Syria

[theophilus]

Hello everyone,

Matthew 5:44 But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU.

Luke 6:27-28: "But I tell everyone who is listening: Love your enemies. Be kind to those who hate you. 28 Bless those who curse you. PRAY FOR THOSE WHO INSULT YOU."

Given the above two verses and the verses about the elect praying for men in authority, I think that we are to pray for a very small SUBSET OF THE WORLD on TWO occasions.

One is to pray for men of authority so that the elect can live in peace (no ongoing persecution), and once persecution starts, one is to pray SPECIFICALLY for those who are persecuting us.

One thing I'm not very clear about is what we should be praying about on behalf of those persecuting us. Should we pray for them to stop their persecution, their conversion or to stop God's wrath from falling on them? It seems to me that our prayer is to stop God's wrath to fall upon them. (Genesis 12.3: "whoever curses you I will curse.")

What do you guys think?

[Nathan]

One thing I'm not very clear about is what we should be praying about on behalf of those persecuting us. Should we pray for them to stop their persecution, their conversion or to stop God's wrath from falling on them? It seems to me that our prayer is to stop God's wrath to fall upon them. (Genesis 12.3: "whoever curses you I will curse.")

What do you guys think?

Father forgive me my sins as I forgive those that sin against me.

[Kat]

One thing I'm not very clear about is what we should be praying about on behalf of those persecuting us. Should we pray for them to stop their persecution, their conversion or to stop God's wrath from falling on them? It seems to me that our prayer is to stop God's wrath to fall upon them. (Genesis 12.3: "whoever curses you I will curse.")

What do you guys think?

Hi theophilus,

Your questions have made me think on these things and now I look on them in a some what different way. When we are persecuted there is a reason for it, a lesson, to humble us or something... the person afflicting the suffering would be a vessel of dishonor, so that is part the evil experience for us and them. God alone determines when one is to receive conversion and only a very few in this age, so it may be in the next age under the wrath of God that our persecuter may be saved or if it turns out to be in this age and so be it. But I personally do not pray for God to save somebody now and His correction/judgment/wrath whenever it is will be exactly as a person needs.

I would think that we could pray for God to help us understand the lesson of the persecution and pray that He would also help the person persecuting us to see the error of their way. Well that's how I'm thinking about this right now anyway.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[theophilus]

Thank you Nathan and Kat for your input. God bless you both.

[Dave in Tenn]

As an example, God raised up kings to execute judgement on His people, then executed judgement on the kings he raised up.  Jesus is Lord.  Even God's enemies are HIS.  One day He will have put all His enemies under His feet, starting with the carnal mind of those He has been choosing "now".

[Ricky]

Kat wins again.

[darren]

my bad Rene, elect.

[darren]

Why pray at all. I mean whatever happens in Syria or any country Its Gods Will and it will be done no matter how hard and ernest we pray. God knows the end before the begining. God does not change His mind. So as i stated before it can not hurt for mankind to pray for the world, the people in it or peace. At the end of the day what does it matter, to pray or not to pray, this is the question i ask of thee.

[Kat]

Why pray at all. I mean whatever happens in Syria or any country Its Gods Will and it will be done no matter how hard and ernest we pray. God knows the end before the begining. God does not change His mind. So as i stated before it can not hurt for mankind to pray for the world, the people in it or peace. At the end of the day what does it matter, to pray or not to pray, this is the question i ask of thee.

Hi Darren, I think prayer is always beneficial for us, it is our conscience intent to communicate with God. If anything is of concern then we should reach out to God and speak of it, He will answer. He won't change His plans, but He can comfort our worries, and He can help us to understand better. It is an attitude of trusting in Him, to turn to God in prayer with everything, to call upon "Abba, Father."

Psa 62:8  Trust in Him at all times, you people;
       Pour out your heart before Him;
       God is a refuge for us.Selah

Psa 73:28  But it is good for me to draw near to God;
       I have put my trust in the Lord GOD,
       That I may declare all Your works.

Rom 8:15  For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Pro 15:8  The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
       But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

Eph 6:18  praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

Jer 29:13  And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Heb 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Php 4:6  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;

Isa 65:24  "It shall come to pass
       That before they call, I will answer;
       And while they are still speaking, I will hear.

1Th 5:16  Rejoice always,
v. 17  pray without ceasing,
v. 18  in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Just a few verses of encouragement 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[onelovedread]

As an example, God raised up kings to execute judgement on His people, then executed judgement on the kings he raised up.  Jesus is Lord.  Even God's enemies are HIS.  One day He will have put all His enemies under His feet, starting with the carnal mind of those He has been choosing "now".

Thanks for that, Dave. As you recently posted, we seem to have come some way in our threads.
I was researching the topic "wars" and came upon this old thread "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi Killed in Iraq". I was blown away by the postings that argued political and religious viewpoints and came away feeling confused. A considerable amount of latitude was given in that discussion.

He won't change His plans, but He can comfort our worries, and He can help us to understand better. It is an attitude of trusting in Him, to turn to God in prayer with everything, to call upon "Abba, Father.

Kat, thank you for your comment which encourages me.

[theophilus]

Heb 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Php 4:6  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;

It doesn't make sense to me to pray as much as Paul exhorts us to and to make our requests known to God if He is not gonna answer NOT EVEN ONE OF THEM!

The Lord God has already decided what must happen. In my opinion, God has decided our needs, problems, sicknesses. These are one side of the coin. The other side of the coin, which God has also decided beforehand, is our prayers for these needs, problems and sicknesses and His answer to our prayers or His lack of answer.

He has decided beforehand which of our requests He is to grant. But I do not believe that He will not answer ANY of our requests. He has also determined, IMO, whether we should pray or not. If we find ourselves praying for anything, God determined that. If we find ourselves not praying, He has also determined that.

I think it's more profitable to pray than not to pray, like Kat was saying. I think it's about developing a dependence and trust in our Heavenly Father.

As a personal testimony, God healed me of hepatitis when I was a teenager. So, I believe that God answers prayer when it's in accordance with what must be. Thank God that the healing of hepatitis was in accordance with what had to be. I wasn't privy to this knowledge, but God was.

Roger.

[John from Kentucky]

On the contrary, God answers every prayer made to Him.

Every one of my prayers is answered by God, once I learned how to pray.

Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer.  But the Father said NO.   

Jesus received an answer to His prayer and that answer was NO.  Jesus didn't go to a pity party or blame God or complain that it just wasn't fair that He had to suffer since He had done no wrong.

Instead, Jesus prayed that the Father's will be done.

I learned from Jesus how to pray.  I only pray the same prayer over and over again.  Your (the Father's) will be done.  I have had a 100% success rate for all my prayers once I got the message.

[darren]

My point excactly J.F.K. God;s Will is gonna be done. We humans pray for many, many differents things. As you rightly spoken God will answere it just might not be what you would expect the out come to be. unless we understand that we must only pray that His Will is done.

[cjwood]

"As a personal testimony, God healed me of hepatitis when I was a teenager. So, I believe that God answers prayer when it's in accordance with what must be. Thank God that the healing of hepatitis was in accordance with what had to be. I wasn't privy to this knowledge, but God was."


roger's statement of faith above, is evidence that "what must be" and "what had to be" are most surely God's will being done.  and roger admits he wasn't privy to the knowledge that his hepatitis would be gone.  healed.  i just see this as him praying in faith.  by the faith God graced him with.  he thanks God because God WAS privy to the knowledge that the hepatitis would be healed.  we are called to faithful prayer.  even Jesus Christ first mentioned in prayer to His Father, may the cup be removed, before He was to be taken as a prisoner.  and He knew that He was going to die on the cross, with much physical suffering and pain. before He asked His Father to remove the cup of suffering from the hard physical pain his physical human body was going to endure before He got to that cross.  our Saviour knew, yet He still asked for relief from suffering such physical pain.

our Father Creator wants His children to talk to Him in conversation.  that's what good and loving parents do.  and i guarantee, parents desire to hear more from their children that just the same repetitious spew.  details, they like details, whether they admit it or not.  good and loving parents with children do that.   

done.
claudia

[darren]

Greetings Kat, Psa 73:28  But it is good for me to draw near to God;
       I have put my trust in the Lord GOD,
       That I may declare all Your works.
I take it that first God drags us to Him. We have no say so in this matter. Unless were talking already being dragged to The Lord, then I totally understand Psa 73:28  Kat, here is your word to me: Darren, I think prayer is always beneficial for us, it is our conscience intent to communicate with God. If anything is of concern then we should reach out to God and speak of it, He will answer. He won't change His plans, but He can comfort our worries, and He can help us to understand better. It is an attitude of trusting in Him, to turn to God in prayer with everything, to call upon "Abba, Father."Lord God. On this point I totally agree. Great point. Thanks.                                                                                                                                                                                           To Ricky, Kat wins again.  Really. There is no winners or losers at B.T. Were here to gather knowledge, wisdom and information and try to learn from the the B.T family as best as we can. This is how we grow. So Kat wins again. How is that helpfull. Now if I misunderstood your comment I'm sorry my bad

[Oatmeal]

Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer.  But the Father said NO.   

I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross.  I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?

Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".

Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn't it?), that the Father said YES to his request?

Oatmeal

[Craig]

So does it make more sense for His Father to answer yes to the prayer to not die in the garden, and then turn around and let's Him suffer and die a horribly painful death on the cross??

Craig

[Kat]

Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer.  But the Father said NO.   

I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross.  I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?

Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".

Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn't it?), that the Father said YES to his request?

Oatmeal

Hi Oatmeal, what that prayer Jesus prayed says to me is that though the plan is absolutely determined, but by the Father. Jesus no doubt understands the will and general direction the Father is going very well, but maybe not all the future details. He did say He did not know the day and hour of His return to earth.

Mark 13:32  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I do not believe Jesus was asking not to die then or later, He knew that all human life depended on that. But He was a physical man and certainly had seen a crucifixion at some point, maybe His request was to "let this cup pass" or that particular way of dying. That it was possible that the Father had already determined He would die another way and that was the reason He asked. But we know He ended the prayer with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." He was willing to do whatever He had to, and He did!

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

We need to understand that there are not two Gods: 1) a Father God and 2) a Jesus God. 

God is One the Scriptures teach us.  Jesus told us "I and Father are One."  Jesus told the Apostles that if they saw Him (Jesus) then they saw the Father.  But as Paul said, "not many know this."

The Father and Jesus are two sides of the same coin.

Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God.  They are complementary to one another.  You cannot have One without the Other.  Jesus could not be without His Father, but many do not realize that you could not have a Father without a Son.

Jesus was God in a physical, human form.  It makes sense to me that any human in His right mind would not want to suffer as Jesus did.

So Jesus asked that the cup of suffering be removed.  The Scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus made that request.  But the answer to that prayer was NO.

What many also don't know is that the Father suffered the same as Jesus.  The Father was not off somewhere and could not be disturbed.  The Father experienced all the pain and suffering through His visible image, which was, and is, and will be---Jesus.

[Kat]

God is One the Scriptures teach us.  Jesus told us "I and Father are One."  Jesus told the Apostles that if they saw Him (Jesus) then they saw the Father.  But as Paul said, "not many know this."

Okay John, I do know that the Father and Son are One and we too will be One with them some day.

John 17:11  Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

John 17:22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

One in Spirit and mind to know and do the will of the Father perfectly. But I do not believe that this mean we no longer have our personality, that it will disappear into God or something... I think that is one of the reason there is all this variety of life situations. 

The Father and Jesus are two sides of the same coin.

Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God.  They are complementary to one another.  You cannot have One without the Other.  Jesus could not be without His Father, but many do not realize that you could not have a Father without a Son.

God received the title "Father" when He produced a Son, Jesus came into existence when He came forth from God.

John 8:42  Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

John 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

Yes the Son is the perfect image of the Father, but He is not the Father, but I would say more like an extension of the Father. Jesus only is what the Father wants Him to be, God of this creation.

Here is where Ray spoke of this. This first one is from the 06 conference 'THE FATHER'S WILL?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html -------

John 10:30  I and the Father are one!

They're not the same person, but 'one,' there's a difference. But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
v
So He is God, but He is not His own Father. Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father; Luke 10:22; John 6:46;

Matt 11:27, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Nobody knew anything about God the Father, until Jesus Christ revealed Him. The only God that anybody knew was Jesus Christ.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11344.msg98233.html#new -------

Your question may be "short," but it is not specific.  I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."

You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning?  You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed."  Which is your question?  Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning.  See the difference?  We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.

The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex:  John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning.  One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language.  God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.

God means "placer or disposer."  God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE."  God the PlacER was never placED

So:  "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ.  Hope this helps clear up your discussion.

God be with you,
Ray