Did some demons escape the pit ?

[rick]

2Pe 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.


What I'm trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?

If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?

Luk 8:27  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent

Mar 5:12  So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."

Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?


Job 1:7  The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."

1Pe 5:8  Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ? 

[Gina]

2Pe 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.


What I'm trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?

If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?

Luk 8:27  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent

Mar 5:12  So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."

Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?


Job 1:7  The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."

1Pe 5:8  Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ? 

Hi, Rick

Demons are false doctrines. 

2 Peter 2

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked

8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.  Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,

11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.

12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,f while they feast with you.

14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!

15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,

16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.

19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever (not "whoever") overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.   (OVERTAKEN BY, POSSESSED, HELD CAPTIVE?)




God's word says they are chained, doesn't it?  So, no, they have not escaped their chains of darkness.

2 Pet 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment. 

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned. 




But the gist of what Peter is saying to the believers is this:


2 Pet. 1

5 ....  make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,

7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you PRACTICE (just practice) these qualities (instead of practicing evil) you will never fall.


2 Pet ch. 3

17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

The Lake of Fire - Part IX

THE LIFE AND MISSION OF SATAN THE SERPENT DEVIL

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:.

Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html




Satan can try and tempt us to give in to our flesh.    But when we are so grounded and have no desires for the things of the world (POWER, DECEITFUL RICHES (it's not a sin to have money), FAME, RECOGNITION to build up a fragile ego, LOOSE WOMEN because you are insecure, DRUGS, LOTS OF ALCOHOL FOR PURPOSES OF GETTING TOTALLY SMASHED AND TO FEEL UPLIFTED, etc., etc., personally I don't think it's a sin to have a little wine or a beer or whatever to calm down after a hard day at work or whatever, but I won't use it as a crutch and thereby become dependent and it overtakes me, no, uh-uh), this means that we can plainly see the deception in those things and we are DONE with them.  And that's when he (or rather "the worldly" thing that we may be tempted by) loses all power to make us fall (or possess our minds), and so he "flees" from us.  For the time being...

The Lake of Fire - Part IX

THE LIFE AND MISSION OF SATAN THE SERPENT DEVIL

Thank God that Jesus was not intimidated in the slightest by Satan:

"Then says Jesus unto him, Get thee hence SATAN... Then the DEVIL leaves Him..." (Matt. 4:10-11).

Does Satan obey Christ by leaving and never to return? Is this the end of Satan? No. Let's see what else Luke's account adds to this drama,

"and when the devil had ended all the temptation [Gk: testing], he departed from Him for a season [Gk: until an opportune time]" (Luke 4:13).

So Satan left our Lord only for the moment. However, Satan would be at the heels of Jesus wherever He went. After attacking Jesus, Satan attacked His head Apostle, but only Jesus recognized whom it really was talking through His apostle:

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html



So just work on losing all interest in the world, and not needing those things of the world to reinforce your fragile ego, and guess what?  You'll be totally blessed.

Remember, practice makes perfect.

Practice:

perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to i-m-p-r-o-v-e or maintain one's proficiency.

[Kat]

Hi Rick,

This is from '23 minutes in Hell,' I think it might be helpful with your questions.

http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html --------------------

No, demons are not angels, and angels are not demons, and there is not one Scripture to support such a theory.

The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon."

Although the King James does not use the word "demon(s)," At numerous places in Scripture the word "daimon"--meaning 'demon' is found. Example, the word "devils" found in Matt. 8:31 is 'daimon' in the Greek manuscripts. Various English Versions translate 'daimon' into "demons" rather than "devils." But "demons/daimons" are never, ever translated "angels." Whoever or whatever the angels of the Devil are, they assuredly are not invisible or visible huge, ugly, deformed, alien monsters, which Bill calls "demons," "chained angels," and "angels of the Devil."

Please notice once more the definition of "angelos"--"an angel, messenger, or PASTOR" (Dr. Strong's Greek Dictionary #32, 'angelos'). How in the world could anyone confuse the hideous-looking zero IQ monsters in Bill's book, with angels, messengers, or pastors. One could possibly get a few back-woods uneducated aboriginals to worship such creatures, but certainly not hundreds and hundreds of millions of educated Christians. If Rev. 12:9 is a true statement from God, then how is it that the two billion Christians in the world are excluded from "...the whole world" which are deceived by the Devil and his angels?
v

Satan deceives the world (except for the "few chosen ELECT" of God) through his own ministers. The Devil's angels are the Devil's ministers, and they are mortal men, not hideous, animalistic, monsters called demons. The "children of the lady" are the "very elect, few," and Satan the Devil has his "children" as well: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8:44).

Now go back to verse 13 and notice who it was that followed Jesus and to whom it was that Jesus addressed: "The Pharisees therefore said unto him, You bear record of yourself; your record is not true."

And remember that the Pharisees were the religious leaders of God's church in Judea. But they were not godly men or godly ministers of Jesus, but rather they were the children of their father the Devil. These religious leaders were and still are, "the angels of the Devil"--the "ministers of Satan" (Matt. 25:41 & II Cor. 11:14-15).

Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Kat]

I thought I would add this about demons.

http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#wrestle ----------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Jim:

Well, just like almost everything else Christians adopt as truth, their knowledge of demons and spirits is equally eschew.  First, Jim, always remember the basics:

"...for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" (Eph. 6:12).

So it is NOT the physical that is our biggest problem (flesh and blood), being overweight, etc.

Next we must understand that demons are FALSE DOCTRINES -- "doctrines of demons" Paul calls them. So anything that would influence us to believe in, follow, or be persuaded by any such things are demons influences.

So when we speak of "anger" we are in the realm of the spirit. James says, "Whosoever is ANGRY with his brother is a MURDERER"! WOW! "Be angry and SIN NOT -- do not let the sun go down upon your ANGER" is another. 

So being overweight and having uncontrolled anger are two totally different things.  Being overweight is no more a sin than having flat feet. There are thousands of things in the biological makeup of our bodies over which we have and nor can we have control. If one is a total glutton, that is a lust of the flesh, but MANY overweight people eat very little for their size. But anger, that's different. Anger comes from within the man and it can cause one to SIN.

Now then, what do we do with the demons of anger, lust, and other aberrant behavior, cast them out?  Well, if all we had to do was "cast them out," we wouldn't have to "wrestle" with them, would we?

Satan and his demons have their role in God's creation. God Himself has even commissioned LYING spirits to go out and do their dirty work (I Kings 22:22). So demons are real, they are here, and they will be around for a long time.

How should we handle them -- ask the preacher to cast them all out so that we are clean and will never be bothered in any spiritual way again, not to mention having a perfect size body? No, here's what God tells us we should do after telling us that we DO WRESTLE against these forces:

"Therefore take up the panoply [armor] of God that you may be enabled to WITHSTAND in the wicked day, and having effected all, to STAND.  STAND, then, girded about your loins with TRUTH [remember I said demons are FALSE doctrines], with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel [gospel] of peace; with all taking up the large shield of FAITH, by which you WILL BE ABLE TO EXTINGUISH ALL THE FIERY ARROWS OF THE WICKED ONE."

So the truth is that we continue to wrestle and do battle with them -- it is good for us to do so, it MAKES US STRONG in the TRUTH and in our reliance of God's spiritual armor to protect us.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.

Sincerely,

Ray

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Rick,

I think there is a lot in the answers provided here. I will only add that I believe the messengers that Peter and Jude refer to are not the same as the ministers of satan now who are transformed into ministers of righteousness. I think the ones peter is referencing are of a certain different kind, being spiritual in nature, even similar to the evil spirits God sent out in the old testament or worse. Either way, they are chained up, and I believe that includes to this day.

Wherever Peter and Jude got their inspiration from to say those things, besides being from God, we cannot know now. If there was a book inspired of God before which was written, even the book where the arch angel Micheal rebuked satan over the disputation of moses body, these are now lost. All as God planned though.

God bless,
Alex

[Gina]

Hi Rick,

I think there is a lot in the answers provided here. I will only add that I believe the messengers that Peter and Jude refer to are not the same as the ministers of satan now who are transformed into ministers of righteousness. I think the ones peter is referencing are of a certain different kind, being spiritual in nature, even similar to the evil spirits God sent out in the old testament or worse. Either way, they are chained up, and I believe that includes to this day.

Wherever Peter and Jude got their inspiration from to say those things, besides being from God, we cannot know now. If there was a book inspired of God before which was written, even the book where the arch angel Micheal rebuked satan over the disputation of moses body, these are now lost. All as God planned though.

God bless,
Alex

I respectfully disagree with you, Alex.

It was the shepherds of Israel spoken of through the OT and who Jesus berated who didn't care about the sheep.  They just used them and took advantage of them and led them astray.  They left their FIRST (most important) estate and did as they pleased.



Ezek. 34

2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?

3 "You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock.

4 "Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them....
...

Matt 24

45 "A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them.

46 If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.

47 I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns.

48 But what if the servant is evil and thinks, 'My master won't be back for a while,'

49 and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk?

50  The master will return unannounced and unexpected,

51 and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matt. 23

14"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation

Matt. 25

14 "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants (ministers) and entrusted to them his property (His Word?).

15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.

...

24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,

25  so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.'

26 But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?

27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.

28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.  (Jeremiah 23)

29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'



Matthew 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?



The Final Judgment

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 

44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'

45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'

46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Matt 21

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

[Ian 155]

2Pe 2:4  God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

Jud 1:6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.


What I'm trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?

If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?

Luk 8:27  As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent

Mar 5:12  So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."

Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?


Job 1:7  The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."

1Pe 5:8  Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.

So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ? 

the only angles are 30* ,45* 60* and of course.... obtuse angles

just kidding

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex

[Kat]

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.

2Peter 2:1  But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

I think it is the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off (at least it has me), but Strong's does say that the word also refers to messengers and PASTORS.

If you think about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, which means hades or the grave. Here's a expert from Ray's LOF 16. D5.

The Greek word "hades," means "imperceptible or unseen," however, to the Greeks this word also represented both the god Hades and the domain of Hades, which was the state of the dead, and underworld. Originally this word did not mean a place of pain and torture. That bit of paganism was borrowed from the Egyptian underworld of Amenti with its lowest realm being Tartaroo where it was taught that there was pain and suffering. http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

And Peter goes on to explain that these Pastors back in the time of Noah certainly died and went to the grave, as only Noah and his family (8 people) were saved from the flood.

2Peter 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

So the grave does reserve/hold a person, you could say in "chains of darkness," the grave certainly is dark, until resurrection and judgment day at Christ's return.

And I think this is much the same that is spoken about in Jude 1. I am thinking Gina is right about about these pastors left their "first" or most important responsibility of serving/shepherding the people or else there would have been more on the ark than just Noah's family, but that was not meant to be. Looking further down in the chapter where Peter mention "angels" again, consider what he is saying there (I'm putting my opinion in parentheses there).

2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
v. 10  and especially those (unjust) who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They (unjust) are presumptuous, self-willed. They (unjust) are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
v. 11  whereas angels (pastors), who are greater in power and might (having positions of authority), do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

I guess this is saying those pastors did nothing in the face of all the wickedness around them, or even took part in it, because they were among those washed away in the flood too. And Peter continues on and on about what he started out speaking on "false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you," I think he made his point very clear, there have always been false teachers/pastors/shepherds. He speaks of back in Noah's day, so from the beginning of recorded Scripture, this age is filled up with darkness.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Anyway just gave my opinions on this for consideration.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

2Peter 2:4  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.

2Peter 2:1  But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

I think it is the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off (at least it has me), but Strong's does say that the word also refers to messengers and PASTORS.

If you think about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, which means hades or the grave. Here's a expert from Ray's LOF 16. D5.

The Greek word "hades," means "imperceptible or unseen," however, to the Greeks this word also represented both the god Hades and the domain of Hades, which was the state of the dead, and underworld. Originally this word did not mean a place of pain and torture. That bit of paganism was borrowed from the Egyptian underworld of Amenti with its lowest realm being Tartaroo where it was taught that there was pain and suffering. http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

And Peter goes on to explain that these Pastors back in the time of Noah certainly died and went to the grave, as only Noah and his family (8 people) were saved from the flood.

2Peter 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

So the grave does reserve/hold a person, you could say in "chains of darkness," the grave certainly is dark, until resurrection and judgment day at Christ's return.

And I think this is much the same that is spoken about in Jude 1. I am thinking Gina is right about about these pastors left their "first" or most important responsibility of serving/shepherding the people or else there would have been more on the ark than just Noah's family, but that was not meant to be. Looking further down in the chapter where Peter mention "angels" again, consider what he is saying there (I'm putting my opinion in parentheses there).

2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
v. 10  and especially those (unjust) who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They (unjust) are presumptuous, self-willed. They (unjust) are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
v. 11  whereas angels (pastors), who are greater in power and might (having positions of authority), do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

I guess this is saying those pastors did nothing in the face of all the wickedness around them, or even took part in it, because they were among those washed away in the flood too. And Peter continues on and on about what he started out speaking on "false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you," I think he made his point very clear, there have always been false teachers/pastors/shepherds. He speaks of back in Noah's day, so from the beginning of recorded Scripture, this age is filled up with darkness.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Anyway just gave my opinions on this for consideration.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

Thanks for your comment. I will add some more food for thought to this discussion. The first I mentioned above. These angels are not in the same place that human's who perish go. They are chained in darkness. They don't sleep in darkness. They are not dead. They are chained in darkness. Peter's words were inspired to not use the grave or sleep/dead for a reason.

You are right to bring up the first verse which helps establish some context but I think we should also pay attention to how peter starts that fourth verse.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4  For [BECAUSE] if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Peter is giving us an example. He is comparing the false prophets of verse 1 to the angels who did not keep their estate of verse 4 but he is not saying those angels are the false prophets. They are similar in that both are in darkness and both have an impending judgement that looms heavy over them.

Here is the word angels again in this context:

2Pe 2:11  Whereas angels, which are greater [than carnal men v10] in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Compare that with:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Is Michael the Archangel a human messanger....? Seems Peter 2:11 and Jude 1:9 are speaking along similar lines but definitely not about human messangers here.

Certainly my own opinions as well

God bless,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."

2Pe 2:1  But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3  And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5  if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6  if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7  and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8  (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10  and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11  whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14  They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15  Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17  These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18  For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19  They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21  For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22  What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.

I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them   [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]

Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.

Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.

God bless,
Alex

[Gina]

Exactly Kat -- that previous verse about false prophets is what I was trying to bring out and then the verses about the people afterwards. 


All the verses were talking about people, and then what?  Peter's going to totally throw in something about "invisible evil spirits"?  Does not make any sense to me to do that.


Who said:  "Who told you to flee (escape) the coming destruction?"

And besides it was prophesied back in Ezekiel what would happen to the evil shepherds, and that's exactly what happened and continues to happen to this day. 

There are people (and false prophets) walking in outer (spiritual) darkness now, aren't they?  They don't think they're in outer darkness, anymore than did the pharisees and chief priests who killed Jesus.

But so what if they don't perceive their own lot?

But that's not even what Peter was getting at.  After Peter gave them a run down of what to do in Chapter 1 to not fall, he then told them what NOT to do in chapter 2 and what would happen to them if they did.

That's all it was about. 

Now go and do it.  You think you can do it?   ha ha  I can hear Ray saying that...  You think you can do it now? 

[Gina]

Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you.  You  have no idea what you're talking about.  Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.

Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned.  Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you.  You  have no idea what you're talking about.  Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.

Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned.  Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.

Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.

Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------

"On the day you were created, I placed you beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)

"In the day of your creation they established the anointed cherub's booth. And I bestow you in the holy mountain of Alueim [God]" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)

"With an anointed cherub as guardian I place you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire" (The New Revised Standard Version)

"With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones" (The New American Bible)

Two things should be abundantly clear from these translations: (1) These verses are certainly a challenge to translate, and (2) The prince of Tyrus was NOT the cherub, himself, but rather the cherub was placed as a guardian BESIDE OR WITH the prince of Tyrus. A further proof that the prince of Tyrus cannot be, himself this cherub, is found in the grammar. Where KJV translates, "Thou art the anointed cherub..." the word translated "Thou" is the Hebrew word "ath" which can be either a pronoun or the object of a verb. But in Ezek. 28:14, it can't be a pronoun because it is not the same gender as "cherub." The Hebrew word ath is feminine while the Hebrew word kruwg translated cherub, is masculine.

WHAT ARE CHERUBS?

Aren't cherubs those cut little cubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.

Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; 'cherubim' in Hebrew means, 'AS-MANY') of heaven is divided on God's right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).

Cherubim are associated with the mercy seat, the decorations of the tabernacle and later the temple, and are associated with the Throne of God in Ezekiel. The possibility that there is cherubim associated with the throne of world leaders also seem plausible. Whatever their earthly function, there was a cherub associated with the king of Tyrus. He was with or beside the king, but he was not the king, himself, neither was he Satan.[/u]

Next we read a remarkable thing in the KJV in the last part of verse 16 of Ezek. 28:

"By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."

Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can't be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?

The king wasn't the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don't trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn't know the cherub.

etc..... See the article for more details.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Gina, I would really appreciate it if you don't throw such wild accusations as "you have no idea what you're talking about." You address a brother like that?

God be with you,
Alex

[Kat]

Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."

2Pe 2:1  But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3  And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5  if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6  if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7  and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8  (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10  and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11  whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14  They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15  Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17  These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18  For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19  They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21  For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22  What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.

I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them   [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]

Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.

Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.

The only place that tartaroo is mention in Scripture is there in 2 Peter 2:4, and Strong's has it G5020 Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades)... hades is the 'state' of being dead or having no perception or consciousnesses, I do not see that as being like a prison for angels.

There is a place that Scripture speaks of a prison or holding place for Satan and you know of it, the "bottomless pit" and that only occurs at the very end of this age.

Rev 20:3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit(G12), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Strong
G12 abussos - depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.

Maybe Peter used that word "tartaroo" to show how utterly deplorable it is for pastors to abuse their position. But here is an email that speaks about what hades is, so therefore it should apply to tartartoo.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2899.0.html -----

Ray, I appreciate your time in covering these subjects.....My questions may center around terminology .  With the spirit of the dead Jesus being with God and and with the body bring in hades (grave)

    COMMENT:  But hades is NOT the grave. Hades is the same as sheol in the Hebrew. It is the "state" of the dead, not the grave, or the location of the dead.

     for the 3-3+days prior to resurrection, does the word soul have a meaning (during this period)?

    COMMENT:  Yes, of course, the word soul always has meaning. Does it have an "existence," however? No, that is why it is said to be in "hades" which means "imperceptible." There souls which IS PERCEPTION goes to IMPERCEPTION. Hence, it has no consciousness whatsoever.

     Was the Spirit of Jesus a separate "consciousness" during this period?

    COMMENT:  The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.

    God be with you,

    Ray

[lilitalienboi16]

Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."

2Pe 2:1  But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3  And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5  if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6  if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7  and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8  (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10  and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11  whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13  suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14  They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15  Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17  These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18  For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19  They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21  For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22  What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.

I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them   [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]

Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.

Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.

The only place that tartaroo is mention in Scripture is there in 2 Peter 2:4, and Strong's has it G5020 Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades)... hades is the 'state' of being dead or having no perception or consciousnesses, I do not see that as being like a prison for angels.

There is a place that Scripture speaks of a prison or holding place for Satan and you know of it, the "bottomless pit" and that only occurs at the very end of this age.

Rev 20:3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit(G12), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Strong
G12 abussos - depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) "abyss": - deep, (bottomless) pit.

Maybe Peter used that word "tartaroo" to show how utterly deplorable it is for pastors to abuse their position. But here is an email that speaks about what hades is, so therefore it should apply to tartartoo.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2899.0.html -----

Ray, I appreciate your time in covering these subjects.....My questions may center around terminology .  With the spirit of the dead Jesus being with God and and with the body bring in hades (grave)

    COMMENT:  But hades is NOT the grave. Hades is the same as sheol in the Hebrew. It is the "state" of the dead, not the grave, or the location of the dead.

     for the 3-3+days prior to resurrection, does the word soul have a meaning (during this period)?

    COMMENT:  Yes, of course, the word soul always has meaning. Does it have an "existence," however? No, that is why it is said to be in "hades" which means "imperceptible." There souls which IS PERCEPTION goes to IMPERCEPTION. Hence, it has no consciousness whatsoever.

     Was the Spirit of Jesus a separate "consciousness" during this period?

    COMMENT:  The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.

    God be with you,

    Ray

Hi Kat,

Why do you assume hades should apply to Tartarus and not the bottomless pit? The bottomless pit is where satan is CHAINED so why not those angels that did not obey as well such as the cherubim who his cast out of the mountain of God? Peter says that those in tartarus are CHAINED similarly.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Now look at peter's statement:
2Pe 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

So because strong assumes that everything in scripture is hell and heaven and relates Tartarus to hades in his definition based on ONE usage we should assume too that Tartarus is related to hades? I don't understand that and perhaps you can clarify for me. Then again maybe it is related to hades but my issue isn't so much with that as it is with Peter and Jude not necesssarily refering to physical human messengers as much as spiritual messengers who were not obedient. I don't want to necessarily argue about the nitty gritty of what exactly is Tartarus as it appears to be open to interpretation. My original point was more with the nature of those messengers.

God bless,
Alex

[Gina]

Hi Gina,

You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Where is it that all men end up?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.

Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)

Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you.  You  have no idea what you're talking about.  Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.

Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned.  Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.

Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.

Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------

"On the day you were created, I placed you beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)

"In the day of your creation they established the anointed cherub's booth. And I bestow you in the holy mountain of Alueim [God]" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)

"With an anointed cherub as guardian I place you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire" (The New Revised Standard Version)

"With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones" (The New American Bible)

Two things should be abundantly clear from these translations: (1) These verses are certainly a challenge to translate, and (2) The prince of Tyrus was NOT the cherub, himself, but rather the cherub was placed as a guardian BESIDE OR WITH the prince of Tyrus. A further proof that the prince of Tyrus cannot be, himself this cherub, is found in the grammar. Where KJV translates, "Thou art the anointed cherub..." the word translated "Thou" is the Hebrew word "ath" which can be either a pronoun or the object of a verb. But in Ezek. 28:14, it can't be a pronoun because it is not the same gender as "cherub." The Hebrew word ath is feminine while the Hebrew word kruwg translated cherub, is masculine.

WHAT ARE CHERUBS?

Aren't cherubs those cut little cubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.

Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; 'cherubim' in Hebrew means, 'AS-MANY') of heaven is divided on God's right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).

Cherubim are associated with the mercy seat, the decorations of the tabernacle and later the temple, and are associated with the Throne of God in Ezekiel. The possibility that there is cherubim associated with the throne of world leaders also seem plausible. Whatever their earthly function, there was a cherub associated with the king of Tyrus. He was with or beside the king, but he was not the king, himself, neither was he Satan.[/u]

Next we read a remarkable thing in the KJV in the last part of verse 16 of Ezek. 28:

"By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."

Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can't be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?

The king wasn't the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don't trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn't know the cherub.

etc..... See the article for more details.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Gina, I would really appreciate it if you don't throw such wild accusations as "you have no idea what you're talking about." You address a brother like that?

God be with you,
Alex

Alex, you're trying to pull a fast one, you are?  This is what you said:

Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.

Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)

Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)

Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)

So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.

You made it clear that you thought the "cherubs" were "evil spirits" and angels were "evil spirits" and the "CHERUB" was cast out.   


Ray said:   

The king wasn't the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don't trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn't know the cherub.

However, earlier you said:

Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.  Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.

The King was cast out, NOT the cherub.  The King was on the high mountain of God, therefore the King was a minister (angel) of God.  And a FALSE one at that.

You're a sneaky one.  I don't like your tactics at all.  Well, it's like Ray said:  YOU CAN'T CORNER A SNAKE IN A BRIAR PATCH! 
Now, go do what you ALWAYS DO when you've completely screwed up:  Go put a song up in the Light-hearted banter section or start another thread to bury the truth, as if you could.  ha-ha!

This is my last reply to you, Alex.

[Kat]

Well Alex, I began thinking tartaroo might also be the state of being dead, because it is defined as a part of hades, and since the word used as "angels" can be speaking of men or pastors, that fits into the whole passage of what Peter is speaking about. I have struggled looking at the passage for a long time, and that is the only way it really seems to make sense for me.

Besides 2 Peter and 1 Jude (that I believe is speaking of the same thing) there is no other mention of angels/spirits being held in prison in this age and there is no explanation anywhere in Scripture as to why this would be done. No, there's just Christ casting the devil (and his angels?) into the bottomless pit when He returns, nothing else about it being before that.

Anyway I do not hold this as a n absolute truth, no it's just my take on this at this time and have no desire to stir up contention because of it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

The King was cast out, NOT the cherub.  The King was on the high mountain of God, therefore the King was a minister (angel) of God.  And a FALSE one at that.

You're a sneaky one.  I don't like your tactics at all.  Well, it's like Ray said:  YOU CAN'T CORNER A SNAKE IN A BRIAR PATCH! 
Now, go do what you ALWAYS DO when you've completely screwed up:  Go put a song up in the Light-hearted banter section or start another thread to bury the truth, as if you could.  ha-ha!

This is my last reply to you, Alex.

Gina,

First off, I quoted ray because you stated that ray taught Ezekiel 28:16 to be about men who sinned. I hope this is plainly evident now not to be the case.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee [King of Tyre] as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

No one is denying the King was cast off from the mountain of God. I'm talking about the Cherub who was placed beside the King of Tyre who was ALSO removed/destroyed FROM the mist of the stones of fire. Ray points out the same thing but his focus is the first part of the statement to prove that the King of Tyre and Cherub are two different beings. Both are being judged here though.

The rest of your accusations are as widly absurd and false as what I just exposed as innacurate.

Cherubim are similar in certain ways to spirits (As they are spirit beings), be they evil or good, and different in other's which I stated in my first address to Rick.

Ray identifies cherubim as messengers as well as spirit creatures and facing towards the mercy seat desiring to look into things. You can find that in the quote I gave you. An angel is nothing more than a messenger. Ray also said that these same messengers (cherubim) are divded, good on one side and, "wicked" is the term he uses, on the other. He surmises this from I Kings 22:19.

Just so you know, Peter himself calls the cherubim angels too.

------------------------------------------

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

it is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; 'cherubim' in Hebrew means, 'AS-MANY') of heaven is divided on God's right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE

---------------------------------------

You are tottaly and completely out of line Gina.

In Christ,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

Well Alex, I began thinking tartaroo might also be the state of being dead, because it is defined as a part of hades, and since the word used as "angels" can be speaking of men or pastors, that fits into the whole passage of what Peter is speaking about. I have struggled looking at the passage for a long time, and that is the only way it really seems to make sense for me.

Besides 2 Peter and 1 Jude (that I believe is speaking of the same thing) there is no other mention of angels/spirits being held in prison in this age and there is no explanation anywhere in Scripture as to why this would be done. No, there's just Christ casting the devil (and his angels?) into the bottomless pit when He returns, nothing else about it being before that.

Anyway I do not hold this as a n absolute truth, no it's just my take on this at this time and have no desire to stir up contention because of it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I'm completely fine with leaving it open to interpretation. I do believe it to be a thing of very minor consequence and not worth contention. I was merely offering my perspective to rick on top of the other additions that were provided in my original address.

God bless,
Alex