The Cross

[ranrae]

Hi Everyone,

I am a long time reader (5 years) of Ray's articles, but just now decided to join the forum. I have a question that is puzzling me. My friend and I have been having an email discussion about Christ and punishment. He says that," if there is no punishment in Hell for our sins, then Christ died on the cross for nothing". Could someone give me the best example or explanation for him? I am having a hard time conveying my thoughts to him.

In Peace And Love
Randy

[Craig]

Where does the scriptures say Christ died to save us from hell?  I always thougt is was to save us from sin and death.  The punishment for sin is death, thus we all die.

Don't waste your time conveying your thoughts to him, study to show yourself approved and become sure in your own thoughts.

Craig

[Rene]

Hi Randy and welcome to the forum!

Here is an email question and reply from Ray that should be of some help.

René

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10439.msg89549/boardseen.html#new

What does Jesus Christ save us from?  

Dear Ray,

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your articles so far and they have
brought me peace. I could never worship a God who condemns any Being to
an eternity in hellfire. Your website hit me at a time when I
desperately needed an alternate interpretation of my beloved savior,
Jesus Christ. However, I'm confused with regards what Jesus saves us
from in light of the realization of the fact that there isn't hell? God
will save us all! Traditionally we are told Christ saves us from hell.
Is it just that Jesus Christ saves us from non-being? As the fruit of
sin is death and the fruit of faith in Jesus Christ is eternal life.

Thank You for your time and God Bless You,

Justin


Dear Justin:

I am asked this question continually, but just why, I haven't a clue.  You almost answered your own question and don't even realizie it.  "The fruit of sin IS DEATH."  Now then, since all humanity sins, just Who do you think will SAVE US FROM THIS DEATH?

Furthermore, Jesus saves from SIN!  He also saves us from sickness & disease, heartache, fear, hate, war, enemies, stupidity, ignorance, selfishness, deception, wickedness, vanity, depression, arrogance, laziness, weakness, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

God be with you,

Ray

[Kat]

Hi Randy,

Welcome to the forum 

I think your friend is relating 'hell' to punishment and if there is no hell, then there is no punishment. But there is punishment, as we all must give account.

Heb 4:13  And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Another thing that your friend doesn't seem to understand is to die is 'death,' not being alive in eternal torture. Our hope is that Christ died and was resurrected back to life.

1Co 15:16  For if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not raised.
v. 17  And if Christ is not raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins.
v. 18  Then also those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.
v. 19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
v. 20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
v. 21  For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22  For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL will be made alive.

So first things first, we have to be resurrected from the state of the dead, that is our hope in Christ Jesus and then God will merit out proper judgment due to all in the lake of fire.

Acts 24:15  And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rom 2:5  But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
v. 6  who will render to each according to his works;
v. 7  indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.
v. 8  But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
v. 9  tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[ranrae]

Thanks everyone, for your help. I think you are correct Craig. I planted the seed and God will do the growing, if it is meant for him to be in the first resurrection. It just amazes me that so many so called Christians believe tradition over truth! Just because great, great grand-pappy says so, they believe it and pass it on to the next generation and so on.

In Peace And Love!
Randy

[Joel]

Greetings Randy,
Jesus came to reconcile us to God, not to pronounce more than death on humanity.
Seems to me we are born on this earth and many don't have it so good, we go through trials and tribulations, are sick and diseased. We are full of pains and torments, and even the Church is down on us, and would cast a spell upon us like some kind of voodoo gods, in order to get us to conform to their views of God.
Paul said this;
Colossians 1:20 (KJV) And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Colossians 1:20 (LB) It was through what his Son did that God cleared a path for everything to come to him- all things in heaven and on the earth- for Christ's death on the cross has made peace with God for ALL by his blood.

Not everyone is able to see the simplicity that is in Christ, that Ray is so apt at teaching.

Paul said; 2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, least by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Joel

[daywalker]

Hi Everyone,

I am a long time reader (5 years) of Ray's articles, but just now decided to join the forum. I have a question that is puzzling me. My friend and I have been having an email discussion about Christ and punishment. He says that," if there is no punishment in Hell for our sins, then Christ died on the cross for nothing". Could someone give me the best example or explanation for him? I am having a hard time conveying my thoughts to him.

In Peace And Love
Randy

My response would be: IF there IS punishment in Hell for our sins, then what the heck did Christ die for? If all we need to do to be saved from Hell is believe in God and say sorry for our sins, then Christ's sacrifice was pointless.

Daywalker 

[gmik]

welcome Randy!!

[Extol]

Hi Randy,

You have gotten some good responses so far. I think Kat hit the nail on the head when she said that your friend is thinking "hell=judgment/punishment". That's what Christians have been trained to think; they don't consider that there is an alternative option of temporary judgment. It's all or nothing. Any time they read "judgment", "punishment", or "death", hell is probably what comes to mind.

And as Daywalker hinted (and Ray has said this many times), your friend has it backwards. The question should be: "If there IS everlasting punishment, then why did Christ have to die?" Of course, Christians will reply that Christ's love is so great that He would have died to save even one man, never mind the fact that He was commissioned to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14).

Here are some Scriptures listing some of the things we are saved from:
   
      "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of SIN and DEATH." (Rom. 8:2)
       
   
      "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call His name JESUS: for he shall save His people from their SINS" (Matt. 1:21)
       
   
      "And He shall redeem [save] Israel from all his INIQUITIES [Heb. 'evil/SIN']"(Psalm 130:
       
   
      "Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem [save] us from all INIQUITY [Gk: 'evil/SIN]" (Titus 2:14)
       
   
      "Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Thy name: and deliver us [deliver means 'save'], and purge away our SINS, for Thy name's sake" (Psa. 79:9)
       
   
      "But God will redeem ['rescue/save] my soul from the power of the GRAVE [Heb: 'sheol--hades, the state of the dead']" (Psalm 49:15)
       
   
      "Who delivered us from so great a DEATH, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that He will yet deliver us" (II Cor. 1:10)
       
   
      "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from DEATH: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction..." (Hosea 13:14).

[Duane]

Ranray...I have run into this often, where people say "if there is no punishment of hell for sinners, then why did Jesus die on the cross"?  I have found that many Christians are scared the the sinners of the world are going to "get away with living their lives as they please and then die with no punishment" and it seems to make them mad because they have tried to live a better life and therefore deserve heaven or a better reward.   
this kind of thinking will be cleansed away in the Lake of Fire.  That reasoning is essentially saying that
they are afraid "God won't give the sinner as just of a punishment as they would" if they were in charge.
Doesn't that sound vindictive--showing a lack of trust in God's ability to be JUST?
P.S. I, like you, ran into assundry conflcts of this B-T reading and the teaching of "the Church of Babylon"
BUT just keep reading and reading and voila! God will have it all fall together into a cohesive whole. 

[ranrae]

Thanks everyone. You have been very helpful!

[Foxx]

I've always liked what Ray says, if Jesus' death only saves some of the world then they (Christianity) think his sacrifice was a success but if his death saves the WHOLE world then his sacrifice was pointless.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Had Jesus not RISEN from the death He endured, then His death wouldn't have saved anyone! ~

Had the death of Jesus not been so graphic, we might have said He only had a near death experience! ~

Arc

[DougE6]

As painful and brutal and bloody and torturous as Jesus death was, and as much as I am awed by it, what he suffered, I am also comforted. I am comforted by his clear and ringing proclamation on how much he loved us, by dying for us.  I am also comforted by the cross when I see the immense suffering going on around me, in the torturous prison camps, throughout all the ages.  The horrors that victims suffered during the Inquisition, and at the hands of merciless enemies over the centuries.  I am comforted that Jesus experienced something very akin to the worst of what man can do to each other. So He has been there, and knows it well. I am amazed that God, through Jesus, did not exempt himself from experiencing the worst of the trials on this earth, that He knew some of us would have to experience, in this vale of tears.  No one can ever accuse God of not complete participation in te pain and suffering that he has subjected us to, in His wonderful plans to make mankind his sons and daughters.  Not only is the end in view, so glorious and worth it, but the very great, nearly unbeleivable, pain that was demanded, that would fall on some disproportionately, he also was willing to subject His was and Only to, also.  So God is more than fair in His dealings with mankind. Much more than fair.

[Duane]

Foxx...your quote of Ray nearly made me fall out of the chair!  WOW, what a "way with words"!  You can bet I will store that in my L-T memory.

DougE6...brilliant, couldn't have been said better!  As I once posted, it makes me furious to see the painted picture of the crucification and know the horrible scene as you described and then see the
death of Jesus on the cross portrayed as this skinny, effeminate man with a clean body, crown of thorns
and a well placed little trickle of blood going down His forehead!  Someone spent much time painting the picture when a few minutes of Bible reading would have revealed that He was hardly recognizable as a man.  Grrrr! 

[Foxx]

Foxx...your quote of Ray nearly made me fall out of the chair!  WOW, what a "way with words"!  You can bet I will store that in my L-T memory.

DougE6...brilliant, couldn't have been said better!  As I once posted, it makes me furious to see the painted picture of the crucification and know the horrible scene as you described and then see the
death of Jesus on the cross portrayed as this skinny, effeminate man with a clean body, crown of thorns
and a well placed little trickle of blood going down His forehead!  Someone spent much time painting the picture when a few minutes of Bible reading would have revealed that He was hardly recognizable as a man.  Grrrr! 

Ha, glad you liked it. Yes, well Ray certainly does have a way reasoning certain things that make it very simple. It's become easier and easier over the last year of study on this site to understand these things and I find myself more and more able to see these types of truths without having to come back to ray's page and look. So i suppose I am learning, ha!

[gmik]

Foxx and Duane---I had the exact same reaction to that quote!!!  Wow, I can't wait to use it on someone!

Uh oh...no sorry, that was not very nice of me! heehee

[daywalker]

Foxx...your quote of Ray nearly made me fall out of the chair!  WOW, what a "way with words"!  You can bet I will store that in my L-T memory.

DougE6...brilliant, couldn't have been said better!  As I once posted, it makes me furious to see the painted picture of the crucification and know the horrible scene as you described and then see the
death of Jesus on the cross portrayed as this skinny, effeminate man with a clean body, crown of thorns
and a well placed little trickle of blood going down His forehead!  Someone spent much time painting the picture when a few minutes of Bible reading would have revealed that He was hardly recognizable as a man.  Grrrr! 

Ha, glad you liked it. Yes, well Ray certainly does have a way reasoning certain things that make it very simple. It's become easier and easier over the last year of study on this site to understand these things and I find myself more and more able to see these types of truths without having to come back to ray's page and look. So i suppose I am learning, ha!

It's amazing what we can see and comprehend after we "unlearn" all the nonsense and burn up all the garage that's been piled on top of us!! It's funny how many times over the past year plus during religious discussions someone has accused me of being "perhaps too smart" or that my "intelligence" confuses and deceives me..... makes me L L every time... if they only knew me, hahaha! (i mean, really, the only reason I sound half-way smart online is because I have www.thefreedictionary.com saved in my Internet favorites!) 

Daywalker