Need wisdom

[lilitalienboi16]

Dear brothers and sisters,

Is it wrong to join a military branch as a doctor who would do no combat or play any roll in killing in order to take advantage of excellent programs that pay for my medical schooling and provide me with monthly allowance over the course of my education? I would be required to serve anywhere from 4-8 years when I am finished but in a non combat (healer) role.

I need guidance. I am praying about this fervently and am leaning towards taking federal loans to pay for my education as I currently I feel it would still be wrong even as a non combat personal to join the military because I would be aiding a system that exists to kill (and defend).

Anyone have wisdom on the matter?

In Christ,
Alex

[Extol]

Dear Alex,

This is something I have pondered before myself. I haven't considered joining the military, but I've wondered if it is acceptable in God's eyes to be employed by the military as a cook, or a mechanic, or a chaplain, or a doctor.

On one hand, there is this verse: "Why should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord?" (2 Chronicles 19:2). On the other hand, we are to provide for our families, and maybe for some fathers and husbands, the military is their only job opportunity. Also, even if you are a civilian doctor, you'll surely be helping some wicked people who hate the Lord. Not all your patients will be saints. So what is the balance? I do not know.

Like you, I am leaning towards federal loans. After reading your post and praying for wisdom, I  found an old e-mail from Ray. A person was asking for advice regarding her boyfriend who drinks and smokes. At the end of the e-mail, Ray says:

So there, briefly, is what the Scriptures say regarding wine and strong drink, but your situation will have to be evaluated by you. Ask God to guide you in ALL YOUR DECISIONS IN LIFE.

I realize that your problem is no smaller now than before you wrote to me, but maybe there is some wisdom here for you to consider.  Let me just say this: Character flaws that have the potential to escalate over time, will drive away any strong romantic attractions that you are feeling NOW.   (all caps are Ray's.)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13798.0.html

Even though it was a different situation than yours, this part stood out to me...especially the last line, about character flaws escalating and driving away romantic attractions. I think we might apply your situation here, with the military taking the place of the would-be husband. The character flaws (i.e., the military exists to kill and defend) have the potential to escalate over time, and it might not be worth the present romantic attractions (i.e., having your education paid for.) It's very possible--maybe even probable--that at some point, there is going to be a conflict of interest...especially if you're required to serve for 4-8 years. That's a long time for things to potentially escalate. But if God does lead you down that path, He is able to protect you from evil and provide for your family. If I had a similar conundrum, I would prefer the burden of debt over the burden of being stuck in a sticky situation I couldn't get out of for several years. God-willing, you would get paid well as a doctor, and be able to make all of your debt payments. But above all, as Ray said, ask God to guide you in ALL decisions of your life, and He will do so. 

[lilitalienboi16]

Dear Alex,

This is something I have pondered before myself. I haven't considered joining the military, but I've wondered if it is acceptable in God's eyes to be employed by the military as a cook, or a mechanic, or a chaplain, or a doctor.

On one hand, there is this verse: "Why should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord?" (2 Chronicles 19:2). On the other hand, we are to provide for our families, and maybe for some fathers and husbands, the military is their only job opportunity. Also, even if you are a civilian doctor, you'll surely be helping some wicked people who hate the Lord. Not all your patients will be saints. So what is the balance? I do not know.

Like you, I am leaning towards federal loans. After reading your post and praying for wisdom, I  found an old e-mail from Ray. A person was asking for advice regarding her boyfriend who drinks and smokes. At the end of the e-mail, Ray says:

So there, briefly, is what the Scriptures say regarding wine and strong drink, but your situation will have to be evaluated by you. Ask God to guide you in ALL YOUR DECISIONS IN LIFE.

I realize that your problem is no smaller now than before you wrote to me, but maybe there is some wisdom here for you to consider.  Let me just say this: Character flaws that have the potential to escalate over time, will drive away any strong romantic attractions that you are feeling NOW.   (all caps are Ray's.)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13798.0.html

Even though it was a different situation than yours, this part stood out to me...especially the last line, about character flaws escalating and driving away romantic attractions. I think we might apply your situation here, with the military taking the place of the would-be husband. The character flaws (i.e., the military exists to kill and defend) have the potential to escalate over time, and it might not be worth the present romantic attractions (i.e., having your education paid for.) It's very possible--maybe even probable--that at some point, there is going to be a conflict of interest...especially if you're required to serve for 4-8 years. That's a long time for things to potentially escalate. But if God does lead you down that path, He is able to protect you from evil and provide for your family. If I had a similar conundrum, I would prefer the burden of debt over the burden of being stuck in a sticky situation I couldn't get out of for several years. God-willing, you would get paid well as a doctor, and be able to make all of your debt payments. But above all, as Ray said, ask God to guide you in ALL decisions of your life, and He will do so. 

Dear Jesse,

What a wonderful response. Thank you so much brother. There are many logistical nitemares with this move but God will keep me no matter the path. He will provide. Ray's words were spot on too. I will continue to pray about this but I do agree about the burden of debt over a sticky situation though as you also pointed out, even outside the military I would get stuck with helping wicked people too. Sigh, this is so difficult, I want to serve God wholly and faithfully but I need to provide for my family. What a straight and narrow road we walk.

God bless you brother,
Alex

[Craig]

I was in the military in my twenties, and if I had to live my life over I would not change a thing.

Craig

[octoberose]

Hi Alex,
As you may know, my husband retired from the military chaplaincy three years ago after 27 years so my  perspective is from a lot of experience. It is not too much to say that military doctors have not only kept my family well but saved my life and the life of my child. It's also true that a better doctor in some circumstances could have made our lives better.
I don't know what God will lead you to do- He surely leads in ways we don't expect. I will tell you that a doctor is first and foremost a soldier (assuming we're talking about the Army), then they are an officer and then they are a doctor. 90% of your job will be that doctor part, but it will be under the umbrella of the military and then as an officer. If wearing that uniform and towing that line is not something you can do, then you'll be miserable.
Yes, you would be a noncombatant but even more than that in a conflict situation you will probably be called upon to take care of at the 'enemy'. That's kind of a great thing if you think about .  Many times in Kosovo my husband would make sure that the captured injured soldier on the other side was treated well and tended to- and they always were.
So, God bless your heart as you seek His will. i have always thought that being a doctor is living a sacrificial life for the good of others and I'm so proud of you.
Patricia

[lilitalienboi16]

I was in the military in my twenties, and if I had to live my life over I would not change a thing.

Craig

Hi Craig,

Can you offer more insight to your experience looking back now with the wisdom you have today? Could you address my situation more directly knowing my current concerns?

God bless,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Alex,
As you may know, my husband retired from the military chaplaincy three years ago after 27 years so my  perspective is from a lot of experience. It is not too much to say that military doctors have not only kept my family well but saved my life and the life of my child. It's also true that a better doctor in some circumstances could have made our lives better.
I don't know what God will lead you to do- He surely leads in ways we don't expect. I will tell you that a doctor is first and foremost a soldier (assuming we're talking about the Army), then they are an officer and then they are a doctor. 90% of your job will be that doctor part, but it will be under the umbrella of the military and then as an officer. If wearing that uniform and towing that line is not something you can do, then you'll be miserable.
Yes, you would be a noncombatant but even more than that in a conflict situation you will probably be called upon to take care of at the 'enemy'. That's kind of a great thing if you think about .  Many times in Kosovo my husband would make sure that the captured injured soldier on the other side was treated well and tended to- and they always were.
So, God bless your heart as you seek His will. i have always thought that being a doctor is living a sacrificial life for the good of others and I'm so proud of you.
Patricia

Hi Patricia,

Thank you for sharing your husbands experience and your own. I hear a lot of what you said in Jesse's post. At least with the, "there will always be wicked people who hate the Lord" that I will be confronted with and have to help. The "enemy." As you see the beauty in that, I too as well, this was one the appeals to becoming a physician in my own mind; that I didn't have to worry about who the person was, I was going to help them regardless. "Agape" the world as God does, by His grace and mercy--glorifying Him.

My struggle is to provide for my family righteously and by obeying God. I fret about the "soldier first" part that you mentioned. I am not a soldier for any earthly kingdom. I want no part in the killing or murder of other men. I want to trust God for my defense and leave vengeance up to Him.

Can all these things be accomplished while owing 4-8 years of my life after my schooling is finished to this earthly system? God is able to keep us through any way and in any circumstance so I will trust Him to provide me with the path to walk, directing my steps, and what He has planned will be. I will keep praying on the matter. In time, I pray, He will direct me down the right and reveal to me what is His will.

God bless,
Alex

[AwesomeSavior]

Alex:

May the Lord guide you in making the right decision.

I personally have no problem with someone defending themselves or their family if they were ever to come under attack. I do understand the prohibition in Scripture against murder and vengeance, but that is obvious. Even the disciples carried swords. (Luke 22:35-38)

Dean

[John from Kentucky]

Peoples' opinions are ?

But what does Jesus say?  But Jesus said to him.  Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.  Matt 26:52

I wonder if Jesus knew what He was talking about?

There is no proof in the Scriptures that either Jesus or His Apostles (after their conversion) ever defended themselves by physical force or joined a country's armed forces for money or other reasons.

[AwesomeSavior]

Is it literally true that ALL who take the sword will perish by the sword, or was Jesus referring to that situation, where His crucifixion was necessary for the salvation of mankind? Notice what Jesus says in verse 53 and 54..."Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than 12 legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (Matthew 26:53-54)

If someone were attacking my family, shall I say to them... "Sorry, nothing I can do about that. Best wishes against the bad guy..." OR would it be another example of one PROVIDING for his family, in an extreme emergency? "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel". (1 Timothy 5:8

Alex... I would never get involved in the military for combat purposes, but if it were strictly for medical purposes, then that is more of a gray area. Perhaps you could be a good witness to many who haven't a clue as to the truth. The Lord will guide you, one way or another.

[John from Kentucky]

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1516.0.html

[John from Kentucky]

Alex,

I have read that some States will pay for a medical education if upon graduation the recipient agrees to work as a doctor in the poor or rural regions of a State.  Have you looked into such programs?

[Dave in Tenn]

Alex,

I have read that some States will pay for a medical education if upon graduation the recipient agrees to work as a doctor in the poor or rural regions of a State.  Have you looked into such programs?

Just a quick google result--may or may not apply.

http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissions-doctor/2012/02/20/explore-new-options-to-repay-medical-school-loans

[AwesomeSavior]

Luke 11:21-22: "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in
peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him
all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

According to Jesus...Peace in a man's palace or home is the result of being armed, not disarmed. I wonder if Jesus knew what He was talking about?   

[John from Kentucky]

Luke 11:21-22: "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in
peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him
all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

According to Jesus...Peace in a man's palace or home is the result of being armed, not disarmed. I wonder if Jesus knew what He was talking about?

Jesus knew what He was talking about, but you do not.  What I highlighted in your statement is not what Jesus was talking about.  Jesus was stating a parable.  Not a literal statement.  All parables are about only one thing, as Ray has brought out, a contrast between the called/chosen and the many/unchosen.

Let's speak the truth here.  You are troubled by some of the quoted Scriptures by me and Ray, which do not mesh with your opinions, and that causes a twinge in your conscience, which you must try and justify.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi all,

Thank you for bringing my attention to these other avenues for compensation. I heard of them in passing very briefly and forgot the moment after about these methods. I did not hear good things about them by the person who was informing myself and other students, that person being a financial adviser at the school who handles student payment plans and federal loans. That being said, I am not at all closed to the idea. I am open to whatever God will's. I will look further into these. I haven't personally yet looked at the links that were provided, merely responding to let everyone know I am aware and grateful for the reminder of them.

AwesomeSaviour, Your name is dean correct? I'm terribly sorry I don't want to get it wrong! I know we've had conversations before. As for carrying a weapon, I could never do such a thing. I want to trust God fully and turning to a weapon for my own protection would show my lack of faith in Him to provide and protect. I turn to these verses which give me assurance to the trust I have placed, and presumed, God with.

Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

Matthew 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

Rom 12:9-21  "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.  Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

I do agree that time in the military would allow me to be a great witness to those around me but God is not interested at this moment in saving the world. He is working with a few chosen so I don't feel there is any need to witness or go out of my way to be a witness. There were very few reasons for me to ever consider the military and as I was leaning more towards loans, I am even more so now due to the great wisdom everyone has shared with me. I am so very thankful for it all.

John, you are right. The apostles and Christ never turned to the systems of this world when they needed money.

I still have time to think about the matter and will continue to pray on it. I appreciate everyones contribution, please don't hesitate to provide more input or advice. I am taking it all in. This is one of those "Crossroad" moments in my life so I want to make the right decision by the grace of God.

Thank you again everyone and God bless,
Alex

[AwesomeSavior]

JFK:

I'm not troubled about anything I have quoted from the Lord. Nice attempt at trying to displace your own troubled-ness onto me, though. 

I will leave you all with a final thought about gun ownership. I'm sure you are aware of what happened in Ferguson, Missouri, and the resulting rioting in that city and others after the grand jury verdict was reached. It's my firm belief that this is just the beginning of the anarchy that the Lord is going to cause to happen in this now "God-forsaken" nation. Ray hinted about this very thing in his "In The Day Of The Great Slaughter..." paper, where he believed the 9/11 situation was not a "general" catastrophic happening, but a very specific happening unlike anything before it. Then 7 years after 9-11, the so called Great Recession began, which affected even more people personally than 9-11. As this nation becomes more and more like Sodom & Gomorrah, as Ray also said, there becomes more wrong with America than right.

What lies ahead for the United States in general? I have my own suspicions, and I am making necessary preparations for myself and my family in the chance that the Lord is going to cause more upheaval across this land.

Alex... I understand     Take care.

[Kat]

Hi AwesomeSavior,

Mat 26:52  But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Concerning the time we live in, do not be caught up in the mass histeria of thinking there is coming great tribulation at the end of the age.

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only
v. 37  But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
v. 38  For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
v. 39  and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

If you're thinking about Matt 24 that it says the great tribulation is coming and without it being shortened no flesh would be saved alive, it is my opinion that is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
v. 22  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

You can see that the diciples asked 2 questions at the beginning of the chapter and Christ answered those questions one after the other, first about the destruction of the temple and then starting in verse 29 when the end of the age would come.


Alex, you are doing the right thing by weighing all your options. Have you ever considered other aspects of the medical field besides being an doctor? Wherever you go and whatever you do will be where you are meant to be/do and the experience that God wants you to have. I do pray for you and know hope that God gives you confidence in your final decision.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Extol]

Luke 11:21-22: "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in
peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him
all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

According to Jesus...Peace in a man's palace or home is the result of being armed, not disarmed. I wonder if Jesus knew what He was talking about?

Dean,

Not to play Christian theologian here, but...context, context, context! 

Luke 11:14-26 (New International Version)--

14 Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed. 15 But some of them said, "By Beelzebul, the prince of demons, he is driving out demons." 16 Others tested him by asking for a sign from heaven.

17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. 18 If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebul. 19 Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. 22 But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up his plunder.

23 "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

24 "When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' 25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first."

Jesus is talking about demons and unclean spirits inhabiting a person. Wouldn't it be strange if, in the middle of his teaching, he interjected two sentences about a man guarding his physical house with physical weapons and armor? I think He was talking about a different kind of armor...

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Ephesians 6:10-17.

[Rene]

I have read that some States will pay for a medical education if upon graduation the recipient agrees to work as a doctor in the poor or rural regions of a State.  Have you looked into such programs?

Just a quick google result--may or may not apply.

http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissions-doctor/2012/02/20/explore-new-options-to-repay-medical-school-loans

Alex, 

I agree with JFK and Dave, and think this may be a wonderful option to pursue instead of joining the military for financial help.

Here is a scripture that came to mind when I was reading your comments. I mean no offense, and hope you understand the spirit behind this scripture, and know that I share it out of love.

Heb 12:14 - "Peace be pursuing with all, and the obtaining of holiness,—without which no one shall see the Lord:
vs 16 - "Lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau,—who, for the sake of one meal, yielded up his own firstborn rights.

René