does anyone help me understand Romans - 9:31

[soberxp]

kjv:But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
niv:but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.

I didn't get it,because Romans - 9:31 said they followed after the law of righteousness
(it must be include：
1.perform the law of righteousness,
2.and such as in Romans  2:13 - .......it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. )


Romans - 罗马书 2:13
kjv:(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
niv:For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

[longhorn]

The little picture of Pinocchio's girlfriend threw me off for a second.

Longhorn

[Dave in Tenn]

These are very profound verses.  I'm going to add some 'parenthetical' comments to help with the English.  Somebody else is going to have to help with the Spiritual understanding and application.

Rom 9:30-33  What shall we say then?  (understanding what was just said in the previous verses, we reach the conclusion) That the Gentiles, which did not follow after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore? (why not?) Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The Old Covenant under the Law stressed Israel's obedience to all the Law.  They TRIED (when they actually did try) to obey the Law, but they did not know that the Law was Spiritual and that obeying it required obedience in Spirit with a new Heart.  They failed to 'attain to righteousness' because they relied on their own performance (ritual, the letter of the law, etc).  The Gentiles had no such experience of TRYING with old hearts to obey the Laws God gave the Jews.  They've 'attained to righteousness' by faith, been given that new Heart, understand that the law and obedience to the law is Spiritual.

Jesus is the Stumbling Stone of the Jews (and all who seek to be under the Old Covenant.  Though you'd never get them to admit it, EVERY church seeks to be-- and place its members-- under the Old Covenant).  Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

There is far more to this teaching than that, but at least I hope this helped you get a better English understanding.  

[soberxp]

I understand now,much better,THX.understand that the law and obedience to the law is Spiritual.
can I say this?
yet we didn't do anything against the law,but if our mind is the scene of crime,that's still not obedience to the law,right? (cuz the inception of law is Spiritual).

[soberxp]

The little picture of Pinocchio's girlfriend threw me off for a second.

Longhorn

  that's what I want to be 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Rom 2:13  It is not those that merely hear the Law read who are righteous in the sight of God, but it is those that obey the Law who will be pronounced righteous.
Rom 9:30  To what conclusion does this bring us? Why, that the Gentiles, who were not in pursuit of righteousness, have overtaken it--a righteousness, however, which arises from faith;
Rom 9:31  while the descendants of Israel, who were in pursuit of a Law that could give righteousness, have not arrived at one.
Rom 9:32  And why? Because they were pursuing a righteousness which should arise not from faith, but from what they regarded as merit. They stuck their foot against the stone which lay in their way

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Arc

[soberxp]

Rom 2:13  It is not those that merely hear the Law read who are righteous in the sight of God, but it is those that obey the Law who will be pronounced righteous.
Rom 9:30  To what conclusion does this bring us? Why, that the Gentiles, who were not in pursuit of righteousness, have overtaken it--a righteousness, however, which arises from faith;
Rom 9:31  while the descendants of Israel, who were in pursuit of a Law that could give righteousness, have not arrived at one.
Rom 9:32  And why? Because they were pursuing a righteousness which should arise not from faith, but from what they regarded as merit. They stuck their foot against the stone which lay in their way

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Arc

THX.



take me to your heart

Michael Learns To Rock

Hiding from the rain and snow
Trying to forget but I won't let go
Looking at a crowded street
Listening to my own heart beat
So many people all around the world
Tell me where do I find someone like you girl
Take me to your heart take me to your soul
Give me your hand before I'm old
Show me what love is - haven't got a clue
Show me that wonders can be true
They say nothing lasts forever
We're only here today
Love is now or never
Bring me far away
Take me to your heart take me to your soul
Give me your hand and hold me
Show me what love is - be my guiding star
It's easy take me to your heart
Standing on a mountain high
Looking at the moon through a clear blue sky
I should go and see some friends
But they don't really comprehend
Don't need too much talking without saying anything
All I need is someone who makes me wanna sing(I always listening it as SIN?)
Take me to your heart take me to your soul
Give me your hand before I'm old
Show me what love is - haven't got a clue
Show me that wonders can be true
They say nothing lasts forever
We're only here today
Love is now or never
Bring me far away
Take me to your heart take me to your soul
Give me your hand and hold me
Show me what love is - be my guiding star
It's easy take me to your heart
Take me to your heart take me to your soul
Give me your hand and hold me
Show me what love is - be my guiding star
It's easy take me to your heart

[Dave in Tenn]

I understand now,much better,THX.understand that the law and obedience to the law is Spiritual.
can I say this?
yet we didn't do anything against the law,but if our mind is the scene of crime[,that's still not obedience to the law,right? (cuz the inception of law is Spiritual

I think that's right.  Of course, we have human, fallible judges who 'rule' the natural world we live in, and we are also subject to them.  Most importantly, we have a New Covenant with God.  And the judge in this Covenant is Spiritual and knows our hearts.   

[Kat]

Hi Soberxp,

Jesus goes into detail to explain how to keep the new covenant, which is the spirit of the law.

Mat 5:21  "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
v. 22  But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Mat 5:27  "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery.'
v. 28  But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mat 5:33  "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
v. 34  But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
v. 35  nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
v. 36  Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
v. 37  But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Mat 5:38  "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
v. 39  But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
v. 40  If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
v. 41  And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
v. 42  Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
v. 44  But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
v. 45  that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[soberxp]

Hi Soberxp,

Mat 5:
v. 28  But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

seems the hardest thing to me.

[darren]

Mat 5:38  "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
v. 39  But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
v. 40  If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
v. 41  And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
v. 42  Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

I don't get this?? am I actually not to resit an evil person?? I know I missing something here. It must be a  spiritual lesson that I don't see.

Darren

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

Here are a few places where Ray discusses this.

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm ------------------------

When Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill," they think that it should really read, "...I am not come to destroy, but to OBEY." Jesus clearly did NOT obey the "Law of Moses." "Fulfill" does not mean "OBEY." Christ's conscience is not guided by carnal commandments of the flesh. Jesus lived by a far, far higher and superior SPIRITUAL law.

Jesus did NOT obey "Thou shalt... swear by His [God's] Name" (Deut. 6:13), but said, "Swear NOT at all," in direct contradiction and opposition to the Law of Moses. "Swear NOT" is not a slight modification of "Thou SHALT swear," but is rather a complete contradiction of Moses' law.

Jesus did NOT obey, "Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, SO shall it be done to him again" (Lev. 24:20), but rather contradicted the Law of Moses with "Resist NOT evil: but... turn to him the other [cheek] also" (Matt. 5:39).

Jesus did NOT obey the Law of Moses which stated: "And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword ['HATE your enemy' Matt. 5:43]" (Lev. 26:7-8). It was, in fact, a SIN not to hate and kill their enemies, (Num. 32:20-23). But Jesus completely and totally contradicted Moses' Law by dogmatically stating:

"But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, BLESS them that curse you, and DO GOOD to them that hate you, and PRAY for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matt. 5:44).

Contrary to all the ridiculous unscriptural theories of theologians, "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES" is not just a slight modification of the law which said to "HATE and kill your enemies."
v
NO one will be saved by keeping the ten commandments and the Law of Moses. The rich young ruler kept the Ten Commandments (Mark 10:20). The Scribes and Pharisees kept the Law of Moses (Acts 15:5). But none of them will be saved by obeying that inferior law only:

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness [keeping the Ten Commandments, and the whole Law of Moses] of the Scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

Under Christ's New Covenant, we cannot "break one of these least commands" which Jesus instituted high above the carnal elements of the Law of Moses, (Matt. 5:19). Under Christ's New Covenant, one must be spiritually converted before he will ever be saved or see the Kingdom of God.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm ---------------------

"Ye have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil... turn to him the other [cheek] also" (Matt. 65:38-39).

Suffice it to say that according to all Jewish Scholars that I read (many), none teaches that this was ever enforced, literally. It meant to reimburse the harmed person in like value. And this apparently is the truth, seeing that we have this Scripture:

"You shall not avenge [take vengeance on], nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as thyself, I am the Lord" (Lev. 19:18). Certainly one was justified in being reimbursed for the value of a lost eye, hand, tooth, etc., but not that one person should avenge another by literally gauging out his brother's eye, if he were responsible for you loosing your eye. There is not one case of this being literally executed in Scriptures anymore than Jesus meant to literally pluck out our physical eyes, if we lusted in our heart. However, there are examples of this being fulfilled in kind. Jesus' command in no way contradicts or does away with the "eye for an eye" principle. In modern times we carry insurance for just such times as we need to reimburse in kind (value) those who are injured (as in an auto accident were someone might loose an arm or leg or eye).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html ---

Mat 5:39 "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

How many do that? Do we really have to do that? Somebody sues us, we sue them back, right? Isn't that the American way? Sure it is. We have to stop doing those things. We have to start doing what's right. Always. You can't do it unless you are regenerated, born again, converted, spiritually in your heart, and have God's spirit. These things are too tough. Even with God's spirit it's tough! I mean, you're going to think you did a lot of these things yourself it's so tough. But God is the one who is going to see you through it.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=1568.0 -----

It doesn't matter what I believe. Jesus said "Resist NOT evil...." and "LOVE your enemies...."  We can't do that by KILLING THEM.  Trusting God is something that virtually no human on earth is willing to do.  God is an enemy to our enemies, but virtually no one is willing to accept that. Almost no one looks to God and trusts God for ALL THEIR NEEDS.

God be with you,

Ray

[darren]

So we are NOT to resit evil?? Sorry Kat I still do not understand.

Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Darren

Resisting the DEVIL and not resisting EVIL are two different things that BOTH have to be followed. They do not contradict.

Jas 4:7  Submit therefore to God: resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.

SUBMIT TO GOD It is evil to NOT submit to God. God sends us our circumstances that are good AND EVIL.

Our rulers can be evil, enemies or foes who bring us evil circumstances. If an evil ruler of ours crosses the line of what we know is a commandment of God, then we are to follow God not men. To otherwise resist stopping at a red robot, paying tax, behaving in an illegal fashion or against the system that can make us experience suffering and grief, is not what we are to do. This is not the will of God for us.

To go against the rules of State and Authority of its Powers and conditions is not what we are to do. We are to submit, comply and co-operate with our "rulers". This is God's will.

Rom 13:2  Therefore the man who rebels against his ruler is resisting God's will; and those who thus resist will bring punishment upon themselves.

Mat 5:39  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Jesus resisted the DEVIL by not resisting his hunger or thirst in the forty days He was lead by The Spirit of God to show us how to resist the Devil.
Jas 4:7  Submit therefore to God: resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.

As Craig sometimes has said, "as clear as mud!"

Arc

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

Here is the verse in the Good News Bible.

GNB
Mat 5:38  "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'
v. 39  But now I tell you: do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, let him slap your left cheek too.

We are not to be revengeful, which is spirit of hate and strife. We should understand that God is very much aware (is indeed the ultimate cause) of everything and every situation. So we are to learn to have self-control and patiently endure what confronts us.

Rom 12:17  Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
v. 18  If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
v. 19  Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.

I think this is expressing that believers are not to be aggressive and should use self-control and not lash out in anger.  We need to use good judgment in how to live, striving to be peaceful. God in wisdom will repay to each what needs to be. We can seek the help of the authorities that He has put in place, this can be the means He uses to help us.

1Ti 2:1  Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
v. 2  for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
v. 3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
v. 4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Darren I know that there are all kinds of situations that can be thought of where you may ask; would I just stand by and not do anything if...
We are the few, we are striving to fully trust and obey God, He is sovereign and will never let us down. We have to trust Him and get our thinking in the direction that He is always here with us. Remember how the servant of Elisha had his eyes opened to how the Lord was ready and able to protect them.

2Kings 6:15  And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
v. 16  So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
v. 17  And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Just my way of thinking.

mercy, peace and love
Kat