefore it should apply to tartartoo.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2899.0.html -----

 Ray, I appreciate your time in covering these subjects.....My questions may center around terminology .  With the spirit of the dead Jesus being with God and and with the body bring in hades (grave)

    COMMENT:  But hades is NOT the grave. Hades is the same as sheol in the Hebrew. It is the "state" of the dead, not the grave, or the location of the dead.

     for the 3-3+days prior to resurrection, does the word soul have a meaning (during this period)?

    COMMENT:  Yes, of course, the word soul always has meaning. Does it have an "existence," however? No, that is why it is said to be in "hades" which means "imperceptible." There souls which IS PERCEPTION goes to IMPERCEPTION. Hence, it has no consciousness whatsoever.

     Was the Spirit of Jesus a separate "consciousness" during this period?

    COMMENT:  The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.

    God be with you,

    Ray
Hi Kat,

Why do you assume hades should apply to Tartarus and not the bottomless pit? The bottomless pit is where satan is CHAINED so why not those angels that did not obey as well such as the cherubim who his cast out of the mountain of God? Peter says that those in tartarus are CHAINED similarly.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Now look at peter's statement:
2Pe 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

So because strong assumes that everything in scripture is hell and heaven and relates Tartarus to hades in his definition based on ONE usage we should assume too that Tartarus is related to hades? I don't understand that and perhaps you can clarify for me. Then again maybe it is related to hades but my issue isn't so much with that as it is with Peter and Jude not necesssarily refering to physical human messengers as much as spiritual messengers who were not obedient. I don't want to necessarily argue about the nitty gritty of what exactly is Tartarus as it appears to be open to interpretation. My original point was more with the nature of those messengers.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 03:02:27 PM
Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you.  You  have no idea what you're talking about.  Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.

Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned.  Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.

Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.

Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------

"On the day you were created, I placed you beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)

"In the day of your creation they established the anointed cherub’s booth. And I bestow you in the holy mountain of Alueim [God]" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)

"With an anointed cherub as guardian I place you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire" (The New Revised Standard Version)

"With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones" (The New American Bible)

Two things should be abundantly clear from these translations: (1) These verses are certainly a challenge to translate, and (2) The prince of Tyrus was NOT the cherub, himself, but rather the cherub was placed as a guardian BESIDE OR WITH the prince of Tyrus. A further proof that the prince of Tyrus cannot be, himself this cherub, is found in the grammar. Where KJV translates, "Thou art the anointed cherub…" the word translated "Thou" is the Hebrew word "ath" which can be either a pronoun or the object of a verb. But in Ezek. 28:14, it can’t be a pronoun because it is not the same gender as "cherub." The Hebrew word ath is feminine while the Hebrew word kruwg translated cherub, is masculine.

WHAT ARE CHERUBS?

Aren’t cherubs those cut little cubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.

Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).

Cherubim are associated with the mercy seat, the decorations of the tabernacle and later the temple, and are associated with the Throne of God in Ezekiel. The possibility that there is cherubim associated with the throne of world leaders also seem plausible. Whatever their earthly function, there was a cherub associated with the king of Tyrus. He was with or beside the king, but he was not the king, himself, neither was he Satan.[/u]

Next we read a remarkable thing in the KJV in the last part of verse 16 of Ezek. 28:

"By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."

Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can’t be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?

The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.

etc..... See the article for more details.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Gina, I would really appreciate it if you don't throw such wild accusations as "you have no idea what you're talking about." You address a brother like that?

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, you're trying to pull a fast one, you are?  This is what you said:


Quote
Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.





You made it clear that you thought the "cherubs" were "evil spirits" and angels were "evil spirits" and the "CHERUB" was cast out.   


Ray said:   
Quote
The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.



However, earlier you said:

Quote
Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.  Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.

The King was cast out, NOT the cherub.  The King was on the high mountain of God, therefore the King was a minister (angel) of God.  And a FALSE one at that.

You're a sneaky one.  I don't like your tactics at all.  Well, it's like Ray said:  YOU CAN'T CORNER A SNAKE IN A BRIAR PATCH! 
Now, go do what you ALWAYS DO when you've completely screwed up:  Go put a song up in the Light-hearted banter section or start another thread to bury the truth, as if you could.  ha-ha!

This is my last reply to you, Alex.
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Kat on June 08, 2015, 03:28:32 PM
Well Alex, I began thinking tartaroo might also be the state of being dead, because it is defined as a part of hades, and since the word used as "angels" can be speaking of men or pastors, that fits into the whole passage of what Peter is speaking about. I have struggled looking at the passage for a long time, and that is the only way it really seems to make sense for me.

Besides 2 Peter and 1 Jude (that I believe is speaking of the same thing) there is no other mention of angels/spirits being held in prison in this age and there is no explanation anywhere in Scripture as to why this would be done. No, there's just Christ casting the devil (and his angels?) into the bottomless pit when He returns, nothing else about it being before that.

Anyway I do not hold this as a n absolute truth, no it's just my take on this at this time and have no desire to stir up contention because of it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 03:50:01 PM


The King was cast out, NOT the cherub.  The King was on the high mountain of God, therefore the King was a minister (angel) of God.  And a FALSE one at that.

You're a sneaky one.  I don't like your tactics at all.  Well, it's like Ray said:  YOU CAN'T CORNER A SNAKE IN A BRIAR PATCH! 
Now, go do what you ALWAYS DO when you've completely screwed up:  Go put a song up in the Light-hearted banter section or start another thread to bury the truth, as if you could.  ha-ha!

This is my last reply to you, Alex.
Gina,

First off, I quoted ray because you stated that ray taught Ezekiel 28:16 to be about men who sinned. I hope this is plainly evident now not to be the case.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee [King of Tyre] as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

No one is denying the King was cast off from the mountain of God. I'm talking about the Cherub who was placed beside the King of Tyre who was ALSO removed/destroyed FROM the mist of the stones of fire. Ray points out the same thing but his focus is the first part of the statement to prove that the King of Tyre and Cherub are two different beings. Both are being judged here though.

The rest of your accusations are as widly absurd and false as what I just exposed as innacurate.

Cherubim are similar in certain ways to spirits (As they are spirit beings), be they evil or good, and different in other's which I stated in my first address to Rick.

Ray identifies cherubim as messengers as well as spirit creatures and facing towards the mercy seat desiring to look into things. You can find that in the quote I gave you. An angel is nothing more than a messenger. Ray also said that these same messengers (cherubim) are divded, good on one side and, "wicked" is the term he uses, on the other. He surmises this from I Kings 22:19.

Just so you know, Peter himself calls the cherubim angels too.

------------------------------------------

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

it is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE

---------------------------------------

You are tottaly and completely out of line Gina.

In Christ,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 03:59:04 PM
Well Alex, I began thinking tartaroo might also be the state of being dead, because it is defined as a part of hades, and since the word used as "angels" can be speaking of men or pastors, that fits into the whole passage of what Peter is speaking about. I have struggled looking at the passage for a long time, and that is the only way it really seems to make sense for me.

Besides 2 Peter and 1 Jude (that I believe is speaking of the same thing) there is no other mention of angels/spirits being held in prison in this age and there is no explanation anywhere in Scripture as to why this would be done. No, there's just Christ casting the devil (and his angels?) into the bottomless pit when He returns, nothing else about it being before that.

Anyway I do not hold this as a n absolute truth, no it's just my take on this at this time and have no desire to stir up contention because of it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I'm completely fine with leaving it open to interpretation. I do believe it to be a thing of very minor consequence and not worth contention. I was merely offering my perspective to rick on top of the other additions that were provided in my original address.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 04:17:10 PM
Gina,

It's not worth arguing with you but for the sake of those less learned I will try and make this as concise and to the point as possible.

Ray makes it abundantly clear that the Cherub and King of Tyre are two different beings.

Ez 28:14 "On the day you were created, I placed you [King of Tyre] beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)

So pay attention, there are two beings here in similar location. Now The King of Tyre is expelled from the mountain of God while the Cherub is cast out from among the fiery stones.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee [King of Tyre] as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Maybe another translation will help?

Ezekiel 28:14 "...So I expelled you in disgrace from the mountain of God, and banished you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones." Holman

Ezekiel 28:14 "...So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."  New International Version

You even said yourself the King of Tyre is not the Cherub so why can't you see what is happening to the king of tyre and the guardian cherub?

The passage is obscure and variation in translations exist but the vast majority of translations agree that the King of Tyre is expelled from God's mountain and the Cherub is 'destroyed' or 'removed' from among the fiery stones. I believe one translation shows the Cherub as doing the driving out but that is one of many who show the complete opposite.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

In Christ,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 04:21:59 PM
Hi, Rick

The big take away from all of this is:  Don't follow after the lawlessness and wickedness of others.  Don't worry about where those demons are.  If you are doing what Peter said to do, adding to your faith, you will never fall.
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 08, 2015, 05:11:43 PM
....  In case it got buried, here's what Peter is saying:

2 Pet. 1

5 ....  make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,

7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you PRACTICE (just practice) these qualities (instead of practicing evil) you will NEVER fall.   



What's more fascinating to you, trying to figure out where the demons are?  Or what Peter says to do:


What Peter is saying is that when we practice these qualities, just practicing them, you will NEVER FALL.  WOW!
So, just by PRACTICING these qualities, we will NEVER fall.

Jesus' words were so true:  Learn of me because I'm humble.  My yoke is easy and my burden is light.  How hard can it be to just practice these things?




Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Rick on June 08, 2015, 08:57:59 PM
Thanks Gina,


There are some great answers here, I clearly see in me much needs to be unlearned.  I understand now that demons are false doctrines also they can be false teachers as well as false prophets

Christendom and movies from Hollywood has made a mockery of my understanding with their demons.


Hello Kat,

Your input which I copied and pasted below versifies what Gina is also suggesting is a great confirmation for me and also anyone else who’s understanding is inaccurate about demons as mine was.
 
The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon.

 The Devil's angels are the Devil's ministers, and they are mortal men


Next we must understand that demons are FALSE DOCTRINES -- "doctrines of demons" Paul calls them. So anything that would influence us to believe in, follow, or be persuaded by any such things are demons influences.

Alex

Your right to say ( I think there is a lot in the answers provided here )
.

Kat gave the Greek word meaning word # 32 definition ( Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor ) now that much has been cleared up for me but I find I’m still confused about  Luk 8:27 when I read this part of the verse (  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him )


from what I’m understanding in this thread and the great replies I received and then applied this understanding to Luk 8: 27 that verse would render (  Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had false information in him ) or if I use angle then it would render ( Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had angles in him )

You see my problem with either rendering, part of my understanding is still lacking here.  ???
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 09:17:15 PM
Hi Rick,

I feel like you're trading one extreme perspective for another. Yes, demons can be false doctrines, but they aren't only false doctrins. Ray once said that he had exercised out seven demons from a woman with the help of other church goers. The demons weren't very clever as they had simple names like, "Bok, Boook" etc... I can't find the specific audio where he goes into detail on that exercosim but he does reference it in an email below briefly.

Ray believes there are demons (and not just as doctrine!) and mentions them numerous times. Here's a few emails from Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2540.0.html -------

Dear Michelle:
The only spirits "roaming around" are demons, not the spirits of DEAD people.

God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html ----

Dear Brenda:
ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers."  Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2).  If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1910.0.html -------

Dear Chris:

    There have been probably 5 to 10 thousand volumes written on demons and exorcism. It is not likely that I can explain this subject in five to ten sentences.

    There is "possession" and there is "obsession."  Many people are obsessed with demons and evil spirits rather than being actually possessed and totally out of control mentally.

    Catholic exorcism is more superstition than Scriptural.  Protestant ministers try to shout and SCREAM them out of people.  I had only a few personal experiences with people who were demonized.  With one elderly woman we prayed and one by one Jesus casted out a half dozen or so demons--each with his own name, I might add.

    The truth is that we "wrestle against such spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12).  It is part of our Christian walk of faith.

    The world is filled with "spirits of antichrist."  Many Christians worship these spirits.  I cast out dozens and dozens of these spirits of antichrist on our bible-truth.com site, and many pastors, theologians, and Christians hate and despise me for doing it. They love these evil spirits. But always remember, that if you have the Spirit of God in you, then:

    "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4).

    God be with you,

    Ray


------------------------------------

I can think of scriptural more examples of things we would consider demons that are certainly not pastors or false doctrines. Remember the messenger from satan that beat paul over the head with 'inordinate blows?'

You need to try and be a bit more fluid in your understanding and apply all you've learned to all of scripture. Everything is one. Don't be so rigid and just remember some basic truths. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established, the sum of God's Word is truth, and no verse is at all becoming its own interpretation. Most importantly, Remember, By God's spirit alone and only can any of this be understood by anyone. Obedience is key!

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 09:35:08 PM
Just to add to what Alex just posted:

Use a 'translation' and not a 'paraphrase' when you are studying.  That's not explicitly directed at you, but to anybody who wants to study these things out.  It's still not 'easy' and isn't meant to be, but the WORDS of scripture are inspired and with a translation (even if it's not always a good one) you have a basis for study that a paraphrase can't give you. 

Luk 8:27  And as he got out of the ship on the land, a certain man out of the city met him, who had demons a long time, and put on no clothes, and did not abide in a house, but in the tombs.

That's from Darby's translation.  He used "demons" because that's a close translation/transliteration of the inspired Greek word.  He didn't use "angels", "spirits" or "devils". 

I only want to add this:  If a "demon" is a false doctrine (and I do believe it is) and it has not "possessed" you, controlled your thoughts and actions, affected the quality of your life, etc., then you have been blessed not to experience the full power of it.  And all of them do have names...theologians love to name them. 

The poor man mentioned in the passage didn't just have some "wrong information", he lived under it's control and for a long time.

Conversely, if "truth" has not possessed you, impacted your thoughts and actions, affected the quality of your life, etc, etc,, then you haven't experienced the full power of it, just ticked the 'right' box.  HE is the Truth and He lives. 

Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 09:45:05 PM
Alex, I remember the messenger of Satan who delivered inordinate blows to Paul.

http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html 

"Paul’s splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul’s transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh.")"

My goodness, that sounds familiar, though for the first 25 years, in my life, the messenger of Satan got the best of me.

MESSENGER OF SATAN, not a demon.  And I reckon a messenger of Satan can and does have multiple "mouths" and ministers just as the Word of God had multiple prophets and servants and 'examples'.



Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 09:52:38 PM
Alex, I remember the messenger of Satan who delivered inordinate blows to Paul.

http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html 

"Paul’s splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul’s transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh.")"

My goodness, that sounds familiar, though for the first 25 years, in my life, the messenger of Satan got the best of me.

MESSENGER OF SATAN, not a demon.  And I reckon a messenger of Satan can and does have multiple "mouths" and ministers just as the Word of God had multiple prophets and servants and 'examples'.

Yup and here are some of those things he suffered as ray put it because of this messenger:

II Cor. 11:22-28. Jails, blows, deaths, beatings, shipwrecks, stoning, and constant dangers of every kind, day after day, year after year, decade after decade! Who can comprehend such a life? Who could ever endure such a life? After the first scourging and the second shipwreck, I believe I would throw in the towel.

Now show me a false doctrine that can conjure up a storm! Maybe a pastor? Not likely! The greek word for demon is not used here but it is certainly an evil messenger and as ray said "if these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS." Amen.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 09:56:23 PM
No Alex, he suffered those things first because he was out there preaching the Gospel.  Shipwrecks, storms, etc. were NOT the works of this "messenger of Satan".  INORDINATE BLOWS were.  Read it again.
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Kat on June 08, 2015, 09:56:50 PM

Hi Rick,

This is a complex topic, there are no simple answers. But I believe all of this discussion has brought out some good points to be considered and has been helpful.

Here are a few more places Ray spoke on this, that may help you find a few more pieces of the puzzle. And I found what Alex was speaking of where Ray spoke of an experience he had, that was from the '07 Nashville conference 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?' It's the last one down.

http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#wrestle ----------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Jim:

Well, just like almost everything else Christians adopt as truth, their knowledge of demons and spirits is equally eschew.  First, Jim, always remember the basics:

"...for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" (Eph. 6:12).

So it is NOT the physical that is our biggest problem (flesh and blood), being overweight, etc.

Next we must understand that demons are FALSE DOCTRINES -- "doctrines of demons" Paul calls them. So anything that would influence us to believe in, follow, or be persuaded by any such things are demons influences.

So when we speak of "anger" we are in the realm of the spirit. James says, "Whosoever is ANGRY with his brother is a MURDERER"! WOW! "Be angry and SIN NOT -- do not let the sun go down upon your ANGER" is another. 

So being overweight and having uncontrolled anger are two totally different things.  Being overweight is no more a sin than having flat feet. There are thousands of things in the biological makeup of our bodies over which we have and nor can we have control. If one is a total glutton, that is a lust of the flesh, but MANY overweight people eat very little for their size. But anger, that's different. Anger comes from within the man and it can cause one to SIN.

Now then, what do we do with the demons of anger, lust, and other aberrant behavior, cast them out?  Well, if all we had to do was "cast them out," we wouldn't have to "wrestle" with them, would we?

Satan and his demons have their role in God's creation. God Himself has even commissioned LYING spirits to go out and do their dirty work (I Kings 22:22). So demons are real, they are here, and they will be around for a long time.

How should we handle them -- ask the preacher to cast them all out so that we are clean and will never be bothered in any spiritual way again, not to mention having a perfect size body? No, here's what God tells us we should do after telling us that we DO WRESTLE against these forces:

"Therefore take up the panoply [armor] of God that you may be enabled to WITHSTAND in the wicked day, and having effected all, to STAND.  STAND, then, girded about your loins with TRUTH [remember I said demons are FALSE doctrines], with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel [gospel] of peace; with all taking up the large shield of FAITH, by which you WILL BE ABLE TO EXTINGUISH ALL THE FIERY ARROWS OF THE WICKED ONE."

So the truth is that we continue to wrestle and do battle with them -- it is good for us to do so, it MAKES US STRONG in the TRUTH and in our reliance of God's spiritual armor to protect us.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html -------------------------------------

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."

Christ’s disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man’s heaven and not God’s. No ‘man,’ no ‘carnal man’ has ever ascended into God’s heaven of spirit,

"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html -------------

ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers."  Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2).  If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg37590.html#msg37590 ---

Somebody ask me last week about demons. There really are these things. I’ve had a little experience and I know some of them by name. 

My friend, Eliot from Brooklyn, we went to college together. I was living in Mobile at the time, I had moved away for 20 years, then came back. We were going to meet at Mt. Pocono, because there was a large church up there. We were in Worldwide and they had a festival up there, so I was going to meet Eliot there. It was one of those spooky nights. By the time the last service was over and with the fellowshipping. The sun was going down, it got dark early and it was raining and foggy. 

One of the ministers came up to Eliot and me and ask us to come to a side room, ‘We have a little problem.’ We said okay, we’ll help and went with him. So in the room there was about 5 of us and there was this women. She was about 75 years old, with gray hair, a little on the hefty side. She was acting strange. So we ask what was going on, and he said, ‘well we think Anne is having a problem.’ So we were gathered around and Anne was looking a little strange, she would snarl her face up and say, ‘I know who you are.’ This was a 75 year old woman, with gray hair and she is talking like a monster, you know. We said, okay we know what we got here. These things would take her over and she would get violent and wanted to attack us. There were five strong men, in our 30’s trying to hold her down. 

This was a 75 year old lady, each of us had one arm one leg, she was just violent. We would ask, ‘who are you?’ She would just snarl and then she would give us a name. We didn’t know, so we would just command these things to come out, in the name of Jesus Christ. Then she would settle down and be like, ‘what are you all doing?’ We’d say, well you’re not feeling to good Anne, ‘well, what’s wrong?’ You are just not feeling good right now. Then her face would snarl up and she would start yelling at us.  We would say, who are you?  It’s kind of comical now, I don’t think that demons are smart. I remember that at one point there was one, I did know them all, but I started to forget them. But this one was named Bok, and we cast out Bok.  Then we cast out a bunch of others. So one after the other, they would just take her and we’d cast them out, then she would just settle down and be fine. She would say, ‘what’s wrong, why am I on the floor?’ She didn’t know what was happening.  We would ask each one’s name and it was a different demon. One time I ask who are you, and it said ‘Bouk,’ we said wait a minute we just cast you out, it said, ‘no, that was Bok, I’m Bouk.’ I’m serious. 

We were there for an hour or two, casting out demons. Some of them just would not come out, it said, ‘the master would be very angry.’  We ask who is the master, it said, ‘ Beelzebub is the master.’ They didn’t want to come out. Then she would settle down for a while. Then this one, we said who are you, it said ‘no’ we said we command you in the name of Jesus Christ what is your name, ‘no’ we said we command you, you have to tell us, ‘my name is no.’ She would settle down and then another would take her over and she would want to attack us and kill us. I tell you by the time we were done, it was enervating. We knew we were in a different realm. We ask them questions and we ask them about stuff, we knew about to see if they knew about it. So this stuff is real. This is not fairy land or the wizard of Oz, this stuff really does exist. They're spirits in the air.

It says in Hebrews you better watch how you treat strangers, because you might be entertaining an angel unaware, you know. Now I don’t know if a demon can manifest themselves as human. But I don’t see any examples of that.

I only tell you these things so you will understand that it is bizarre. All this stuff, it’s real. It’s real, because we are here. Many times I’ve said if I wasn’t here, I just wouldn’t believe any of this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 10:02:56 PM
No Alex, he suffered those things first because he was out there preaching the Gospel.  Shipwrecks, storms, etc. were NOT the works of this "messenger of Satan".  INORDINATE BLOWS were.  Read it again.

Hi Dave,

I thought the "blows" was those events? Are not each one of those a blow to paul? You mean paul was literaly beat over the head? O.o

From The article:

"Buffeting" comes from the Greek word kol aph iz’o = CHASTEN-FROM. It means: "to rap with the fist" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 43. Webster’s, buffet, (bufit) n. a blow. "A blow." Now where have we seen that before?

II Cor. 11:23--"...in blows inordinately..."

Again, Webster’s New World Dictionary, blow n. 1 a hard hit, as with the fist, 2 a sudden attack 3 a sudden calamity; shock.

Webster’s Twenteth-Century Dictionary gives us an even broader definition: buffeting, n. 1. A striking with the hands. 2. A succession of blows; strife; opposition; adversity.

So now we have a good idea of the meaning of this word "buffet"--A hard hit (especially to the face,) sudden attack, sudden calamity, shock, succession of blows, strife, opposition, and adversity. Why would Paul call all this pain and calamity "a splinter?" A splinter seems rather mild compared to the miseries that define buffet. That’s because Paul is not speaking of intensity when he speaks of a "splinter," but rather the incessantness of a splinter. The pain and aggravation is constant. It never goes away. It plagues one with every move until the splinter is removed.

The idiomatic expression "a splinter in my flesh" is still in popular usage. We alter it slightly to "a thorn in my flesh" or "a thorn in my side." We say things like: "Jack as been a thorn in my side ever since he came to work here."

The pain that Paul suffered from his hundreds of trials was obviously very intense. However, an analogy of a "splinter in the flesh" is not a description of intensity, but rather of its uninterrupted, nonstop, persistence. Paul suffered by buffeting for fourteen years PRIOR to his writing II Corinthians, and probably another eleven years after writing II Corinthians, seeing that God never did remove it from him ("Sufficient for you is My grace...").

Imagine twenty-five years of such suffering by being buffeted by a messenger of Satan. Why so much? Why so severe? Why so long?


---------------------------------------------------
Ray seems to tie the "splinter in the flesh" of that paragraph I bolded which is directly related to the messenger of satan and his blows back to the many trials Paul suffered and would continue to suffer all his life. He says its not the intensity of them but rather the ever constant occurrence of those trials that makes them like a splinter in the flesh. He even says he suffered these things for fourteen years PRIOR to the writting of Cor II which you said was instead because of his preaching the gospel.

So are you sure?

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 10:15:42 PM
Just read it again.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. 

The way I read it there is a distinction between all of those other trials and the "inordinate blows/stripes" delivered by the Messenger of Satan.  Shipwrecks are not storms.  Beatings are not imprisonment.  Inordinate blows are not occasional trials and troubles--all of those can happen to anybody, and do.  "Inordinate blows" were the "splinter in the flesh" by the Messenger of Satan were in answer to the transcendence of his vision.  That's not common to every Tom, Dick, and Mary.

"We are now left with just one category in a class all of its own. "... in blows inordinately ..." (Verse 23).

Only the trial of "blows" does Paul label "inordinately." Why? Is there something unique about this particular category of trial (blows?) Yes there is!"

I'm not suggesting that the other trials were ALL simply the result of 'bad misfortune'.  Some have very much to do with his preaching.  The Jews didn't beat him to rob him, after all.  Some, on the other hand, were more common evils God intended for good to humble Paul and to test him.  But they aren't the "inordinate blows/stripes" that are contrasted with the "abundance"/transcendence of the revelation that is his 'splinter in the flesh'.

Taken as a whole?  Perhaps.  Each a part of the whole?  Maybe.  But it still seems to me that these 'blows/stripes' (his 'splinter in the flesh'=messenger of Satan, given to him by God are in a category alone.         
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 10:31:31 PM
Just read it again.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  But the way I read it there is a distinction between all of those other trials and the "inordinate blows" delivered by the Messenger of Satan.  Shipwrecks are not storms.  Beatings are not imprisonment.  Inordinate blows are not occasional trials and troubles--all of those can happen to anybody, and do.  "Inordinate blows" by the Messenger of Satan were the result of the transcendence of his vision.  That's not common to every Tom, Dick, and Mary.

Hi Dave,

I did read it again.

Ray's intro to all this seems to be setting up the opposite argument. He makes it clear the amount of trials paul suffered were not occasional let alone common to every body which made it all very bizarre and abnormal. Let me quote it for you here:

---------------------------------------------------------
PAUL’S BIZARRE LIFE

No one in the history of the world has ever lived a life as Paul did. Read II Cor. 11:22-28. Jails, blows, deaths, beatings, shipwrecks, stoning, and constant dangers of every kind, day after day, year after year, decade after decade! Who can comprehend such a life? Who could ever endure such a life? After the first scourging and the second shipwreck, I believe I would throw in the towel.

Some years ago, I meditated on the incredible hardships that Paul endured while taking the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations. Clearly, (in the relative world,) time and chance and circumstance would never produce the plethora of catastrophes Paul faced daily.

Imagine this. You return home from a three-day business trip to Puerto Rico. In shock, your wife greets your tattered body at the door. "What happened to you?" she asks.

"Well dear, after disembarking in Puerto Rico I was dragged back into an alley where several men beat and robbed me. They even took my clothing. I stumbled back to the main street in my underwear, where police promptly arrested me for indecent exposure. They took me to jail. After verifying my identity and passage on the ship, they let me go the next day. I acquired a new credit card at a local bank. A small clinic charged me $3500 to clean and bandage a few flesh wounds. I didn’t call you for fear you would panic.

I didn’t attend my business meetings. I lost a big account for my company. I went to the beach to relax and heal. The second day I took a swim and was stung by several jellyfish. I was again taken to a doctor. The third day I boarded ship to return to Miami. Midway home, the ship sank. There were sharks everywhere, but thank God, the Coast Guard arrived in a few hours."

All would agree, that that would be just "too much." Not for Paul, however.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ray seems to be arguing about the FREQUENCY with which Paul suffered these things. THAT was the inordinate (EXCESSIVE) blows. A blow can be a calamity. I always understood it as the reason Paul suffered so much the way he did was because that messenger was always there lurking and waiting to hit Paul with the next "blow." However, God used this to keep Paul humble for his revelation and much like Satan who destroyed almost everything Job had but could not claim Job's life, God did not allow the messenger to actually take Paul's life because God had plans for Paul.

Towards the bottom of the article ray states:

---------------------------------------------------------

We have to understand that Paul could not live normally, by just expecting a setback or trial from time to time as circumstances would allow. No. Paul traveled in foreign lands for years, fully conscious of the fact that this appointed messenger of Satan was always there, like a sniper in the dark, ready to suddenly pounce on Paul with blows of every description and severity of pain and agony. And how often did these things happen to Paul? Almost too often, and too much--INORDINATELY!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now I don't mean to mock dave at all, but what does blows of every description mean if not the various frequent trials of all sorts paul was experiencing? Does it mean a backhand to the face as opposed to the fist to the face as opposed to the palm to the face? I mean... again... i'm not trying to mock but I hope you see what I mean by not understanding the meaning of blows if it isn't the trials?

It Certainly makes sense to me for it to be the various calamities that befell Paul.

I agree that regardless of what the specifics of the blows were, the messenger of Satan is not common to everyone.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Kat on June 08, 2015, 11:03:26 PM

2Co 12:7  And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

Hi Alex, I will say it really depends on what you believe/understand that an messenger of Satan is capable of. In my research I'm convinced that these spirits/demons or whatever they should be called, could indeed inflict literal blows... not that they became physical, but able to somehow project energy in a way to cause what could be felt and do some harm. And I believe that is what Paul was speaking of, being literally attacked by a spiritual entity. Just wanted to add that to this discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 11:19:41 PM
Lest you think I'm just picking a theological bone, there aren't many of us who have suffered the things Paul suffered in a physical sense.  But everyone who has heard and is obeying the last call of Jesus to "come out of her, my people" is experiencing to some degree this God-given, messenger of Satan, 'thorn in the flesh' in relationship with the 'transcendence/highness' of what we've been graced to 'see'.  See my 'tagline/signature' below.  We're told not to be surprised, and to rejoice.  It may get worse before it gets better.

Paul went on to 'glory in his weakness'.  Despite some folk's obsession with the negative, there is a definite up-side to weakness.  God give us the faith and wisdom to see it, because everyone is going to live it.   
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 11:21:35 PM
Kat and Dave,

Excellent Additions from both of you on this matter and I will remain open minded to both perspectives regarding pauls splinter in the flesh. I see no harm in understanding it either way. I think the agreement is this messenger was evil but ultimately God used it for pauls benefit.

My point in bringing it up along with Ray's experiences (and thank you Kat for finding that audio reference) and other emails was merely to add greater depth to this discussion and remind everyone that not all demons are false doctrines and not all messengers/angels are literal human pastors/ false prophets.

There is a whole heavenly host like the sons of God who shouted for Joy, the morning stars which sang, cherubims, arch angels by name, messengers (angels), demons, evil spirits etc....

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 11:33:06 PM
Believe what you want.  All I really want to ask of you is to let the words God inspired inform you, and not the 'topic' or doctrine 'about' demons.  Hal Lindsey messed me up enough.   
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Rick on June 08, 2015, 11:36:05 PM
Hi Rick,

I feel like you're trading one extreme perspective for another. Yes, demons can be false doctrines, but they aren't only false doctrins. Ray once said that he had exercised out seven demons from a woman with the help of other church goers. The demons weren't very clever as they had simple names like, "Bok, Boook" etc... I can't find the specific audio where he goes into detail on that exercosim but he does reference it in an email below briefly.


Hi Alex,

The reason I had posted this thread is because when I’m reading about these people who are possessed by demons in the gospel and remembering 2Pe 2:4 my initial thought was had some angles that kept not their first estate somehow become free and are these the ones who were possessing these people spoken of in the four gospels.

After reading all the replies given in this thread concerning demons and my understanding being contrary to those replies about what demons are I started thinking my understanding basically come from what I heard in Christendom and from horror movies I watch years ago and not from this website and was willing to let that understanding go but now this information you given about Ray dealing with demons assures me I was right in my thinking but now my understanding has expanded including false doctrine, teachers and false prophets also.

But still I would like to know if the angles who left their first estate are still chained there then who are these others that God has not chained in darkness until judgement ?

Perhaps my thinking is limited but if the angles ( messengers of God ) the ones that did not leave their first estate are still in God’s service and the angles that kept not their first estate are still bound and the only other living entities are we human beings and this should account for all living entities then who are these who possess people ?  :-\
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on June 09, 2015, 12:13:52 AM
Sure Rick, not a problem. I've quite enjoyed the thread to be honest. I think its great to discuss these things. Iron sharpens Iron.

I can't tell you what to believe. There is a ton of scripture on this and there really isn't any nailing it down one way or another. Like I said, you can't be so rigid in your thinking. Peter didn't say ALL the angels that left their fist estate are chained. You also have to consider Kat and Gina's perspective too that these angels are nothing more than human messengers. I gave you a good example in the old testatement with the cherubim that God banished from among the fiery stones. There is a huge heavenly host. Ray talks about it being devided with good cherubim one one side and the wicked cherubim on the other. There are arch angels. There are evil spirits of which examples exist in the OT of them which could include wicked cherubim or demons because "evil spirits" is very non specific.

Like I said, Jude and Peter may have been quoting a book that no longer exists. Much like the book of Jasher in the old testament which does not exist for us anymore but is cited in Samuel.

Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

2 Samuel 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)

The book of Samuel the seer as well as the book of nathan the prophet.

1 Chronicles 29:29  Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,

2 Chronicles 9:29  Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

Visions of Iddo the Seer....

2 Chronicles 9:29  Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

This account from Jude is no where to be found in the scripture we have as well...

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

And the list goes on.

So these kinds of information we don't have now because God simply does not want us to have them for whatever reason. Some things may very well remain obscure until the resurrection or beyond but eventually all will be made clear. I think there is enough to establish some basic principles about the spiritual realm but also enough obscurity for us to have some disagreements.

Have some peace of mind my brother, none of us knows all these things, we see in part through a murky glass.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 01:30:02 AM
Lest you think I'm just picking a theological bone, there aren't many of us who have suffered the things Paul suffered in a physical sense.  But everyone who has heard and is obeying the last call of Jesus to "come out of her, my people" is experiencing to some degree this God-given, messenger of Satan, 'thorn in the flesh' in relationship with the 'transcendence/highness' of what we've been graced to 'see'.  See my 'tagline/signature' below.  We're told not to be surprised, and to rejoice.  It may get worse before it gets better.

Paul went on to 'glory in his weakness'.  Despite some folk's obsession with the negative, there is a definite up-side to weakness.  God give us the faith and wisdom to see it, because everyone is going to live it.   

Hi, Dave


"My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

Power is perfected in weakness.  How could we ever see Christ's power coming through a "strong" person?  Paul as the pharisee Saul was pretty sure of himself and "weaknesses and insults and persecutions and distresses" were not on his "glory wall" of achievements. 

The fact that Paul, as egotistical as he used to be, was now glad to go through all that in order to be able to spread the good news, 
And the fact that he had still had powers from his days as a pharisee, but put them to the side and did not rely on them at all to "save himself," tells me he was not lying about what and Who he saw.   He, like Christ, had a lot of power as a pharisee and he could have called all that off and chucked everything to the side.  But he was so convinced of what he saw in that third heaven state he was in, he took all the distress and weaknesses and basically said, meh~   Wow. 
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Joel on June 09, 2015, 02:29:52 AM
The way I see it all the things that happened to Paul were all ordered of the Lord.

Acts 9:15-16- But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Saul must have felt like a thorn in the flesh to the early members of the Church, before he was converted by the Lord himself. His main gold no doubt was to devour, and destroy anyone that were members of the body of Christ at that time. He for sure persecuted them, and buffeted them with many hurtful blows. (breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the LORD,) Acts 9:1

Joel
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 04:24:09 AM
The way I see it all the things that happened to Paul were all ordered of the Lord.

Acts 9:15-16- But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great tings he must suffer for my name's sake.

Saul must have felt like a thorn in the flesh to the early members of the Church, before he was converted by the Lord himself. His main gold no doubt was to devour, and destroy anyone that were members of the body of Christ at that time. He for sure persecuted them, and buffeted them with many hurtful blows. (breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the LORD,) Acts 9:1

Joel


Good points, Joel.  I just thought of something.  (Sorry for the long post, and you can delete it if I'm out of line or whatever.  I won't object.)

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the messenger of Satan was there reminding him of everything he had done to those innocent Christians as a carnal minded pharisee. 

I hardly think a spiritual messenger "or creature" could literally knock a physical person upside the head.  If that is the case, then it was a literal (physical) messenger of Satan.

I believe the spiritual messenger ("one who doesn't teach" per Ray) was there at every turn to harass and aggravate Paul into recalling all the evil he had done as a carnally minded pharisee.  Probably saying things like, "how undeserving you are to be chosen of God." 

I can just imagine the memories that must have come to Paul's mind without warning.  He finally gets a breather and here comes a bad memory from his past when he was operating according to the the flesh.....    ooooohhh

And here comes another one....    ooouch that hurt.


And another...... uuuuuuhhhh

And another and another and another.... nonstop!

Hey, Paul, here's a memory of Stephen being stoned and you holding the others' coats....  Oh, wait -- don't you remember the time you were harassing all those Christians and all the stupid things you used to say to them?  Ouch!

These weren't insults.  They were truthful reminders.  Satan and his messenger don't always lie, as Ray pointed out  -- "All these kingdoms I will give you...."

Messengers/Cherubims are "Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings."    It's tempting to imagine these "spiritual" cherubim with literal "wings."

They can't be literal wings on a spiritual "messenger."   Literal "blows" to the literal head coming from a spiritual WING?!
If spiritual creatures can't be burned up with literal fire, then how can a spiritual wing LITERALLY, and P-H-Y-S-I-C-A-L-L-Y PUNCH someone in their PHYSICAL HEAD?

And how does a physical punch in the head literally make you not conceited. 

Ray said:

Quote
A splinter seems rather mild compared to the miseries that define buffet. That’s because Paul is not speaking of intensity when he speaks of a "splinter," but rather the incessantness of a splinter. The pain and aggravation is constant.

Neither is Paul speaking of something physical.  Not that he didn't experience physical hardships.

I'm sure that the pain of the reminder of those embarrassing memories of his days in the flesh/carnally minded, must have felt like blows to him mentally and emotionally.  I mean, when you think about some of the stupid stuff we've done... It's like, Oh Lord -- do I really have to go there?  Do I.  It's so embarrassing to think about.  But the memories pop up out of nowhere and without warning....   
 

Ray said:
Quote
Another telling word is found in Paul’s entreaty: "For this I entreat the Lord thrice, that it should withdraw from me.

The Greek word translated "withdraw" is aphistemi = FROM-STAND. Only a creature of intelligence and mobility can possibly "withdraw" from someone.

Withdrawal is used fifteen times in the Greek Scriptures, and always refers to people or creatures of mobility.  "Withdrawal" is never used in connection with inanimate objects.  Objects are normally "removed" or "taken away." They do not "withdraw." When Paul asked God to have "it" withdraw from him, the "it" was not an "object or thing,", but  "a creature."

Messengers of Satan are "creatures."  Creatures are not shipwrecks and vigils and cold and imprisonments -- those are all "things."

I imagine he had to learn through all of that he was "buffeted" with to believe that he was forgiven and that Jesus Christ really and truly loved him and had mercy on him and belonged to Christ.

We walk by faith, not sight.   

Everything Paul experienced would have made most of us fold because we walk by sight.  We would have caved in and said, there's no way God loves me because look at how much I'm suffering physically.  It must be because of all the things I did in my past.  But not Paul.  He said:  I am convinced (have no doubt) that neither life, nor thing impending, nor ......   can separate you from Christ's love.
 
The constant reminders of those days in his flesh must have been a real pain and aggravation and I believe that those reminders came to him by way of the "splinter."

The splinter was not in his literal flesh, but reminding him of his former conceit.  That's how he got to be such "good" pharisee in the first place.  You don't drive out conceit by literal cold weather.

Besides, Paul laid out all of the things he suffered physically and tangibly during his ministry, so wouldn't a splinter in his literal flesh be redundant?

weariness
jails
blows
deaths
thirty-nine lashes
flogged with rods
stoned
shipwrecked
day & night in swamp
journeys
dangers of rivers
dangers of robbers
dangers of my race
dangers of the nations
dangers in the city
dangers in wilderness
dangers in the sea
dangers/false brethren
toil and labor
vigils
famine and thirst
fasts
cold and nakedness


7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited ....

So why would this messenger have to harass and aggravate him physically some more?  It just seems so redundant. 

He had to learn total dependence on God now in every way, shape and form:   mentally, physically, emotionally.   That's what he was always saying.  So he had to learn it himself and keep practicing at it.  He couldn't depend on himself or his former or current "status" any longer, the way some of us rest on our laurels. 

He couldn't say, Look, guys, the reason I was given this revelation is because of something great that I have done to deserve this. That's a blow to the ego as a former pharisee.  There goes your conceit - right out the window...............

Shipwrecks and imprisonments obviously couldn't get rid of the conceit that was ready and waiting to well up inside of him. 

Only a "messenger of Satan," some creature to constantly nag and aggravate the living daylights out of him about something he had previously done in his carnal minded, fleshly days as a former pharisee could do that.  How did the messenger actually go about doing that?  That's the question.


Sorry this was so long!  And if you got this far and don't want to clobber me...  thanks. :)  I pray to God that I didn't confuse anyone.

As Indianabob says... kindly offered....


Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: santgem on June 09, 2015, 06:16:07 AM
Was it better for Judas had he not been born?


Why did Judas betray Jesus?  For the silver, for the money?  Jesus tells why Judas betrayed Him yet many think it was because Judas was such an incredible sinner--one of the worst humans ever born?  Is that true? Here is why Judas betrayed Jesus: 

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). 

Yes, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.  Judas had to do what he did because the Scripture had to be fulfilled.  Did Judas desire in his heart to betray Jesus?  Did he personally look forward to this deed and the money he would get?  I don't think so!   Isaiah 53:10 tells us that "It pleased God to bruise Him [His Son]."  So in this verse God takes responsibility for the "bruising" [crucifixion] of His Son. So how could Judas be held eternally guilty for this crime?

Let me assure you, that Judas all on his own, even with his carnal mind, did not possess the required evil necessary to betray His LORD with a kiss.  How so?

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).

This is the only time in the history of the world that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being.  How pray tell without the power of God is it possible to resist the power of Satan? If Judas could have pulled this whole thing off by his own power and devices, it would not have been necessary for Satan to possess his mind.  When Satan left Judas, Judas REPENTED. Why did he repent?  Do we have any clues?

This is not a mystery, his conscious was killing him!  He recognized his horrible sin, and confessed it:  "I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood."  He confessed that Jesus was innocent and he was guilty, and he tried to make partial amends by returning the thirty pieces of silver.  And lastly, but most importantly, he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for the Friend that he betrayed.  Jesus was Judas' Friend.  Judas didn't repent just because he was a sinning man. He repented because he shed the blood of his innocent Master.  Judas was very specific in his repentance.  Judas laid down his life for his friend Jesus in the only way he knew how under the distressing, mind--boggling circumstances in which he saw himself--HE HANGED HIMSELF!

How many of us have the guts to hang ourselves for the sins that we have committed?

If Judas did not have feelings of love toward Jesus Whom he publically acknowledged was an innocent Man, he would not have felt guilty, he would not have returned the silver, and he would not have killed himself.  He would have gone out and spent the money.  Now then, who are we to question or doubt the sincerity of his heart-felt repentance?

Does your conscience slay you for the wrongs you have committed?  Have you confessed these sins before God and man?  Have you acknowledged the shedding of Christ's innocent blood for your sins?  Have you done all in your power to make amends for all the wrongs and sins that you have committed?

Have you laid down your life as a living sacrifice to God?    Well if you have done all these, then you may have at least attained to the same level of spirituality as Judas. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (Jas. 4:7).  Since Judas did not submit to God, Satan the Devil took him.  When Satan departed, Judas inspired to do the right thing. Who is to say that Judas didn't do the right thing under such a bizarre drama as this?





"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).


"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).


This is the only time in the history of the world [/u] that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being[/b].
Title: Re: Did some demons escape the pit ?
Post by: Gina on June 09, 2015, 12:21:30 PM
Was it better for Judas had he not been born?


Why did Judas betray Jesus?  For the silver, for the money?  Jesus tells why Judas betrayed Him yet many think it was because Judas was such an incredible sinner--one of the worst humans ever born?  Is that true? Here is why Judas betrayed Jesus: 

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). 

Yes, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.  Judas had to do what he did because the Scripture had to be fulfilled.  Did Judas desire in his heart to betray Jesus?  Did he personally look forward to this deed and the money he would get?  I don't think so!   Isaiah 53:10 tells us that "It pleased God to bruise Him [His Son]."  So in this verse God takes responsibility for the "bruising" [crucifixion] of His Son. So how could Judas be held eternally guilty for this crime?

Let me assure you, that Judas all on his own, even with his carnal mind, did not possess the required evil necessary to betray His LORD with a kiss.  How so?

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).

This is the only time in the history of the world that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being.  How pray tell without the power of God is it possible to resist the power of Satan? If Judas could have pulled this whole thing off by his own power and devices, it would not have been necessary for Satan to possess his mind.  When Satan left Judas, Judas REPENTED. Why did he repent?  Do we have any clues?

This is not a mystery, his conscious was killing him!  He recognized his horrible sin, and confessed it:  "I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood."  He confessed that Jesus was innocent and he was guilty, and he tried to make partial amends by returning the thirty pieces of silver.  And lastly, but most importantly, he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for the Friend that he betrayed.  Jesus was Judas' Friend.  Judas didn't repent just because he was a sinning man. He repented because he shed the blood of his innocent Master.  Judas was very specific in his repentance.  Judas laid down his life for his friend Jesus in the only way he knew how under the distressing, mind--boggling circumstances in which he saw himself--HE HANGED HIMSELF!

How many of us have the guts to hang ourselves for the sins that we have committed
?

If Judas did not have feelings of love toward Jesus Whom he publically acknowledged was an innocent Man, he would not have felt guilty, he would not have returned the silver, and he would not have killed himself.  He would have gone out and spent the money.  Now then, who are we to question or doubt the sincerity of his heart-felt repentance?

Does your conscience slay you for the wrongs you have committed?  Have you confessed these sins before God and man?  Have you acknowledged the shedding of Christ's innocent blood for your sins?  Have you done all in your power to make amends for all the wrongs and sins that you have committed?

Have you laid down your life as a living sacrifice to God?    Well if you have done all these, then you may have at least attained to the same level of spirituality as Judas. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (Jas. 4:7).  Since Judas did not submit to God, Satan the Devil took him.  When Satan departed, Judas inspired to do the right thing. Who is to say that Judas didn't do the right thing under such a bizarre drama as this?





"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).


"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).


This is the only time in the history of the world [/u] that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being[/b].


SOURCE:  http://bible-truths.com/JudasNotBorn.htm




Dear Santgem,

Ray made some very valid points and gave us lots to meditate on here.  I just wanted to offer a friendly reminder:

69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.


How many of us have betrayed an innocent friend to condemnation and beatings so that they become totally unrecognizable?  I haven't done that but I am aware that others have. 

And do we have to literally hang ourselves?  Is that the gospel of the Lord?  Is that a requirement? 

Because Paul said that Jesus came to save sinners of whom he was chief to forgive sins and to undo the works of the devil.  Hanging yourself over past sins is itself a work of the devil.   

It's one of the most cowardly, selfish acts and the other apostles said in acts he got just what he had coming to him. 

The apostles certainly didn't believe that he had "laid down his life" for a friend. 

He was too much of a spiritual coward being so carnally minded at that point to be able to suffer in his flesh ("he who has suffered in his flesh is done with sin"), and to believe that Christ could ever forgive him, so he killed himself to make himself feel better and THAT was the reason he did it.  He couldn't live with himself for the thing he did.     Which was probably one of those evils that had to be because he was obviously still a devil.  Too carnal, too blind to recognize that Satan had possessed him to do it.

And so he, just like those demon possessed pigs, ran himself headlong over a cliff. 

If that is not the case, then why, if he was so repentant and spiritually "mature," don't we hear accounts of him begging the chief priests to not hang Jesus?  Because -- Judas was a coward and he had to kill himself so that this scripture could be fulfilled:

18  Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his sin (he didn't buy it himself, he "acquired it" after the priests and Pharisees bought it.  It was the "blood money" Judas was rewarded.  Judas threw the silver coins down in the temple to return them to the priests and Pharisees; but they wouldn't keep any of it for themselves.  They took it and bought the Field of Blood with Judas' "reward" money and gave the field to him, and that's how Judas acquired that field), and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

19 And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.

20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE [ deserted of people and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness  ], AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT'; and, 'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.'


I think he did look forward to the money he was going to get, but I don't think he ever really thought about what Jesus would go through, and I do believe he felt very sorry, but not sorry enough to do the RIGHT THING (believe Jesus loved him and not betray Jesus), for which Judas would need the power of God to do.  Just because he didn't have the power to do the right thing even when he killed himself, doesn't mean that Judas did the RIGHT or a GOOD thing.  These things he did to Jesus and himself were wrong and sinful and wicked.   It was as wrong of him to kill himself, as it was of him to betray his innocent friend.  But it was prophesied he would, and that's the way it had to go.  Boy, won't he be glad when he realizes how much God truly forgave him. 

Or maybe I should say, won't he love much when he realizes how much he is forgiven?   

Jesus said:  "... whoever has been forgiven little loves little."  Well, Judas has been forgiven A LOT!

Thank you for your sobering post, Santgem.