Roman 5:12

[dave]

I want to get back to the Adams mother post, this was something I have been studying and I felt it out of place with the Adams mother post.


Rom 5:12  because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

I have always been told that this "one man" was/is adam. Here is where, for me anyway, I get to reasoning, the Bible does not say in Gen.3 that man/woman/adam sinned.

Now in Gen. 4:7 is the first time "sin" is used and it is in reference to Cain.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I am given to see that Adam is man(kind) Cain/adam/man(kind) commited sin.

[mharrell08]

So then Paul writes in Rom.5:12 "through one man the sin" now we know that man/woman/adam disobeyed but did not sin. At least the writer does not use that word.

Why would disobedience not be a sin?

[Craig]

The sin occurred before any disobedience, didn't Eve lust after the fruit before she ate it?

Craig

[dave]

So then Paul writes in Rom.5:12 "through one man the sin" now we know that man/woman/adam disobeyed but did not sin. At least the writer does not use that word.

Why would disobedience not be a sin?

Iam sure it is, but my question would be, if it so obvious, why didnt Paul call it that?

[dave]

The sin occurred before any disobedience, didn't Eve lust after the fruit before she ate it?

Craig

What sin occurred before the disobedience? I dont read a possibility of sin until Gen.4:7.
"didn't Eve lust after the fruit before she ate it?"
Yes, Ray has pointed that out. I had not seen that, but it is plain in Gen. 3:6.

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

Man/woman/Adam in Gen.3 "disobeyed" what he was charged not to do in Gen. 2:17 and that when he did he would begin dying, not physically but as every person Ive read or listened to calls "spiritual death," yet I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible where "spiritual death" is located and mentioned as spiritual death; I understand what it is, but well Ive been here before so Ill leave that.

This part about "spiritual death," I think this is the premise of the church that man is a spiritual being to start with and falls from grace when they sin. Here is their teaching of the fall of man starting with Adam in a nutshell.

The Fall of Man
An expression probably borrowed from the Apocryphal Book of Wisdom, to express the fact of the revolt of our first parents from God, and the consequent sin and misery in which they and all their posterity were involved.

There is a spiritual death in trespasses and sins, i.e., the death of the soul under the power of sin (Rom_8:6; Eph_2:1, Eph_2:3; Col_2:13).
(Easton's Bible Dictionary)

Man is not a spiritual being from his beginning and revolts, but a carnal fleshly being right from the start. The only way the soul will die is if the person dies, then their spirit (breath of life) returns to God and the body deteriorates back into the earth, which combined makes the soul.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death...
Eph 2:1  And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins...
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins...

These Scriptures all state what our condition is from birth, we are carnal, yes spiritual dead and blind to the truth. Until God draws us to Him and gives us the Holy Spirit, we will remain carnal/flesh/spiritually dead to the day that we physically die. That is how it is for the 'many' in the world, all are carnal "sold under sin" right from the day we are born.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15  For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:23  but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (Paul's converted mind), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Yes who shall deliver any of us from this body of death? We all know the answer to this.

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Jesus Christ indwelling is what gives us spiritual LIFE, it only is given to the 'few' for now the rest 'many' will not be given this life in Jesus Christ until they are resurrected back to physical life in the next age.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

Amen Kat.

[daywalker]

Hi Micah7:9,

Man/woman/Adam in Gen.3 "disobeyed" what he was charged not to do in Gen. 2:17 and that when he did he would begin dying, not physically but as every person Ive read or listened to calls "spiritual death," yet I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible where "spiritual death" is located and mentioned as spiritual death; I understand what it is, but well Ive been here before so Ill leave that.

This part about "spiritual death," I think this is the premise of the church that man is a spiritual being to start with and falls from grace when they sin. Here is their teaching of the fall of man starting with Adam in a nutshell.

The Fall of Man
An expression probably borrowed from the Apocryphal Book of Wisdom, to express the fact of the revolt of our first parents from God, and the consequent sin and misery in which they and all their posterity were involved.

There is a spiritual death in trespasses and sins, i.e., the death of the soul under the power of sin (Rom_8:6; Eph_2:1, Eph_2:3; Col_2:13).
(Easton's Bible Dictionary)

Man is not a spiritual being from his beginning and revolt, but a carnal fleshly being. The only way the soul will die is if the person dies, then their human spirit returns to God and the body deteriorates back into the earth.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death...
Eph 2:1  And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins...
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins...

These Scriptures all state what our condition is from birth, we are carnal, yes spiritual dead and blind to the truth. Until God draws us to Him and gives us the Holy Spirit, we will remain carnal/flesh/spiritually dead to the day that we physically die. That is how it is for the 'many' in the world, all are carnal "sold under sin" right from the day we are born.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15  For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:23  but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (Paul's converted mind), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Yes who shall deliver any of us from this body of death? We all know the answer to this.

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Jesus Christ indwelling is what gives us spiritual LIFE, it only is given to the 'few' for now the rest 'many' will not be given this life in Jesus Christ until they are resurrected back to physical life in the next age.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Amen Kat.

Yes, Amen Kat!

I just wanted to add a few more verses. It is common (thanks once again to the Church) for people to mistake "aionios life" as being a synonym for "immortality", and therefore something that can only be received in the next life. However, God's Word gives us the definition of "aionios life" and it also assures us that we can receive it now, in this life, as well as the next one:

John 17:3 And this IS life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.


1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This IS the true God, and aionios-life.

1 John 5:11-12 And this IS the testimony: God has given us aionios-life, and this (aionios) life is in his Son. He who has the Son has (aionios) life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have (aionios) life.


And having this "aionios life" (i.e. knowing the One True God, and Jesus Christ, His Son) within us is what causes us to overcome evil and live godly:

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present age

Contrast that statement with this one:

1 Timothy 5:6 The widow who lives for pleasure is dead although she is still alive.

Those of us with our spiritual thinking caps on understand this is speaking of being spiritually dead, and we also understand that this verse is not limited to actual "widows" but to ALL who "live for pleasure". This is what it means to have NO "aionios life" within us.


Furthermore, through the Apostle John's testimony we can understand what Christ meant when He prophesied of the day when He will say to the many who "call Him Lord", "Depart from Me... I never KNEW you!" He is telling them they have NO "aionios life" IN them:

1 John 3:14-17 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that NO murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him?

"Aionios Life" means to KNOW God and His Son. Anyone who does not possess "aionios life" IN them, does not KNOW God or His Son. And knowing God (i.e. having "aionios life" in us) also manifests the Love of God in us. No wonder Jesus said He is "the Life" and there is no other way but THROUGH Him, and no wonder Paul said that "aionios life" was a gift of God only received through Christ (Romans 6:23). How can one have "aionios life" and NOT KNOW CHRIST if knowing Him is the very definition of "life aionios"?


**Sorry, Kat, guess that was a little more than a few verses.. I gotta little carried away...  

Daywalker  

[dave]

I wished I had not put this in the post, " yet I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible where "spiritual death" is located and mentioned as spiritual death; I understand what it is, but well Ive been here before so Ill leave that." It has nothing to do with my query. In fact I will remove it.

[mharrell08]

I am sure it is, but my question would be, if it so obvious, why didn't Paul call it that?

He does, just further along in the passage. I'll quote starting from verse 12:

Rom 5:12-19  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Paul refers to Adam's actions as 'transgression', 'offense', 'one who sinned', & 'disobedience'.

Also, can you explain your point in a simple manner so I can understand? I'm just a little confused on what you are trying to say.



Thanks,

Marques

[dave]

Spiritual death?  Where does this idea come from?  I don't like ideas that are not in the Scriptures.  There is enough of that in the churches and religions of the world.

The Scriptures state that the spirit returns to God who gave it.  Where does the spirit die?

Physical bodies die.  To be carnally minded is death.  But where and when do spirits die, per the Scriptures?

I know that take it up with religion.

[daywalker]

Spiritual death?  Where does this idea come from?  I don't like ideas that are not in the Scriptures.  There is enough of that in the churches and religions of the world.

The Scriptures state that the spirit returns to God who gave it.  Where does the spirit die?

Physical bodies die.  To be carnally minded is death.  But where and when do spirits die, per the Scriptures?

Hey John,

I think you misunderstand the term "spiritual death" as I've never heard it described as someone's "spirit" dying, but rather a spiritual act of the carnal mind dying (or in other words: overcoming our fleshly desires). I can appreciate you being hesitant in using an extra-biblical term, though, as I usually am as well. That being said, I wanted to show that this term "spiritual death" is used by Ray in his teachings. Now, I'm all for discarding this term if you or someone can find a "better" way to explain these things:


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm


GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT

As a young man I used to think, horrors of horrors, God is going to throw people into a lake of fire which will be their SECOND death! It all seemed so frightful and final. Little did I know that we are all destined for some form of this same lake of fire/second death/judgment. Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.

It's all in Rom. 8:13:

"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).

But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:

The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.

The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.

We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.


I ask in all sincerity, if the term "spiritual death" is a term you think we should discard, then in what way would explain these verses? Thank you.

Daywalker 

[dave]

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

Thats how I am beginning to understand. It has only been lately that the term "spiritual death" has troubled me. I was reminded in the post about Adams mother, of what Ray said, that if the orthodox church/religion teaches it, it is probably not so. Its been a difficult trouble for me cause stopping that " orthodox church/religion" teaching is pretty ingrained.

to die shall you be dying. That is how I understand it.

[dave]

Well I suppose I just better lay off this one too!

[mikejody]

"Whatever is not of faith, is sin" (Romans 14:23). Adam sinned and brought death to all, Jesus obeyed unto death and brought life to all. Sometimes we want to make Scripture into something "deeper", something mysterious rather than the purely good news of what Jesus did for us on the cross and through His resurrection.

I want to get back to the Adams mother post, this was something I have been studying and I felt it out of place with the Adams mother post.


Rom 5:12  because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

I have always been told that this "one man" was/is adam. Here is where, for me anyway, I get to reasoning, the Bible does not say in Gen.3 that man/woman/adam sinned.

Now in Gen. 4:7 is the first time "sin" is used and it is in reference to Cain.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I am given to see that Adam is man(kind) Cain/adam/man(kind) commited sin.