Our role in a fallen world

[octoberose]

The news today centers around the the war of words between Chick Fil A and Amazon. Apparently Jeff Bazos of Amazon has made the largest single contribution in Washington state to pass same sex marriage legislation. Chick Fil A is under the gun from many, many sources because of it's defense of marriage between one man and a one woman. So, here's my question. What should our stand be in such a fallen world? Do I cancel my Amazon prime subscription? Do I buy more chicken sandwiches? Do we involve ourselves in this at all?
I know All is of God, but God expects us to be a light in a dark world. How do we do that when it comes to commerce? Did Ray comment on this? I keep thinking about the first century Christians who were under the gun (so to speak) to eat the  offerings to idols. Some ate, some did not. And I believe that rather than the Christians not doing business with the idol worshippers, the idol worshippers didn't want to do business with them. So, what do we do? This is going to become more and more of an issue as time goes on.  Ray reminded us that Jesus asked if He would find faith in this world when He returned.  And of course the answer is, not much, only a few who are the elect.  So, what do we do with this, if anything?

[Kat]

Let your conscience be your guide. One person may think it is important to support/not support something they believe is standing for righteousness/unrighteousness. So listen to the spirit indwelling and by that do what you think is the right thing and do not judge others by what they may do.

mercy, peace and love
Kat 

[ez2u]

yes Kat  pray and seek the Lords will in  everything.  Then do the best you can.

[John from Kentucky]

God created evil.  Isa 45:7  He made the mess.  He will clean it up.

Do not worry about anything.  Philippians 4:6  I don't sweat the big stuff.  I don't sweat the little stuff.  God controls everything.  Such understanding brings Peace.

[Gina]

That's a good starting point, Kat.

Hi Octoberose:

(I'm rather long winded but not verbose so bear with me.  Besides, there's a prize at the end.)

I saw your post today at work.  Actually Ray did speak of these things. 

I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). Ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations.  Jesus never, ever got involved in the operations of the Roman Government over the Jews. We are never taught to "march on Washington," etc. But we are told to COME OUT OF THE WORLD and be separate. "Let the DEAD bury the dead."
God be with you,
Ray

It's GOOD that you recognize sin.  But let's face it:  Mr. Amazon and Mr. Chick are ultimately in a political fight.  It's between those two ultimately.  So let them argue.  Who cares? 

However, for the sake of argument, let's suppose your husband worked for Amazon, okay?  Let's say a lot of people you know and love dearly work for Amazon.  Pretend they're all people with whom you share political views.  Now imagine they knew nothing of "Mr. Amazon's" own personal issues regarding gay marriage. 

But let's pretend you made up your mind and feel the right thing would be to boycott Amazon.  And, hypothetically speaking, you're going around trying to draw people away from Amazon.   

We're only hypothesizing so let's go all the way:  You and all your followers managed to throw Amazon into bankruptcy and ultimately out of business.  Ask yourselves: 

(1)  Are you comfortable with the fact that you've just managed to put all your friends and loved ones (with whom you all share political views) out of work because you didn't like one man's thoughts?

(2)  Did you manage to change that one man's political views re the gay marriage issue? 

(3)  Will he throw his arms around your necks and thank you for showing him the "light"? 

(4)  Will he thank you for putting all his employees out on the street and him in the poorhouse?

(5) Is "a person convinced against their will of the same opinion still"? 



Regarding the issue re eating meat offered to idols. 

In your own mind - I don't know how but you managed to equate patronizing Amazon with eating the meat offered to idols.  Let's be real:   I just bought some toothpaste from my local health food store and guess what?  I guarantee you someone at the top of that company holds views contrary to my own.  What do I do?  Do I go about finding out what their views are and then boycott that market? 

My feeling is, that Amazon guy--he doesn't MAKE the products that are sold on Amazon, he simply runs the company. 

Now let's pretend that you are not Christ's Ambassador and instead your home actually IS the world and so you can legally get involved in political issues, okay?   Boycotting Amazon because one person there holds a political view not to your liking would be like saying:  The entire world of believers should boycott Israel because someone in office there isn't exactly honest.  Should all Israel suffer because one person didn't know the meaning of "but I say to you, love your enemy"?    And let's face it, leaders are ultimately appointed by God, no matter whether they're carnal or Godly.

How about that government figure in that southern state (No.Carolina?) who cheated on his wife with that woman from South America?  Should all believes move out of the state and should outsiders stop vacationing in Nags Head?

( 1 Cor. 5:9-11 )  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not entirely with the fornicators of this WORLD, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must you needs go out of the world [in other words:  YOU'D NEED TO GET OUT OF THE WORLD ENTIRELY BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE ARE EVERYWHERE.].  But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.  For what have I to do with judging OUTSIDERS? Do you not judge those who are within the CHURCH?

I hope that was clear enough.   

[noeleena]

Hi,

Can we just say in many matters like this , just let the Boss sort it out .

Why take on whats not ours to meddle in. no matter what we may or not think about such matters its not our fight or war.

The battle is not for us to.... try.... & win. in so doing we will ....fail......

...noeleena...

[Shawn Fainn]

Listen to Kat's advice. Let the Lord's spirit guide you through your conscience. Personally, when Chick-fil-a was first attacked by the liberal/secular media, i spoke out in their defense. Now that many have come to their defense i no longer feel led to do so. Nor do i feel led to boycott any particular business. I may feel led to do/say something in the future, but it all depends on what God wills. It's when you start making it your own battle (to sate your own anger, for example) when it becomes wrong to continue to get involved in. We are ambassadors for Christ, so we stand for the truth. We may not be perfect, but remember the Lord knows our heart and our intentions.

[Extol]

Excellent words, Gina. It would be a pretty hopeless exercise to try and have nothing to do with anyone who believes/thinks/acts differently. We would have to be completely isolated, living alone and living off the land. Who among us is ready to do that? And as you point out, would it even make any difference?

I'm sure that among the bands I listen to, the sports teams I follow, the stores where I shop, the oil companies from whom I buy gas, etc., there are many who are pro-homosexuality, pro-abortion, adulterers, cheaters, murderers...I actually don't like cars--I went several years without one and I liked walking and taking trains and other "healthier" forms of transportation. But right now I live in the country and I must drive to a job so I can support my wife--which is a good thing to do. If I tried to be spiritual and avoided buying from the oil companies, then I wouldn't be supporting my family--and we know what Paul said about that. To me, boycotting things to try and be more spiritual is getting tangled up in the letter of the law, while forgetting the spirit.

Here's the passage that Gina posted (1 Cor. 5:9-13), from the MESSAGE:

I wrote you in my earlier letter that you shouldn't make yourselves at home among the sexually promiscuous. I didn't mean that you should have nothing at all to do with outsiders of that sort. Or with crooks, whether blue or white-collar. Or with spiritual phonies, for that matter. You'd have to leave the world entirely to do that! But I am saying that you shouldn't act as if everything is just fine when a friend who claims to be a Christian is promiscuous or crooked, is flip with God or rude to friends, gets drunk or becomes greedy and predatory. You can't just go along with this, treating it as acceptable behavior. I'm not responsible for what the outsiders do, but don't we have some responsibility for those within our community of believers? God decides on the outsiders, but we need to decide when our brothers and sisters are out of line and, if necessary, clean house.

[octoberose]

I think you all make some thoughtful points.
Regarding Ray's take on being an ambassador, the only thing about that I never have fully grasped is that an ambassador doesn't pay taxes to the country he is sent to and we pay them in abundance. We're also not immune from the consequences of breaking the law. (Though I don't know what the 'rights' of an ambassador were in the first century).
I guess the thing is that no matter what we do we act in faith, and we never deny Christ. I suppose I'm wrestling with how to claim Christ in this world, be in the world and not OF it.

[ez2u]

this is really a sane post  so refreshing  maybe Extol you could get a hybrid sometime.  i know they are costly  John once again you nail it!  love you few but good words

[Gina]

I think you all make some thoughtful points.
Regarding Ray's take on being an ambassador, the only thing about that I never have fully grasped is that an ambassador doesn't pay taxes to the country he is sent to and we pay them in abundance. We're also not immune from the consequences of breaking the law. (Though I don't know what the 'rights' of an ambassador were in the first century).
I guess the thing is that no matter what we do we act in faith, and we never deny Christ. I suppose I'm wrestling with how to claim Christ in this world, be in the world and not OF it.

Even He hung around the tax collectors and the drunks but it was to bring them out of the world, not to party with them and He most certainly would not have gotten drunk. 

Can you imagine Jesus so drunk like the drunks He had chosen to follow Him that He would also be slurring His words and couldn't walk STRAIGHT?  Stumbling around like some young fool?  The thought is preposterous and not befitting a King!  But the pharisees and keepers of the law had to accuse Him of being a drunkard and a glutton.  He was none of those things - which isn't to say He never ate or drank at all.  Obviously He did but not to the extent to which He was accused (remember, the pharisees and keepers of the law were all jealous of Him -- they were LIARS.)

Octoberose, consider that Jesus was sent into the world by the Father.  When He said, render to Caesar the things that are Caesars and to God the things that are Gods, He never broke the laws of God.   When it came time to pay the temple tax, He told Peter to go to the sea and pull up a fish and take the coin out of its mouth and pay the temple tax for BOTH of them (He and Peter).  Did Jesus have to pay the tax?  No, He didn't have to because the Son is free, but as He told Peter He paid them as to not cause offense. 

He never broke God's laws, not even when He healed on the Sabbath; He always did what pleased His Father.  He worked with His own hands as a carpenter and so of course He also had business dealings with people from all walks of life.  Did you know that the money He earned as a carpenter came from people who were sinners?  Did you know that the very people who supported His ministry were women and they too were sinners.

Jesus voluntarily came into this world -- the very one He made -- though He was not of it, and he did that knowing it was FILLED with sinners, for all have sinned, save one. 

Of course He ate and bought things from sinners.  Being in the world and not of it/ambassador, doesn't mean we break laws or separate ourselves from others to the extent that we become overly righteous much. 

We might buy from sinners because we have to; and we render to Caesar the things that are Caesars.  That's not the same thing as marrying or siding with the party of gay rights supporters.   My daughter is a gay rights supporter.  She's in a same sex relationship.  I love her.  I don't agree with her views; I don't even LIKE her views but I'll be darned if she ever came to me needing me when she's suffering from one of her panic attacks or needing money to buy food that I don't give her what she needs.  That's not the same thing as me holding up one of her protest signs or marching for her. 

You know that bible you're holding with the words hell in it that you get your spiritual manna from?  Well, that also came from a company of sinners. 

Jesus came to make our burden light and so often we think it's necessary to turn around and burden ourselves and in doing so we burden others.   (Acts 15:28-29)

Buying from Amazon isn't endorsing gay marriage. 

[octoberose]

Gina, why are you so mad at me?
This started because I was in the middle of deleting an Amazon account, and then stopped because it was just kind of absurd. The world is, as you point out, filled with sinners. I just was feeling uncomfortable with giving Jeff Bezos more money to add to his millions when he was giving it to organizations that are trying to tear down marriage.
And Gina, I fully expect you to give your daughter love and comfort however you need to give it as a mother, no matter what. Just as I give it to my son. I know this path and it's heartbreaking, but it is the path God has put us on. And, who better to be the mother of 'blind' children then a mother who see's and believes?
Maybe you can join me in praying for my son and I will join you in prayer for your daughter.

[Dave in Tenn]

Jos 5:13-15  When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you one of us or one of our enemies?"

He answered, "Neither one! I am here as the commander of the LORD'S army."

Immediately, Joshua bowed with his face touching the ground and worshiped. He asked, "Sir, what do you want to tell me?"

The commander of the LORD'S army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals because this place where you are standing is holy." So Joshua did as he was told.


As best I can, in this politics and media saturated world, with at least some of my prejudices still lingering, I try not to choose sides in other people's debates.  Just because there appear to be two sides to an argument does not mean that one of them is right.  I do my best not to walk in the middle, but to find a better truth than is presented and not let pundits, bloggers, or CEO's have too much access to my soul.

There is none righteous...no, not one.  Not me either.  But I don't think we get the 'test' before we've even learned the lesson. 

I don't know if this is a 'fallen world'.  In many measurable respects, it's been far worse.  It's the one we've got.  It's not by accident or a failure of God.  Faith isn't for everybody.

That maybe didn't help you a bit, but maybe it does.     

[lilitalienboi16]

God created evil.  Isa 45:7  He made the mess.  He will clean it up.

Do not worry about anything.  Philippians 4:6  I don't sweat the big stuff.  I don't sweat the little stuff.  God controls everything.  Such understanding brings Peace.

Amen my friend, Amen! God is fully in control, we need to trust Him.

Give to Caesar that which is Caesor's and give to God that which is God's!

No man can belong to two kingdoms, you need to decide, shall you take part in the political affairs of the kingdoms of this world, or take part in the Kingdom of our Lord?

Any kingdom divide amongst itself shall fall.

Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

God bless

Alex

[Gina]

Amen to that Alex.

Hey Octoberose, I'm not mad at you at all.  I was simply trying to free you and some others up from the burden of having to give the time of day to either of those men, because I see what Mr. Amazon's doing for exactly what it is:  an opportunity to get people's attention (ALL EYES ON AMAZON!).  People were fine one day before they knew anything of his views, and now all of a sudden those same people's world's are shaken up -- over what?  He gets people like you and me all hot under the collar and then when we speak up to him, he and his buddies turn around and call us bigots and homophobes; when the true definition of a homophobe is someone who panders to the G&L community for profits.  Not saying that's Mr. Amazon. 

Ray quoted Jesus best when he applied this scripture to involvement in the political farce (and I do mean farce!):  Let the dead bury the dead.  Let dead people take care of dead matters.

Thank you for praying for my daughter.  I have also been praying for you and your husband AND your son.  She is my youngest of two daughters.  She is 21.  She's interning in San Francisco and living with her "wife".  I didn't raise her; she was adopted (in an open adoption and has known of me since day 1) out of the hospital three days after I delivered her to a wonderful Catholic couple, who I will be forever grateful to because they have always loved her like she is their very own -- and in reality, she is--we're all connected when you stop to think about it.

God bless you, Octoberose.