January 15, (2599 years ago)

[hillsbororiver]

Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon lays siege to Jerusalem (January 15, 588 BC.) under Zedekiah's reign. The siege lasts until July 23, 586 BC.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=30&letter=L  (This is a rather clinical analysis/observation by the Encyclopedia writers)

Ever wonder about what inspired Jeremiah to create the songs and poetry of Lamentations? Well yes, it was the Spirit of God first and foremost but there was also this earthly experience as he witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem...

The style of this and other (especially OT) books of the bible is called an "acrostic poem"... These 5 Chapters are an interesting study (kind of a redundant statement since ALL scripture fits that description) because the first 2 Chapters have 22 verses (the same amount of letters in the Hebrew alphabet which is also the root of this poetic style), the 3rd has 66 and the last 2 also have 22 verses, you might ask what the significance of this might be, I haven't much of a clue other than Chapter 3 has hope and faith within it's (66) verses...

I won't get into any speculative details but I am sure there are some folks here familiar with this and if you are not it is easy enough to search it online.

The one point I feel confident in making is that this extreme anxiety expressed by Jeremiah comes to us all at some point, or multiple points in our journey whether the internal turmoil is due to physical, earthly pain or spiritual poverty where we "lament" our current state of being...

Below is Chapter 3, Note the lack of mercy Jeremiah has for his enemies the last 22 verses;

Lamentations 3

1I AM the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.

2He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

3Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day.

4My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones.

5He hath builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.

6He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.

7He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.

8Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.

9He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.

10He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.

11He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate.

12He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

13He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

14I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.

15He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.

16He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.

17And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.

18And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

19Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

20My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.

21This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

22It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

23They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

24The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.

25The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.

26It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

27It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.

28He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.

29He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.

30He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.

31For the LORD will not cast off for ever:

32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

34To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.

35To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,

36To subvert a man in his cause, the LORD approveth not.

37Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

39Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

40Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

41Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.

42We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.

43Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.

44Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.

45Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.

46All our enemies have opened their mouths against us.

47Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.

48Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people.

49Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission.

50Till the LORD look down, and behold from heaven.

51Mine eye affecteth mine heart because of all the daughters of my city.

52Mine enemies chased me sore, like a bird, without cause.

53They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.

54Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.

55I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.

56Thou hast heard my voice: hide not thine ear at my breathing, at my cry.

57Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee: thou saidst, Fear not.

58O LORD, thou hast pleaded the causes of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.

59O LORD, thou hast seen my wrong: judge thou my cause.

60Thou hast seen all their vengeance and all their imaginations against me.

61Thou hast heard their reproach, O LORD, and all their imaginations against me;

62The lips of those that rose up against me, and their device against me all the day.

63Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their musick.

64Render unto them a recompence, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.

65Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.

66Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the LORD.

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

It appears Jonah had the same issues (we do or did)...

Jonah 4

1But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.

2And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

3Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.

4Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?

5So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.

6And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.

7But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

8And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.

9And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.

10Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:

11And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Contrast Jeremiah and Jonah with what Abraham prayed...

.Genesis 18

16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:

28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Peace,

Joe

[judith collier]

Joe, I love to read the psalms when I am upset as they address every emotion i might have. I love the way God tears down and then builds up. And I love to smite my enemies (at least for the moment) Hope resides in the Lord!
Love, judy

[GaryK]

'Lament our spiritual poverty.'


Those words are so nicely, coldly, descriptive but wring out the truth, like a rough squeeze.  

Good words Joe.



2He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

6He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.

7He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.


Makes me think of the dark corners we don't want to go but are pulled (pushed?) toward.   Is it the 'flesh' that is too strong and we simply give in out of spiritual weakness, losing the battle (s)?, or is it the Lord making us enter those desolate spiritual wastelands?  Both?  Regardless, roaming those wastelands is un-nerving to spiritual balance.   Not a feel-good journey.    


But:


31For the LORD will not cast off for ever:

Make it so Lord.

gk

[hillsbororiver]

Joe, I love to read the psalms when I am upset as they address every emotion i might have. I love the way God tears down and then builds up. And I love to smite my enemies (at least for the moment) Hope resides in the Lord!
Love, judy

Hi Judy,

Yes, Psalms can be a tonic to our troubled spirit and also at times magnify our hope in the promises we have been given. You are so right about the "tears down and builds up" process it is not a one time thing (for me at least) where you get thoroughly humbled and then His Spirit refreshes our spirit and we live happily ever after...

This has been a cycle I have seen, felt and experienced in varying degrees the past 6 or 7 years and my hope is always that when the refreshing begins I emerge stronger in Spirit and closer to the goal of not only having faith in Christ but having the faith of Christ.

Peace,

Joe   

[hillsbororiver]

'Lament our spiritual poverty.'


Those words are so nicely, coldly, descriptive but wring out the truth, like a rough squeeze.  

Good words Joe.



2He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.

6He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.

7He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.


Makes me think of the dark corners we don't want to go but are pulled (pushed?) toward.   Is it the 'flesh' that is too strong and we simply give in out of spiritual weakness, losing the battle (s)?, or is it the Lord making us enter those desolate spiritual wastelands?  Both?  Regardless, roaming those wastelands is un-nerving to spiritual balance.   Not a feel-good journey.    


But:


31For the LORD will not cast off for ever:

Make it so Lord.

gk

Hi Gary,

I see you can relate to this spiritual poverty that I seem to weave in and out of...

Anyway I believe you have it right about all the above that you posted, we are drawn into the wilderness so we can experience how weak the flesh really is and how easily when we attempt to overcome with our own "strength" we fail miserably, backed into the proverbial corner where our last and greatest hope is in God.

I suppose we need this refinement so that reflexively and instinctively we rely on Him first in all things before being backed into any corner of the wilderness...

Peace,

Joe   

[G. Driggs]

Timely thread. Wonder if this is the "prison" talked about in Revelation and other places?

So do others go through the same "cycle"? Is this the norm for those God might be calling?

G. Driggs

[hillsbororiver]

Hi George,

I believe you are on the right track, here are a couple excerpts from the "12 Truths" (#8) paper...


...This dear reader, is how the Old Covenant was written for "OUR admonition..."

Does anyone believe that this is the ONLY "allegory" in the Old Testament which is written for OUR admonition. Hardly—the Old Testament is FILLED with such allegories, but who has "ears to hear and eyes to see?" And "who will believe our report?" The whole book of Revelation is explained in the Old Testament Scriptures, but the theologians of this world do not and cannot discern it. They all teach that Revelation is a book of end-time, end-of-the-world eschatology. They have not a clue.

Paul constantly referred to the Old Testament Scriptures in his epistles, and he taught the whole plan of salvation from the Old Testament Scriptures, as they were the only Scriptures available during his ministry.

The very last sentence of Truth #8 is...

If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are.

Peace,

Joe

[geokuhns]

I can relate Joe. I'm married 53 years today. Oh! Hi honey. I'm just kidding. 

[GaryK]

Hi Joe.

When I first began working with horses an old-timer told me about training a horse, he said:

'get both eyes'

I thought, well, that's a dumb saying.  I didn't understand at first.  It didn't take long to grasp his finer point.  A beast 6 times the weight of a man with independent rear suspension and omni-directional kicking ability, with not the slightest sense of guilty conscience, is not to be disregarded.     It's all about attention.  He has yours, you have his.


And Ray says:

"Having a working knowledge of these relative and contrasting terms and concepts is absolutely essential in living our lives. We must all come to know and to experience both good and evil. And so man's life consists of a combination of both good and evil thoughts, words, and deeds. The most saintly of men have had their flaws and the most evil of men have possessed at least a few qualities of good."

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html



You quoted Ray:

"The very last sentence of Truth #8 is...

If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are."


I can identify with this:

Exo 7:23  And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also.

And this:

"Beast? What beast? I don't see any beast within myself. I am not perfect by any means, but I am certainly not a beast.

We shall see."

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html


Joe, I can relate.

I think God operates under the same plan, 'get both eyes'.

And I'm beginning to believe there's a reason he has me working with horses.

[hillsbororiver]

I can relate Joe. I'm married 53 years today. Oh! Hi honey. I'm just kidding. 

Hi George,

Congratulations on 53 years!

You know you might be treading in dangerous waters there... I have found the "Oh honey, I am just kidding" is not always a sufficient defense once the original words are processed by our better halves.... 

Peace,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joe.

When I first began working with horses an old-timer told me about training a horse, he said:

'get both eyes'

I thought, well, that's a dumb saying.  I didn't understand at first.  It didn't take long to grasp his finer point.  A beast 6 times the weight of a man with independent rear suspension and omni-directional kicking ability, with not the slightest sense of guilty conscience, is not to be disregarded.     It's all about attention.  He has yours, you have his.


And Ray says:

"Having a working knowledge of these relative and contrasting terms and concepts is absolutely essential in living our lives. We must all come to know and to experience both good and evil. And so man's life consists of a combination of both good and evil thoughts, words, and deeds. The most saintly of men have had their flaws and the most evil of men have possessed at least a few qualities of good."

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html



You quoted Ray:

"The very last sentence of Truth #8 is...

If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are."


I can identify with this:

Exo 7:23  And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also.

And this:

"Beast? What beast? I don't see any beast within myself. I am not perfect by any means, but I am certainly not a beast.

We shall see."

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html


Joe, I can relate.

I think God operates under the same plan, 'get both eyes'.

And I'm beginning to believe there's a reason he has me working with horses.

Hello George,

That is a great analogy, it is my belief (and it is hard to refute with "both eyes" wide open) that we can get some very relevant spiritual insights by observing His earthly creation.

I am acutely aware of my current deficiencies at this snapshot of time, I am either looking (some might say naval gazing) at the past in regard to the people I hurt or treated callously or I am looking at the (short and long term) future of this country (or any country for that matter) in regard to what we are leaving our young ones. Yes, I know intellectually that Jesus admonished us to not give "thought for the morrow" (Matt 6:34) but I really need a doubling (at least) of His Spirit to get past this temporary phase.

People that are able to just live in the moment are for the most part the happiest, unless of course their present reality is nothing but pain, anxiety and suffering from a lack of basic human needs. This is where the animal kingdom (and perhaps by extension the natural beast/man) has a temporal advantage, they live in the moment... What happened in the past is past and "let us drink, eat for we all shall die tomorrow." (1Co 15:32)

Now on the other hand we have a hope they (unbelievers) do not have, they actually scoff at it, many of (not all) the church folk also feel insulated because they will be either whisked away by the rapture or are already "saved" and all is well...

The animal kingdom actually follow the Words of Christ better than me when it comes to worrying about the past or future, they don't contemplate their own mortality (we shouldn't because we are alive in Him), they have no guilt about past deeds (we are forgiven) nor do they agonize over the future of their prodigy (all are saved).

Come to think of it our cats are closer to the goal than I am right now! Even though I believe, I believe His promises my core being is still (or has returned to) struggling with this reality.

Paul spoke of it being an advantage to not be married (obviously not having children) 1Cor 7:32-33 because we are all too prone to put them and their temporal earthly needs at the forefront of our minds, pleasing them rather than pleasing the Lord first. I know it sounds cold but I can see this clearly, what happens to me or if I find myself in dire straits (and I have in the past) there is nowhere near the intense anxiety that I would feel putting my family in an undesirable situation.

Often I find myself wondering "what if" ....

I could write more but I will give it a rest for now.

Peace,

Joe

           

[judith collier]

Joe, you are right! This process of tearing down and rebuilding better is NOT a one time thing, it's seemingly endless!!!!
I have been torn down and rebuilt so many times that yrs. ago I started to write a poem about my deaths and ressurections. It's still happening and i've been at this for 37 yrs. I grant you I was very very troubled yrs. ago but was observing a while back how many old habits and ways of thinking have fallen by the wayside and I tell God, "I think I'm just about strong enough now IF you don't mind" Then I usually add "sorry" because I see and hear of people in the world that suffer so much more and I am grateful.
Just don't forget your humanity, God knows we are nothing and yet we are precious to Him. Never get too lonely, talk to other believers. Their prayers have benefitted me more than they will ever know. Sorrow and confusion is easier when shared with people who love you. Life takes courage and believe me old age takes even more but you know now it isn't a matter of courage but trusting and believing from all the overcoming that has taken place. And get up every day as though it was your first day on earth, forget yesterday and then take a deep breath and plunge in to the ever different now! Today is always different in some way. There really is nothing to worry about if you believe God loves you.  Love, judy

[Deborah-Leigh]

I find that sweet words, only come out, under great duress, of immense suffering.

Arc

[longhorn]

GaryK 

Working with horses sounds interesting.  Never done it myself, although I have worked with a bunch of Jack Asses.

Longhorn

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Judy,

Thank you very much for the testimony and encouragement, it isn't that I don't realize what is going on, I know this will pass... The past few weeks have been like a Twilight Zone version of the old TV show "This is Your Life"...

Hello Deb, you are absolutely right!

It isn't like we haven't been warned what is in store, only that we must deal with it faithfully.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Thanks to all who responded!

Peace,

Joe

[bluzman]

Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

HI Joe,
Had I known what I was in for I know for sure that I would have stayed in the dark. It was how I came to the little bit of understanding that I now have, being dragged along that painful and rocky road, and the loss of loved ones so dear to me.
I am getting what I asked for I guess.
Ches

[gmik]

Hi Joe.

great thread, kinda way deep for me to even begin to say something worthy, but....(always a but!)

I am re reading Tolkein's  The Hobbit  right now and the Lamentations and Psalms must have been used in his book.  Same feelings I get...seems like darkness comes first, then the light.

In 2599 years, not much has changed w/ the beast inside.

[grapehound]

Hey Ches,
I so identified with what you just said.
Thanks Bro'
and Thank you, Joe, for a great thread.

Love and Gratitude.

Grape