judgement or judgmental?

[gregorydc]

Hello family,
  I was reading a bunch of the newer topics here and a thought came to me, how do we know that these trials and tribulations we go through are judgements on us from God?  Are these not the same troubles that everyone else goes through on this earth?  What makes us sure that we are being judged, and not being egotistical in our difference of belief from other christians?  I do hope that what we believe is true and right, that we are being judged, because I don't want to go through this life again, especially knowing that it will be worse than it is now. Has Ray spoken of this anywhere,  or can anyone offer scripture to help?
Greg

[John from Kentucky]

...What?  Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?  In all this Job did not sin with his lips.  Job 2:10

[Kat]

Hi Greg,

Well why do we have trials and tribulation? Isn't it to reveal the carnal self in all of us? If we are God's chosen then He will reveal our sin that it may be overcome and that is the process, revealing overcoming. By the Spirit indwelling we are judging ourselves, we are striving to do better, we are beginning to be shaped into His image.

When we have sin (whatever it may be), God's Spirit will reveal it to us, then He causes us to hate it (does the world really hate sin?). The process moves along, from hating it so much, to eventually over time removing/overcoming whatever it is.

So these trials are what God specially prepares for His chosen, each person has their own circumstances designed for them, to create in them whatever God wants them to be. That is how God works through Christ in us to overcome and to prepare us for the kingdom.

http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#trial -------------------

Not everything in the Bible is "easy" to understand. It takes God's spirit and it take wisdom. God supplies both.

God does send custom made trials to all of us. He does NOT, however, do the "trying" in these trials.

A trial is where evidence is presented to determine one's guilt or innocence. God is far above us carnal matters. God already knows IN ADVANCE what we will or will not do under our trials.

Therefore, He does not determine from the evidence whether we passed or failed the trial; whether we are guilt or innocent. The trial is for OUR benefit, not HIS!

http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#afraid -----------------

I don't have "doubts about God" nor do I question how He is running His Creation. That doesn't mean that I completely understand everything, however.

There are just so many basic problems and trials that frustrate most people: Health, social, financial, mental and emotional, and spiritual. Everything else comes under one of those categories. Few people suffer from all of these at the same time--some, however, do. These problems humble us.  Humility is the first step in coming to God. One cannot MAKE himself humble, however. And it does no good to PRETEND to be humble. God has ways of accomplishing this. Just BEING poor, sick, rejected and emotionally unstable, does not prove one is humble. It is a thing of the heart and the spirit.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#temptation -------------

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?

After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."

Then James comes along and says

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MAN." (James 1:13).

And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to

"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!

What is going on here?

Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.

First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."

"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food,  and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).

"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).

"...when YOU FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).

"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).

From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.

And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,

Ray

[loretta]

I don't want to go through this life again, especially knowing that it will be worse than it is now.

Good thoughts Gregory.

Tks for sharing Kat.  Ray couldn't be more right.  Growing up I was Miss Perfect, till I got married.  Then out of the abundance of the heart the mouth spewed venom, which shocked me as well!  It took a difficult marriage to reveal what was deeply imbeded and God knew what it would take to purge it all out.  The easiest way out would have been to deliver myself out of this evil, but that would not have accomplished what God had desired.  Yea, He hath delivereth me out of evil, but in His own time, as I slowly and painfully learnt my lessons. 

[microlink]

It is not that uncommon for the elect to have similar thoughts on occasion as you mention.  We may ask is God really working with me? How am I different from the ones who are not the chosen?

I was reading a bunch of the newer topics here and a thought came to me, how do we know that these trials and tribulations we go through are judgements on us from God?  Are these not the same troubles that everyone else goes through on this earth?  What makes us sure that we are being judged, and not being egotistical in our difference of belief from other christians?  I do hope that what we believe is true and right, that we are being judged, because I don't want to go through this life again, especially knowing that it will be worse than it is now. Has Ray spoken of this anywhere,  or can anyone offer scripture to help?
Greg

As Kat has pointed out regarding Rays comments in :

http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#afraid -----------------

I don't have "doubts about God" nor do I question how He is running His Creation. That doesn't mean that I completely understand everything, however.

There are just so many basic problems and trials that frustrate most people: Health, social, financial, mental and emotional, and spiritual. Everything else comes under one of those categories. Few people suffer from all of these at the same time--some, however, do. These problems humble us.  Humility is the first step in coming to God. One cannot MAKE himself humble, however. And it does no good to PRETEND to be humble. God has ways of accomplishing this. Just BEING poor, sick, rejected and emotionally unstable, does not prove one is humble. It is a thing of the heart and the spirit.

Living a life in the flesh is fraught with difficulties for the majority of mankind.  All die.

The conversion process is a road with many obstacles and persecutions for a follower of Christ.

Rom_5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom_8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom_12:12  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
2Co_1:4  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Ti_3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


Once the truth of God's Word has been made known to a person by God, he or she is on the road to the Kingdom. Most of those who are on this forum have been recipients of the truth and have an understanding of Holy Scripture and that only happens if God is involved in our lives. One of the very elect.

It is up to us individually to yield to His will in humility. How does one know if they are converted and are a true follower of Christ? this is a profound question that you ask! It only by the indwelling of the Holy spirit that we are in Him and He in us. No on else knows if we are truly converted, but God knows, and that is what is important. Just because someone says they are a Christian means very little.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

[Ian 155]

yep i hear you Greg

I have pondered on these things a while now It does kinda leave one out in the cold if these judgements are due to "defects" within

the NT letters are full of advice or do's and dont's - we believe God is all in all and whatever path we take this is preordained that is unless there are 2 (or more) chosen possible outcomes.[do we take the Holy spirits advice and use it ] or does God enable us to be obedient...Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Id like to think I am chosen however the giant scripture that keeps reoccurring is "Why do you call me Lord Lord and do not the things I say" somehow this is a spanner in my understanding I struggle to listen and do what my wife asks nevermind what Jesus says for me to do - this scripture tells me I gotta do right,its up to me to do

We are all stubborn and stiff necked maybe time to loosen up a bit

the truth is,

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out

Ian

[dodrill]

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. - John 1:4

I think about this often as Christ didn't come to save the righteous - but those in need of a savior - yes we all are sinners falling short of good judgement or better decision making? How would you feel if you had to render a judgement for mankind? To be so privileged to walk with men who had this connection - what I have now is my heart and some education - and God willing His Spirit - all I see is myself  - guilty - yet willing to learn

[microlink]

Hi JFK,

One major point.  You say, "It is up to us individually to yield to His will in humility".  Not quite so.
Everything is dependent on God.  He alone is Sovereign.  It is God Who makes, guides, leads, directs (whatever verb you want to use) us to yield to His will.
If God is waiting on us to yield to His will, then that means we are in charge, not God.
Nothing happens without God's say so.  God is responsible for everything.  The Scriptures tell us that even a little bird does not die unless the Father says so.

Yes I see the point you are making and I agree. Thank you!

Php_2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

[G. Driggs]

Ive thought a lot about this over the years and you've gotten lots of great answers, I just wanna add a little bit as it is a great discussion.   

Many experience evil, but only a few are judged, chastened, corrected and overcome in this age. You wont even know its happening till you look behind you and see how far you've come. Maybe we don't know till near the end, kinda like Paul when he said he had finished the race and there was a crown waiting for him. But like Paul you gotta keep fighting, working out your own salvation "with fear and trembling", cause you don't know.

I thought this quote from Ray was kinda relevant.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html


All these things take a lifetime.  We're going to live "the seals."  A third part of the man died... that's a third part of the man in us that is going to die, a third part of the carnality.  God works in increments, He wipes out some of the trees and then He burns some of the grass... what is the trees and the grass?  These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues, they are all things that must happen in our lives.

You say, 'Well I don't remember any trees being burned down.'  First of all, you won't even know some of it is happening until it's over.  Some of you will remember, I have this in my Lake of Fire Series: "And I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day and I heard a voice BEHIND me as the voice of a trumpet and I turned to see the voice that spoke to me and being turned I saw..."  You won't see some of these things until they are behind you.  You're going to have to look behind you to see where you came from, to see where God has been taking you.  Some of us wouldn't want to live tomorrow if we knew what was coming, you know.  Be thankful that you don't know everything that's coming.  Be thankful that you only have to take one day at a time.  You don't want to know what every day has to hold.  Take it one day at a time as God presents it to you.

And there will come a time, when you can look behind you, as I can, and see where God's been taking you all these years.  You'll see it plain as day. I could sit here for hours and tell you all about it.  I can tell you about trees and grass and mountains coming down, I know what it means.  It's all one, all this stuff.  Are you getting it?  It's all one thing.  Whether you believe on Christ or enter the door of Christ or call upon the name of Christ or accept His grace through the faith of Christ, it's all one thing.  It's all Christ coming to you, living His life in you!

You notice how many things in Revelation are described as "for a times, time and half a time" - "for a year, years, and half a year" - "for a season, seasons, and half a season" - "for 42 months" - "for 1260 days."  How much is 3½ years, 3½ seasons, 1260 days and 42 months?  How much is that?  It's all the same!  It's a symbol of something spiritual.  I think I can prove, although it's not as easy as you might think, that Christ's ministry lasted 3½ years.  You know how long that is?  42 months - 1260 days...  Why do we have these, why are they in there?  Why is that over and over in there?  Because Christ lived in the flesh in his ministry for 1260 days, 42 months, 3½ years.  He's going to live that ministry in us!

And that's why we live these things that take 42 months, 1260 days and 3½ years. And that 3½ years will be His ministry.  Maybe it will take 4½ years to live His ministry in us, maybe it will take 40½ years... it's a symbol, however long it takes.  And it's going to go through this generation of believers and then this one, then this one and on and on because Jesus Christ is, was and will be.  He's not in the past and coming again in the future, He's here now!  And He was here before and He'll be there in the future, He is, was and will be!

Well, I'll end with that
----------------------------------------------------

Is God producing good fruit from you with His pruning? Is the world repenting of it's sins at the moment?

2Co_7:10  Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

[se7en]

2Co_7:10  Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

I loved that you posted that Driggs. Outstanding!

And why does Godly sorrow bring repentance that leads to salvation with no regret?

Because.....

Eph 1:11-12  In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Because we have been given eyes to see and ears to hear and understand... It's ALL of Him.

Absolutely beautiful!!!!!

[Rene]

Hello family,
  I was reading a bunch of the newer topics here and a thought came to me, how do we know that these trials and tribulations we go through are judgements on us from God?  Are these not the same troubles that everyone else goes through on this earth?  What makes us sure that we are being judged, and not being egotistical in our difference of belief from other christians?  I do hope that what we believe is true and right, that we are being judged, because I don't want to go through this life again, especially knowing that it will be worse than it is now. Has Ray spoken of this anywhere,  or can anyone offer scripture to help?
Greg

Hi Greg,

I don't think that any of us are so sure that we are one of God's Elect, but we do have hope!  There is much more to being an Elect than just knowing these truths. 

In Matt. 13:19-23 Jesus explains the Parable of the Sower and reveals that there are those who will hear these truths but due to a lack of being rooted, or the trials and anxieties of life, they will not endure:

18 "Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.[a] 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

The judgments upon God's Elect are designed to make them SPIRITUALLY STRONG in this age.  The trials and tribulations we go through are a necessary part of this transformation.  Here is a statement Ray made in the Lake of Fire Part III:

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

"Now I hope that none will be offended at my next few statements, but if so, so be it. Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!" 

You see, there is a lot happening to those who are being prepared in this age.  It is a "spiritual" conversion of the heart.  One thing for sure, if you are one of the Elect, you will be in the 1st resurrection.  It's a done deal!

John 6:39 - "And, this, is the will of Him that sent me, That, of all that which He hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day".

René

[loretta]

Great posts everyone. 

Guess the difference is that the called think that they're chosen and the chosen know that they're called. It's what keeps us humble, not knowing for sure if we're chosen, and is reflected in how we respond to trials in life.