Please correct/direct part 2

[Duane]

I read (on the edge of my seat)  a long time back that there was no Trinity--in fact, Jesus was God's FIRST creation (the first-fruit)
(Boy, did that FROST my sister when I gave her Ray's article in hard copy!)  No 3 in 1?  (I was a blasphemer!)
Anyhow, VS:7-    "If ye had known Me, you would have known my Father also;  and from now on you know Him and have seen Him. Philip said to Him, 'Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us'".  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip?  He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say "show me the Father?"

Thinking SPIRITUAL rather than PHYSICALLY--from Ray's reading I gleaned that Jesus was a created, separate spirit/being from the Father--especially in Earthly body form--but (here's the insight) Jesus could invoke the father's full will and character into His body so talking/seeing Jesus WAS seeing the Father, yet "no one has ever seen the Father".  SO Jesus and the Father can morph
back and forth BEING and REPRESENTING each other perfectly and yet be separate.  Humanly, my father and I are totally separate
people, but if he were yet alive, what if I, as his son, could have his knowledge, experience and wisdom permiate my being so I could TOTALLY represent him by, in essence, BE-yet not be- him?  Am I starting to "get" things??
The holy spirit could then be BOTH their wills/desires, transmuted into Christians, without being a separate person but still representing both of them--having the ability to grieve, intercede etc.

[Dave in Tenn]

What do you mean by "invoke the Father's full will and character into His (Christ's) body"? 

Maybe this is too large a question for a forum post to answer.  Ray spent a good portion of the last Bible Study on the relationship between Father and Son...and still left much for 'later'.  If you haven't, I'd strongly recommend viewing, listening or reading the study.

One other comment to make:  There is no trinity of three persons.  There is no duality of two persons.  There is only One who can be called a "person" in the god-head...and that is Jehovah, Yaweh...also known as Jesus of Nazareth.  He and His Father are One.  That's where the family begins.  Somebody else will have to point out where this is taught.  I suck at such things, usually.        

[longhorn]

Even if I could help you out, the answer would take about 2 paragraphs to type and that in itself would take me through the month of April and 16 days into May.

Longhorn

[Kat]

Hi Duane,

I think you have the right idea. The way I look at it, God the Father is a being, but as Ray has mentioned He is not a man. I really think God the Father is just beyond our comprehension. He designed us in a physical/visible form and made our minds to relate to that.

Jesus Christ was the beginning of God's creation and meant to be the God, creator and substainer of this universe.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

This whole reason for this universe was to bring human being into existence that would ultimately be brought into His image and into the God family. Jesus Christ was created by the Father to be the closest thing to Himself that there could be, without being Him.

Jesus Christ operates by the same Holy Spirit that the Father possesses and therefore They are totally and perfectly in sync. When Jesus said "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," it meant that He represents the Father perfectly, all His traits manifest thought Jesus; character, disposition, temperament and everything. The Holy Spirit is the unifying factor in Them and was the complete guiding force in Christ, that's why, "through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father" (Eph 2:18).

The whole 5th chapter of John is Christ explaining His relationship with the Father.

John 5:19  Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:26  For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself,

John 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
v. 29  And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Col 1:19  For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

I feel it's good to share these thoughts, so that maybe we can help one another with these mysteries.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

To tack on to Kat's post--not only is the Father not a man, He is not a spirit.  He IS Spirit.

Joh 4:23-24 But coming is the hour, and now is, when the true worshipers will be worshiping the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also is seeking such to be worshiping Him."  God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth." 

That's another passage mentioned in the latest study.  For me, this statement from Christ to the Samaritan woman raises even more questions.  But that's the glory of kings to search these things out without contradiction.

[Duane]

Dave in Tenn...I guess Kat straightened out my faulty thinking re: "invoking".  Will you direct me to Ray's last writing's title and I will look into it myself.  thank you.

[Kat]

Hi Duane,

Here are the links to the audios of the last Bible study 'Is Jesus God?"
http://bible-truths.com/audio/IsJesusGod1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/IsJesusGod2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/IsJesusGod3.mp3

Here is the tramscript.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html

[Duane]

To John, Dave, Longhorn and Kat.  Thanx for responding to me.  Hopefully, many others will add onto your thoughts.
I am beginning to see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one invisible spirit juxtapositioned on each other so if you were to "see" them, you would look right thru ALL of them as ONE, not being able to distinguish one from another and not see any of them
as you were looking, because they are spirit. BUT, they were separated when Jesus came in form as a man.
Kind of like the 3 in the fire-y furnace and "Neb" saying "don't I see a fourth person in there"?  lf they did have a human body at that point, they would have disinigrated (sp).  ALL were spirit at that point but when
retrieved from the furnace, they resumed their earthly bodies and didn't even smell of smoke!

An aside, the four spirits in the fire-y furnace obviously DIDN'T feel pain.   Does this remind anyone else of the hell misconception
of spirits suffering forever and ever and ever in pain?  (I had to throw in a couple of "ever's" to be consistent with the teaching.)
You can't burn a spirit!

[Duane]

John from Tennessee...Getting away from the "egg" analogy of the trinity of "three in one".  I now see the three as twol and the two, as one. "I and the Father are One."   I guess I see a better analogy as three panes of glass.  If you press the three panes together and look at them, you see through all three, you can't see where one pane leaves off an another begins and they all blend in as "one" yet they are separate.  The only time they separated is when jesus came to earth you  could "see thru the glass" but it was "as one" with the others.  The Holy Spirit is represented by the transparency of the glass but doesn't have to be a separate pane to be part of it all.  SO when seeing Jesus on earth, His transparency was perfectly represented by the Father.
There IS NO perfect analogy but this is as close as I can imagine it.  No heart attacks, please!  I KNOW this is faulty. 

[gmik]

duane, I have enjoyed reading your various posts. Kat expressed that so well for me- I dunno- I can't hear it often enough it is so good!

John are you referring to the NASHVILLE conference about the long suffering??  That was awesome!!...and also Ray mentioned about how maybe Jesus was "birthed" thru travail -I can't remember everything but it gives me chills everytime I think about it.

Oh yes, GOD, is toooooo big for our finite minds...for right now and that is all in His Plan...we shall see Him as He is....in due time.

Good discussion!!

I dont know about the egg thingy- but if it works for you- hey keep pressing- a hearts hunger will be fed by our willing Father.

[JohnMichael]

I'm not going to even pretend to know the answer to this, but I wondered something while reading your post.

What if the Father were to be compared to the light of a flashlight in a dark room? The light spreads out in all directions, but its focus is on one spot. Could Christ be the "spot" or focus to mankind?