Mark10;18

[Ricky]

Jesus said no one is good except God. Was He including Himself in this verse. How could He not include Himself, unless He is God. Any thoughts on this.    Ricky

[John from Kentucky]

Of course Jesus is God, but the guy He was talking to did not know that.

Proof Jesus is God:

...the Word was God. John 1:1

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,...  John 1:14

Thomas called Jesus, My Lord and my God.  John20:28  The last Scripture has a three fold witness.  The Apostle Thomas said it, the Apostle John wrote it down as Scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus did not contradict Thomas or disagree with him.

[indianabob]

John from Kentucky,

That explanation sounds right so far.
But, does that alone prove that Jesus, the man, was also the God of the O. T.??
Yes we presume that the God of the O. T. was the "word" or logos of God the Father and yet we are told that Father God or the word (logos) of God manifested itself in many forms in the O. T. to carry out Father God's work and to inspire men to carry out the work of the Father.

We think that we know that Jesus had to grow from a babe, to a teen, to a man in order to do the work of the Father. Did that babe, that boy or that man know everything that the "god" of the O. T. knew and experienced? Did Jesus the man hold that memory, that knowledge in his human mind while he lived as a human man?

There seems to be quite a bit of unanswered questions here and we are like the Bereans who seek witness for every doctrine. Isn't that as it should be??

Please explain further, thanks, Indiana Bob

[John from Kentucky]

John from Kentucky,

That explanation sounds right so far.
But, does that alone prove that Jesus, the man, was also the God of the O. T.??
Yes we presume that the God of the O. T. was the "word" or logos of God the Father and yet we are told that Father God or the word (logos) of God manifested itself in many forms in the O. T. to carry out Father God's work and to inspire men to carry out the work of the Father.

We think that we know that Jesus had to grow from a babe, to a teen, to a man in order to do the work of the Father. Did that babe, that boy or that man know everything that the "god" of the O. T. knew and experienced? Did Jesus the man hold that memory, that knowledge in his human mind while he lived as a human man?

There seems to be quite a bit of unanswered questions here and we are like the Bereans who seek witness for every doctrine. Isn't that as it should be??

Please explain further, thanks, Indiana Bob

Hi I-Bob,

I have some family visiting for the weekend so I don't have a lot of time since I'm on my way out of the office.

So this will be a quick response.

Jesus told us no one has seen the Father or heard His voice.  Therefore, since the God of the Old Testament was seen and heard many times, then that God was not the Father.  By process of elimination, He must be He Who we know as the Word or Jesus.  Also, Paul stated that the Rock, Who followed the Israelites, was Christ.

Regarding your second inquiry, in the New Testament we are told that Jesus emptied Himself from God to be human.  In so doing, all that made Him God did not carryover to His life as a human.  It was the Father in Him Who did the works.

Take care Bob.

John

[Kat]

That explanation sounds right so far.
But, does that alone prove that Jesus, the man, was also the God of the O. T.??

Hi Bob, here are a few Scripture in Daniel that might help show exactly who the Son is. This first verse is where Daniel gives king Nebuchadnezzar the interpretation of his dream about the great statue that represented all the kingdoms of the world.

Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Notice that the One who was to come was "the God of heaven." Now look at more Scripture in Daniel and this time Daniel has a dream and in it he sees the God of the heavens and he explains what he saw so we know who it is.

Dan 7:9  "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;
v. 10  A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.

The is God of the OT now as you go down a few verses in the same passage you can see exactly who Daniel is speaking of here and I believe it is who he was referring to all along.

Dan 7:13  "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
v. 14  Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

This to me clearly show that the God of the OT is also a man and the One who literally became "the Son of Man." But there is another place in Daniel as well that speaks of "the Son of God," when He was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego inside the burning fiery furnace.

Dan 3:25  "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

There is another Scripture in Isaiah that people have a problem with, because it refers to the "Son" also as the Father. But actually doesn't this verify exactly who is being spoke of and clarifies that Jesus, the Son was God of the OT.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This should also explain why He said "he who has seen Me has seen the Father," They are ONE, as in connected and not 2 separate beings.

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

It was the Spirit of the Father in Jesus without measure (John 3:34) by which He could claim to be the Father, but He knew full well that the Father was more then Himself and therefore said, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) and "I do not speak on My own authority."

And another important Scripture we have was from Jesus Himself who stated plainly He was from the OT and who else could He have been other than God?

John 8:58  Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

We also know the God of the OT referred to Himself as "I AM." Coincidence? I don't think so.

Exo 3:14  And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

We think that we know that Jesus had to grow from a babe, to a teen, to a man in order to do the work of the Father. Did that babe, that boy or that man know everything that the "god" of the O. T. knew and experienced? Did Jesus the man hold that memory, that knowledge in his human mind while he lived as a human man?

True He did empty Himself of some of His glory/dignity or elevation as spirit, so to become human and die, and that is why He prayed for that glory to be returned... not that He didn't think it would, it was most likely said for the disciples benefit.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 

But it never says He was emptied of anything more than that glory. To me it is clear that He DID know and hold the memory of God... that was a critical part of who He was, why/how take that away? I mean how could He have known and done the things He did without that knowledge? He knew who He was, the great "I AM!"

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

This should also explain why He said "he who has seen Me has seen the Father," They are ONE, as in connected and not 2 separate beings.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

See now Kat, this is where things always got fuzzy for me.

If The Father and Jesus are not two separate beings, which I understand the argument for why they are not, how then can the Father be greater than the Son? How can Christ be created, the firstborn, while the Father was never created? The Father has no beginning but Christ does. How are these two, rather glaring differences, reconciled in one being?

Kindly,
Alex

[Kat]

Well Alex, maybe the difference is we try and look at what They are the same way we see the human father and son to be... a human son is born of a father and becomes a separate being. The way I now understand the heavenly Father and Son to be is not exactly the same as the human is, but their using the term Father and Son is still quite fitting, it shows us the many qualities of that relationship that is like ours.

John 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

The Son most certainly "came forth from God" at a certain point in time, but I do not believe that means they are disconnected and separated. He is the direct voice and image of the Father created more like an extend from Himself, not to come apart from Him though and I don't see how it's that hard to think that the Father could bring this about from Himself and the Son aspect of Himself was not eternal. That's how the Father was working and Jesus has been working, the Father does all the work "through Him" (Col 1:16) or that part of Himself, because He is "in Jesus" (John 14:10), they/our/we are one.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

I guess it's like a direct internal thing, because there is no detachment between them. That's how Jesus said when you hear Him speaking you hear the Father, the Father is doing it all "through" Jesus.

John 14:24  He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Doesn't this seem like a foreshadow of how we are in Christ and Christ is in us and the Spirit in us brings to our understanding who Christ is.

John 15:26  "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 17:23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

John 17:26  And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

2Peter 1:3  as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
v. 4  by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Jesus was speaking to one not His disciple.  Never without a parable did He speak to them.  He knew very well Who He was. 

1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:3  Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
1Sa 2:4  The bows of the mighty men are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength.
1Sa 2:5  They that were full have hired out themselves for bread; and they that were hungry ceased: so that the barren hath born seven; and she that hath many children is waxed feeble.
1Sa 2:6  The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
1Sa 2:7  The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
1Sa 2:8  He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
1Sa 2:9  He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.


Psa 86:5  For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Keep reading in that chapter and see what Jesus said to His disciples.

[lilitalienboi16]

Well Alex, maybe the difference is we try and look at what They are the same way we see the human father and son to be... a human son is born of a father and becomes a separate being. The way I now understand the heavenly Father and Son to be is not exactly the same as the human is, but their using the term Father and Son is still quite fitting, it shows us the many qualities of that relationship that is like ours.

John 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

The Son most certainly "came forth from God" at a certain point in time, but I do not believe that means they are disconnected and separated. He is the direct voice and image of the Father created more like an extend from Himself, not to come apart from Him though and I don't see how it's that hard to think that the Father could bring this about from Himself and the Son aspect of Himself was not eternal. That's how the Father was working and Jesus has been working, the Father does all the work "through Him" (Col 1:16) or that part of Himself, because He is "in Jesus" (John 14:10), they/our/we are one.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

I guess it's like a direct internal thing, because there is no detachment between them. That's how Jesus said when you hear Him speaking you hear the Father, the Father is doing it all "through" Jesus.

John 14:24  He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Doesn't this seem like a foreshadow of how we are in Christ and Christ is in us and the Spirit in us brings to our understanding who Christ is.

John 15:26  "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 17:23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

John 17:26  And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

2Peter 1:3  as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
v. 4  by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

So is there a consensus on the forums as to this matter? It appears to me that Dave, you are in agreement with Kat based on your response? Furthermore, is this not what John from Kentucky has been trying to get across?

Again, I don't necessarily disagree but I'm still trying to work it all out. Especially knowing Christ can empty Himself of His divinity (which He did) and die, while the Father alone possess immortality. In this way, is it still sensible to conclude that the two are one and not separate beings? Can we not be one but separate beings? Is not the body of Christ one, each of us being individuals though? When a man cleaves to his wife, they twain are one but two bodies. Still two individuals. Am I rambling now? Maybe...

I guess it is possible for them to be one and not separate beings either as I understand ray saying the issue with this would be to therefor insinuate that we now have two gods, and we know there is only one God.

In Christ,
Alex

[Kat]

Alex, I am not just trying to get everybody to agree with me, but to show a perspective that may not have been considered, for discussion. As we have seen with what Ray taught, so many times the truth turns out to be something we were not expecting it to be.

I have tried to study all the Scripture I could find on the subject and what they all combined mean (the sum of the truth) and point out what I think it says there. Certainly there are so many Scripture on this and more than what I can put in a post, but I am more than willing to consider any Scripture somebody can bring out that says something else or more about this.

All we can do is study the Scripture (I really believe this is key) and pray that God's Spirit will bring us understanding on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

The way I see it there is a difference in being good, " none good but one, God ", and doing good as men sometimes do. We are influenced by God, and therefore are able to do good works in the faith.
Jesus went about doing good because God was with him. Acts 10:38
To worship more than one God is Idolatry, Jesus never claimed to be a second God in a Godhead. He always talked about his oneness with the Father. "you see me, you have seen the Father.", "I and my Father are one."
He did speak about being "The Son of God", and that greatly irritated the religious leaders that were out to have him killed.
There is none good, but some can do good, Only God IS good. First and second Kings, And Chronicles are chocked full of examples of kings that did good, and evil, but it seems there are more kings that did evil than good.

Joel

[santgem]

Jesus said no one is good except God. Was He including Himself in this verse. How could He not include Himself, unless He is God. Any thoughts on this.    Ricky

Greetings Ricky,

Nowhere in verse Mark 10:18 Jesus refuses the title, but for sure Jesus is good shepherd, and He is good!


I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. Jhn 10:11

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. Jhn 10:14

even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.Jhn 10:15

[[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

[microlink]

Jesus said no one is good except God. Was He including Himself in this verse. How could He not include Himself, unless He is God. Any thoughts on this.    Ricky

The way I see it there is a difference in being good, " none good but one, God ", and doing good as men sometimes do. We are influenced by God, and therefore are able to do good works in the faith.
Jesus went about doing good because God was with him. Acts 10:38
To worship more than one God is Idolatry, Jesus never claimed to be a second God in a Godhead. He always talked about his oneness with the Father. "you see me, you have seen the Father.", "I and my Father are one."
He did speak about being "The Son of God", and that greatly irritated the religious leaders that were out to have him killed.
There is none good, but some can do good, Only God IS good. First and second Kings, And Chronicles are chocked full of examples of kings that did good, and evil, but it seems there are more kings that did evil than good.

Joel

There is none good but one.

What a profound statement.

Yet everything Jesus did was good. As a Sheppard He was good. Doing miracles was  good. All His actions were good.

Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. Flesh

Heb_4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Flesh is tempted in all points .

All have sinned -  except Christ.

Jesus was flesh, born of a woman, lineage is from Adam.

Rom_8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 

He condemned sin in the flesh because He did NOT sin.

Rom_8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Why can they in the flesh (all human beings) not please God?  Because all have sinned and come short! EXCEPT Jesus Christ.

Therefore, Jesus knowing the pulls of the flesh and always resisting having a full measure of the Holy Spirit, said there is none good, but one, God the Father.

[Dave in Tenn]

Alex, actually I was leaping over the ensuing discussion and going for an answer straight and solely for the OP. 

I absolutely agree with Kat when she says that the "answers" are 1.  In Scripture, and 2.  In the SUM of His Word.  The keys for me are Paul's sermon to the Athenians and Jesus's explanation that WE are also in this relationship He has with the Father.  That takes it out of theological speculation and puts it in terms I can understand (better) because I am a party to this.

That the "God" of the OT is Jesus the Christ and that He declared to His disciples (all Hebrews) that HE HIMSELF has a Father are significant also, to my mind.  Anyways, I can't 'teach' it, even if I were 'allowed'. 

It was easy for me when reading the Trinity paper to put aside the notion of the Holy Spirit as the THIRD PERSON of a trinity...yet I can't put aside the fact that there IS a Holy Spirit.  It's been more difficult to lay aside the notion that this leaves TWO GODS.  But it doesn't.  In fact, I've even tried to retrain my mouth and my typing fingers to restrict the use of "god" as a name, especially considering that there are many "gods" and many "lords".  Theologians can't have these words any more.  They belong to me, now, and I will define them as they are used in (by their usage in) Scripture, as best as I can with the grace of God.   

[lilitalienboi16]

Alex, actually I was leaping over the ensuing discussion and going for an answer straight and solely for the OP. 

I absolutely agree with Kat when she says that the "answers" are 1.  In Scripture, and 2.  In the SUM of His Word.  The keys for me are Paul's sermon to the Athenians and Jesus's explanation that WE are also in this relationship He has with the Father.  That takes it out of theological speculation and puts it in terms I can understand (better) because I am a party to this.

That the "God" of the OT is Jesus the Christ and that He declared to His disciples (all Hebrews) that HE HIMSELF has a Father are significant also, to my mind.  Anyways, I can't 'teach' it, even if I were 'allowed'. 

It was easy for me when reading the Trinity paper to put aside the notion of the Holy Spirit as the THIRD PERSON of a trinity...yet I can't put aside the fact that there IS a Holy Spirit.  It's been more difficult to lay aside the notion that this leaves TWO GODS.  But it doesn't.  In fact, I've even tried to retrain my mouth and my typing fingers to restrict the use of "god" as a name, especially considering that there are many "gods" and many "lords".  Theologians can't have these words any more.  They belong to me, now, and I will define them as they are used in (by their usage in) Scripture, as best as I can with the grace of God.   

Thanks Dave.

I see what you're saying. I see what everyone else is saying too. I definitely like what you said about sticking to scripture usage of the terms gods, God, Lord etc... You're right, theologians have certainly made a mess of this one and perhaps it is also the barrier of time and space that makes this a sticky place for us all. I certainly see it more clearly when I stick to how the scripture is describing the relationship and stop interjecting modern theology to it. Well, this has been edifying. Thank you dave and kat, appreciate it.

[John from Kentucky]

Truly, You are a God Who hides Himself,
O God of Israel, Savior!     Isa 45:15 NASB