Kingdom of God - of the heavens

[lurquer]

Sounds boring.

I guess the women will wear long dresses to their ankles, which will be covered in modest black socks.  Their long hair will be tied up in a knot and covered by a head scarf.  No bikini.  The women will clean house and churn butter all day.

The men will be farmers spreading manure over the fields.

I guess they will attend some type of religious service daily to pray to the Lord, read the good book, and keep their minds off sex.

No need for roads.  Why travel?  A veritable local utopia.

No electricity, no T.V., no radio. no internet.  No joking or laughter permitted.  Living religiously is serious business after all.

Sounds like a Christian North Korea.


Please Jesus, if that is what you have planned for the world, send me to hell with some loose women, and no Christians or any kind of religious people allowed.

I can appreciate sarcasm.  I understand your point too.  But, I don't think anyone here really believes any of what you're saying will pertain to the Kingdom Age.  Like Kat, I see no reason why human technology must be done away with, on the contrary, I see it growing and advancing exponentially in the Kingdom...

However, some of what you imply (in sarcasm?) seems kind of oddly backwards to me.  Why your strong focus on sexuality?  Of course, mortals will still be living, being married and procreating during that time, so it will still be going on, but really, do I still have to be accosted by thongs when I'm at the beach with my wife and daughters?  Have you been to the beach lately, John?  Or is your impression of "bikinis" still the Mousketeer Annette  Funicello Beach Blanket Bingo sort of thing.. Cuz I'm here to tell you, things have really changed in that regard.

And I don't know about you brother, but when most of us get a little bit more mature--even in this world--it becomes not so much of a chore to "keep our minds off of sex" all the time.  I tend to think that in the world to come, it will be a bit easier even (especially if we're all not constantly afflicted with rote pornography--in all of it's subtle, and not-so-subtle forms). 

I for one don't want to be "spreading manure on fields" all day either (and I enjoy my gardens and mini-farm immensely)...I think the old adage, 'work smarter, not harder' will apply in that Future Day as well, and much more!  Likewise, I don't want to see women "churning butter and cleaning houses" all day...unless they're doing it in a summer dress and high heels of course .  But skip the gratuitous nudity, please.  I've had enough of that offense, and frankly, some of the bodies on display at said beaches NEED to be covered. 

That being said, is it commonly accepted among all here that the Kingdom of God begins on the earth and ultimately spreads to all of the universe (since "of the increase of His kingdom will be no end")?

[lilitalienboi16]

I can appreciate sarcasm.  I understand your point too.  But, I don't think anyone here really believes any of what you're saying will pertain to the Kingdom Age.  Like Kat, I see no reason why human technology must be done away with, on the contrary, I see it growing and advancing exponentially in the Kingdom...

However, some of what you imply (in sarcasm?) seems kind of oddly backwards to me.  Why your strong focus on sexuality?  Of course, mortals will still be living, being married and procreating during that time, so it will still be going on, but really, do I still have to be accosted by thongs when I'm at the beach with my wife and daughters?  Have you been to the beach lately, John?  Or is your impression of "bikinis" still the Mousketeer Annette  Funicello Beach Blanket Bingo sort of thing.. Cuz I'm here to tell you, things have really changed in that regard.

And I don't know about you brother, but when most of us get a little bit more mature--even in this world--it becomes not so much of a chore to "keep our minds off of sex" all the time.  I tend to think that in the world to come, it will be a bit easier even (especially if we're all not constantly afflicted with rote pornography--in all of it's subtle, and not-so-subtle forms). 

I for one don't want to be "spreading manure on fields" all day either (and I enjoy my gardens and mini-farm immensely)...I think the old adage, 'work smarter, not harder' will apply in that Future Day as well, and much more!  Likewise, I don't want to see women "churning butter and cleaning houses" all day...unless they're doing it in a summer dress and high heels of course .  But skip the gratuitous nudity, please.  I've had enough of that offense, and frankly, some of the bodies on display at said beaches NEED to be covered. 

That being said, is it commonly accepted among all here that the Kingdom of God begins on the earth and ultimately spreads to all of the universe (since "of the increase of His kingdom will be no end")?

Neo, there is no indication in the next age that there will be any procreating.

Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

Mark 12:25 "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."

Notice it is "IN THE RESSURECTION" that there is no marriage or giving in marriage but being like the angels. All humanity will partake in the resurrection. It doesn't sound to me like there will be any physical baby making going on in the next age even for those who are RESSURECTED into physical bodies.

There is also no indication of anything as literal as technology being needed. We are talking about a time where paul said, no eye has seen nor ear has heard.

1 Cor 2:8 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Isaiah 64:4 "For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him."

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I think too many people are trying to understand what comes beyond this age when there is very little about the next age we are told. Ray mentioned a few of those things such as the increase of His government having no end that we as individuals will continue to increase and grow as well but I don't know how some of you are going into detail about technology, roads, bridges, beaches, what the first act of business will be, etc... We just don't know and there is an enormous amount of speculation going on that I don't even think begins to hit the nail on the head.

We should stop trying to frame the coming kingdom of God through the eyes of man. We are trying to understand this age through what we know about the current age of man that we know will be done away with.

Remember...

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: FOR THE FORMER THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Isaiah 65:17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

There are many verses, some of which I listed, which talk about old things being passed away and no more. So why are so many people so sure that the next age is the old stuff minus the sin? The old stuff without the ungodliness? Didn't Christ say:

Mark 2:22 "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. "

Isn't there a pattern here for us to see? The new stuff, as ray said, isn't keeping the old stuff better! That's what the church believes. I don't think the coming kingdom of God will be keeping the old stuff better either.

God bless,
Alex

[lurquer]

Well, of course you could be 100% right, Alex, we don't know much at all about the next age.  Speculation, all, but then that was the point of this thread..

I've always thought of the passage in Matthew 22 on marrying in the resurrection applied to those who were in the first resurrection only, but you're right, it's ambiguous at least.  However, if you theorize that Christ meant that ALL in the resurrection(s) would not marry, then you are saying He'll raise mortal men in corrupt bodies (which he will) that will somehow be sexless?  Interesting thought--I've never considered that.  Does anyone else see it that way? (Certainly not John  )

I suppose I take these scriptures to give credence to the idea that children will be born during that time:

Is11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."

And also, below, where Isaiah seems to be speaking of the elect:


Is65:17 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

And is this not saying there will still be death (at least for a time?)  The Kingdom does not come to all at once.  Indeed many will find themselves "outside the gates".  All of the promises you mention (with which I agree and eagerly await!) come, it seems to me, at the culmination of the Kingdom, not necessarily in the beginning, no?

I'd love to hear more comment about this very interesting subject.

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

This discussion stems from things Ray taught about when the kingdom comes to this world... specifically that the world will be raised back to physical life. They will be judged by the same means which the elect are now, gehenna fire. Here is where Ray explained that.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html ---------

In Matt. 23:33 Jesus warns the Pharisees of Gehenna judgment:

"Ye serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation [Gk: 'a tribunal, justice, JUDGMENT'] of Gehenna?"

And so Gehenna fire is clearly seen as a way in which Jesus Judges sinners, and specifically, the sins of the eyes, hands, and feet. Gehenna fire IS JUDGMENT. What else is Gehenna?

GEHENNA FIRE IS THE FIRE NEVER QUENCHED:

In Matt. 9:43 & 45, the Judgment for offending with our eyes, hands, and feet is again mentioned, and here we learn that the fire of this judgment "...never shall be quenched." It is not eternal fire, but it is fire that shall not be "put out" until it "burns out" all that it is designed to purge. So Gehenna fire is also the notorious "unquenchable fire." And so Gehenna fire and unquenchable fire are the same fire of JUDGMENT.

GEHENNA FIRE IS THE FURNACE OF FIRE:

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things [those] that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13:41-42).

This is the same Judgment of Gehenna fire which is used to judge all those who offend with their eyes, hands, and feet. Here ALL who offend are put into a furnace of fire which is the same as the unquenchable fire, and the Gehenna fire.
----------------------------------------------------------------

There are many verses, some of which I listed, which talk about old things being passed away and no more. So why are so many people so sure that the next age is the old stuff minus the sin? The old stuff without the ungodliness?

Some of those Scripture are speaking of the 'old' covenant and the 'new' covenant, but that is a good example of the difference that the elect are experiencing right now in the world, how much more so will the difference be in the next age?

Yes there will be a "new heaven and a new earth" (Rev 21:1) that is exactly what i am trying to point out... "the former things are passed away" isn't that Satan's reign in this present world? I can certainly see that when Christ takes charge to reign that there will be such a major difference that it will be like a "new world," but we will still be on the physical earth.

If the world is to be judged by what they did/do with their "eyes, hands and feet" in the same way as the elect are being judged now, gehenna fire, then their judgment should be similar to the judgement the believers are going through now. We are given much in the Scripture that the Apostles tell the brethren who to live, so why wouldn't that apply to the judgement in the next age?

Why are some disturbed that believers should speak of those things that we have our hopes set on? This should only be an encouragement, it's not the be taken as absolute at all, but only a possibility. I truly cannot understand why somebody would think it is inappropriate to speak on these things. Everything I have tried to point out was meant to be positive and uplifting. Yes it was about the physical, because I believe the elect will be dealing with mostly a physical and carnal world for quite a while, I was just trying to make it more real.  Rene pointed out this Scripture.

1Cor. 13:12 - "For we see, as yet, through a dim window, obscurely, but then face to face: as yet, I gain knowledge, in part, but then, shall I fully know, even as I was also fully known." (Rotherham)

Paul did say "as yet, I gain knowledge, in part," shouldn't we all seek to gain knowledge, didn't Christ say "seek and you shall find"... when Jesus spoke the parable about the Nobleman and the servant, He gave out "minas" something of value to each believer (Luke 19). He certainly did not think it was a good thing to bury it, He wants you to do the best you can to make it grow and increase what you have been given. I think this discussions help us to grow, it's just suppose to be an exchange of ideas to help us visualize the next age.

Mat 7:7  "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
v.8  For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Kat,

I don't think you did anything wrong in sharing what you think might come. I was just chiming in and maybe reminding everyone to be cautious not to take any of this as absolute fact. We are all just speculating.

I have no qualms at all with what you said about judgement and I would hope you know that I know the coming Resurrection for the vast number of people will be a physical one.

I was not trying to offend or accuse you of anything. Love you dear sister.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Well, of course you could be 100% right, Alex, we don't know much at all about the next age.  Speculation, all, but then that was the point of this thread..

I've always thought of the passage in Matthew 22 on marrying in the resurrection applied to those who were in the first resurrection only, but you're right, it's ambiguous at least.  However, if you theorize that Christ meant that ALL in the resurrection(s) would not marry, then you are saying He'll raise mortal men in corrupt bodies (which he will) that will somehow be sexless?  Interesting thought--I've never considered that.  Does anyone else see it that way? (Certainly not John  )

I suppose I take these scriptures to give credence to the idea that children will be born during that time:

Is11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."

And also, below, where Isaiah seems to be speaking of the elect:


Is65:17 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

And is this not saying there will still be death (at least for a time?)  The Kingdom does not come to all at once.  Indeed many will find themselves "outside the gates".  All of the promises you mention (with which I agree and eagerly await!) come, it seems to me, at the culmination of the Kingdom, not necessarily in the beginning, no?

I'd love to hear more comment about this very interesting subject.

Hi Neo,

Well there is a Scripture that does remove any doubt about there being a continuation of death and rebirth in the next age.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Then there is Revelation that speaks of "no more death."

Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:
v.4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

So with that I don't see room for there being any more physical death once a person is raised to judgment.

Now one thing that every person must go through and that includes all raised up to judgment in the next age and that is the second death. The Scripture does not explain what death is being spoken of, that must be discerned.

I think Alex is right about there being no more marrying, nor birth of new life in the next age... I say that because of Hebrews 9 saying that after this life there is death and then judgment. I do not see where there is a continuation of the cycle of life for the human race, that seems to be what this age is for, creating human life and the next age for the judgment of those.

Now as for the "infant" and "child" spoken of in Isaiah, well there certainly will be many many children in the next. Here are a couple of places Ray spoke on that.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,201.0.html ----------
Dear Matt:

There are only two resurrection to immortality.

The first is for the chosen elect overcomes explained in part in (I Cor. 15).

All others--children, criminals, mentally challenged, the many called but not chosen, etc.

In the case with children we are told:  "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the child shall die [spiritually die to his carnal mind purged through judgment] an hundred years old; but the sinner being an an hundred years old [and not yet purged of his carnal mind through judgment] shall be accursed [until he IS thoroughly purged]" (Isa. 65:20).

God's judgments are both light and harsh. (See Luke 12:45).

Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. The harden criminals will have to be "THROWN into this fiery judgment of the carnal mind and human will which hates the ways of
God. (See Rev. 20:15).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,815.0.html ------------------

Dear Reader:
    Babies will not enter into the Kingdom of God. In Isa 65:20 we read this concerning judgment:  "There shall be NO more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not FILLED his days: for the child shall die an HUNDRED years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
     
    Don't now ask me to "explain" the judgments of God, as that would take weeks.
    God be with you,
    Ray

[lilitalienboi16]

I want to add to what ray said about the child dying a hundred years old being spiritual for judgement.

Paul said this:

1 Cor 13:10-11 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Judgement is a process and here we see that we go from being a child to being a man, an adult. I see Isaiah's reference to the child being very much a spiritual prophecy about judgement, especially because of the reference to sinners that follows directly afterwards also being a hundred years old.

Ephesians 4 puts this all together nicely in my humble opinion.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may GROW UP into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Lastly, paul talks about being a "babe" in Christ.

1 Cor 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Hebrews 5

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

There may be more references to this type of idea in other scriptures but this is what came to mind for now. I could be completely wrong about this spiritual discernment of Isaiah but I think it fits with what ray wrote in those emails and I see these as good spiritual matches.

In Christ,
Alex

[lurquer]

Okay, well maybe we're not understanding each other. I do want to understand this subject, so bear with me..

First of all, Kat, you and Alex continue to post scripture which I believe refers to the culmination of the Kingdom Age.  Tell me how I'm wrong about that. When you read, "and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away,"  how do you apply that to the setting up of God's kingdom on earth, when clearly Jesus said there would be "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?  Do you believe this will be only "spiritual" weeping and gnashing?  And what of "my servants shall be comforted, but you shall mourn"...I could go on and on about how scripture states the judgments will be painful to the many who are resurrected therein. 

You say, "Well there is a Scripture that does remove any doubt about there being a continuation of death and rebirth in the next age.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, "

Right, but won't some go alive into the Kingdom age when Christ returns?  Or are you suggesting that ALL will be slain who are not in the first Resurrection?  If so, I'm quite curious as to where you discern that, because I've never seen anything suggesting that in scripture, or in any of Ray's teachings.  Could you elaborate?  And if you agree that some do indeed go alive into the next Age, why wouldn't they still die and yet not contradict Hebrews 9:27? (They haven't died "once").  This scripture just doesn't "remove all doubt" for me.

Indeed, if you do believe that some will remain alive on the earth (as mortals) after Christ's return, then the quote you submitted from Ray:

There are only two resurrection to immortality.
The first is for the chosen elect overcomes explained in part in (I Cor. 15).
All others--children, criminals, mentally challenged, the many called but not chosen, etc.

would not necessarily contradict that.  Yes, there are only Two Resurrections to Immortality, the scripture shows, but, why do you assume they both happen as one event in time and space?  Even the Resurrection to life, for God's elect, doesn't unambiguously declare that "those who alive and remain" will be risen precisely at the same moment as "those who sleep in Christ"--on the contrary, it says "they will in no way precede them"...So there is a distinct time delay even with the Elect.  Why not with the others?  In other words, why should there only be ONE resurrection event for the unbelievers?  Again,maybe I'm missing something here, but where does scripture make that clear?  (I realize maybe I'm at odds with Ray on that, but he's not here for me to ask him   )

Maybe all that sounds silly, I don't know.  I'm not trying to prove any doctrine here, just asking questions...

And again, not to overly critique your quote of Ray's, but he seems to be "spiritualizing" the death of babies at a hundred years--and maybe he's got is right, I don't know... But if he does, then he is also saying that during the Kingdom Age, while Christ rules and "His judgments are in the earth", it will yet take a hundred years to finally overcome your carnality and achieve the status of a son of God... Depressing!

Finally, you say,

"I think Alex is right about there being no more marrying, nor birth of new life in the next age... I say that because of Hebrews 9 saying that after this life there is death and then judgment. I do not see where there is a continuation of the cycle of life for the human race, that seems to be what this age is for, creating human life and the next age for the judgment of those."

Well, wouldn't the mortals who enter in still be capable of reproducing?  If not, why not?  And if you take the stance that there will be no mortals, but all are slain prior to His return, do you then believe that those humans will subsequently be resurrected--with mortal, corrupt bodies--but without genitalia?  Not to be graphic, but, that's just a weird doctrine I've never heard.  And if they will still be 'anatomically correct', then do you really believe they won't still be using their anatomy? How will this be achieved?  Seriously, not trying to be a contrarian, but help me to understand all of this..

Maybe I'm completely ignorant of this theology, (wouldn't be the first time  ) but honestly, this is all news to me.  Really, big news...

Thanks,
Michael

[lurquer]

PS:

On the Hebrews 9:27 scripture that it is "appointed unto man once to die"... Well, clearly, many have died more than once.  Jesus raised Lazarus... then he died again.  All those who "came out of their tombs" after Jesus' resurrection...they also died again.  To say nothing of those who have died in recent times and been 'resurrected' by modern technology...These all were personally resurrected by Christ--some well after their bodies had decayed.  A bona fide resurrection!  And they all died again, no?

[lilitalienboi16]

Neo, I didn't read your entire post but I want to respond to one thing that stood out to me when I skimmed it. I will go back and give it a second read but let me address this quickly:

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

This death is not a literal death. No one will need to be "slayed." This is a dying to the self. Letting the old carnal nature die so that you may be made alive spiritually. We know this because judgement has already began on the house of God but none of us have physically died.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time IS COME that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

However, we are dying to the self.

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Those that go alive into the next age (not including the elect caught up with Christ when He returns) will still need to die to self. This dying to self happens as a part of judgement. It's not a literal death though! We are being judged now!

Hope this makes sense.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Hi Michael,

Yes there are many questions...

Right, but won't some go alive into the Kingdom age when Christ returns?  Or are you suggesting that ALL will be slain who are not in the first Resurrection?  If so, I'm quite curious as to where you discern that, because I've never seen anything suggesting that in scripture, or in any of Ray's teachings.  Could you elaborate?  And if you agree that some do indeed go alive into the next Age, why wouldn't they still die and yet not contradict Hebrews 9:27? (They haven't died "once").  This scripture just doesn't "remove all doubt" for me.

I do believe there will be many alive on earth when Christ returns, it does say eyes will see Him coming... "every eye will see Him."  But I think that this age is for a certain purpose and that has been marrying and to "be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth," and then "to die once," and the cycle has repeated over and over throughout the age. That has been the pattern throughout this age, to be given this physical life and then to die... and then to wait (in the grave) for resurrection. You made a good point though, about those resurrected when Jesus was on earth only to die again later, but that was miracles that stepped out of the normal pattern for this age, an exception if you will.

It just seems to me that this age is about bringing humans into existence, the starting of new life... sex has been the means for that, all the way from the beautiful relationship in a loving marriage, to the horrible violence of rape. This is an age of experiencing good and evil, in all the many various ways for that.

The next age is for a different purpose... judgment on those who have already lived once, the exception is the elect who have already been judged. When this age ends and Christ returns, the pattern that was set for this age will be over... things will be different. There will be those that live through that period, from this age into the next, and I think they will be in a special situation, they are then to partake of the new pattern of the new age. I do not think there will be physical death in the next age... what purpose would that serve? Death is a keeping place for everyone just until they are resurrected. The next age is that judgment - the second death - dying to self. Now after the first resurrection, I can see how the rest could be raised in stages, maybe, Paul did mention "each one in his own order," (1 Cor 15:23).

As for the judgement period, the prophets and patriarchs should only need a really short period to convert to believing in the gospel of Christ, considering they did serve the OT God all their lives and they even spoke about His coming. But Jesus said there are some that will not be saved even in the next age (Matt 12:32). So there could be a very big various in how long it takes for different people, with different backgrounds to repent and be converted. But of course we just do not know for sure how these things will play out in the next age. Hopefully this discussion can help us get more united in our understanding.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lurquer]

Well Kat and Alex, I actually agree with both of your last posts.

One point though, Alex--The fact that I do understand that Hebrews 9:27 is speaking of spiritual death was my point in arguing it the way I did.  Kat used it to prove there would be no physical death in the Kingdom Age, but we can't have it both ways, can we? If it is speaking of the spiritual,then it does not remove the possibility of the physical.  See?

Nevertheless, I fully accept the sense of your last post, Kat.  It seems true to me. The details, I guess, we really can't know, as obviously things will be SO radically different that anything we imagine will probably be wrong.  Like my sticking point of the 'sexlessness' of people resurrected with mortal, carnal bodies...I don't get that. But it does seem it must be so if, in fact, there will be no more creation of humans then.  How this will work, I have no idea.  Maybe John from Kentucky has some thoughts?   

I especially like what you said below..

The next age is for a different purpose... judgment on those who have already lived once, the exception is the elect who have already been judged. When this age ends and Christ returns, the pattern that was set for this age will be over... things will be different. There will be those that live through that period, from this age into the next, and I think they will be in a special situation, they are then to partake of the new pattern of the new age. I do not think there will be physical death in the next age... what purpose would that serve? Death is a keeping place for everyone just until they are resurrected. The next age is that judgment - the second death - dying to self. Now after the first resurrection, I can see how the rest could be raised in stages, maybe, Paul did mention "each one in his own order," (1 Cor 15:23).

That I can wrap my mind around.  I guess my fixation on the HOW of it is something I should just let go...for now.

[John from Kentucky]

Kat & Neo,

My post was intended as humor.

That you didn't quite "get it" is understandable.  All my life, I have observed that religious people have a hard time with humor.  They all seem to be a little tightly wound.


Most of the speculations in this thread are way off base because the guidance of the two witnesses is not followed.

The speculations are based on the twisting of Scriptures to fit ones preconceived ideas of what the next age will be like.  It's all Blowing in the Wind.  Human speculation.

God's Words are Spirit, and They are Life, and must be spiritually discerned.

[lilitalienboi16]

Well Kat and Alex, I actually agree with both of your last posts.

One point though, Alex--The fact that I do understand that Hebrews 9:27 is speaking of spiritual death was my point in arguing it the way I did.  Kat used it to prove there would be no physical death in the Kingdom Age, but we can't have it both ways, can we? If it is speaking of the spiritual,then it does not remove the possibility of the physical.  See?

Nevertheless, I fully accept the sense of your last post, Kat.  It seems true to me. The details, I guess, we really can't know, as obviously things will be SO radically different that anything we imagine will probably be wrong.  Like my sticking point of the 'sexlessness' of people resurrected with mortal, carnal bodies...I don't get that. But it does seem it must be so if, in fact, there will be no more creation of humans then.  How this will work, I have no idea.  Maybe John from Kentucky has some thoughts?   

I especially like what you said below..

The next age is for a different purpose... judgment on those who have already lived once, the exception is the elect who have already been judged. When this age ends and Christ returns, the pattern that was set for this age will be over... things will be different. There will be those that live through that period, from this age into the next, and I think they will be in a special situation, they are then to partake of the new pattern of the new age. I do not think there will be physical death in the next age... what purpose would that serve? Death is a keeping place for everyone just until they are resurrected. The next age is that judgment - the second death - dying to self. Now after the first resurrection, I can see how the rest could be raised in stages, maybe, Paul did mention "each one in his own order," (1 Cor 15:23).

That I can wrap my mind around.  I guess my fixation on the HOW of it is something I should just let go...for now.

Hi Neo,

I see it completely differently. If physical death is not required to enter judgment, and the next age is about judgement, then when humanity is raised, there is no reason for them to ever have to physically die again because that was never the requirement in the first place. Physical death will serve no purpose.

To John:

Good admonishment and I think we would all do well to remember some of these basic scriptural truths when trying to make a point. We need witnesses! Two or three!

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -----------------------------

[A] "...that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).

"...In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).

[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES..." (Rev. 11:3).

This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.
v

But we learned that no witness can stand alone. We must have at least TWO WITNESSES to establish the truth of any doctrine.
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Yes I absolutely agree with this and believe it should be applied in our studies to find truth of doctrine. But I really do not believe we are discussing doctrine here, this is more of a logical consideration of what the 'physical' might be like in the next age.

I see it completely differently. If physical death is not required to enter judgment, and the next age is about judgement, then when humanity is raised, there is no reason for them to ever have to physically die again because that was never the requirement in the first place. Physical death will serve no purpose.

Alex, I'm not sure I understand what your saying here.... the point of physical death is as Ray stated many time "When people die, they are dead.  This is not a terrible thing. God likens death to sleep in many many Scriptures. The only hope of the dead is a resurrection from the dead."  When the actual resurrection has happen, at the end of this age, what is the point of physical death after that?

When Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that was actually him living this life, as we all do... we are given a brief life - eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of a relatively short life (Gen 6:3 - says 120 yrs), we live, we sin, because we're carnal, then we die, God told Adam it would be that way. This has been the cycle of life that has happened generation after generation throughout the centuries. But when Christ returns He ends this vicious cycle and cast death into the lake of fire. Here is wher Ray spoke on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -------------------------

This is precisely what God told Adam would happen if he ate the forbidden fruit:

"Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying" (Gen. 2:17, Concordant Literal Old Testament).

Here is what our dictionaries tell us: "death, n. 1. the act of dying; the termination of life. 2. The state of being dead. 3. The cause of dying" (American Heritage College Dictionary). This is really important to remember. The word death denotes an ACT, STATE, & CAUSE. It will be nothing but confusion if we do not keep all three of these in mind when dealing with the abolition of "death."

All three of these definitions are true in actual fact. One is no more true than the others. So when God tells us that "the last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), it must include every and all aspects of what death really is. Death will no longer be the cause of anyone going through death in the act of dying, neither will there be any more dead people in the final state of death. But will Christians accept the abolition (or destruction) of the ACT of death, the CAUSE of death, and the STATE of death, as representing what Jesus Christ will, literally and spiritually "destroy?" No, of course not. How could they then continue hanging on to their hatred towards others with their torture in hell for all eternity for those they don't love, doctrine?

Death itself will be destroyed, or as the Concordant Version renders it: "the last enemy being abolished: death." (It is more likely to abolish something that is inanimate rather than to destroy it as the King James translates it).

So we have the act, the state, and the cause, all being the definition of "death." Hence all three must be abolished or there will yet remain some form of death which would then continue to be an eternal "enemy" in God's creation.

The lake of fire/second death is how God deals with the sins of humanity. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity (I John 2:2). But what it seems the whole Christian world is failing to see, understand, and experience, is GETTING THE SIN OUT OF THE SINNER. How spiritually blind can we be. After Jesus has died for the sins of the world, the world continues to sin. Surely we can see from the Scriptures that God wants to get the sin out of His Elect.

If Jesus died to save sinners, is He going to save only some sinners? His chosen Elect only? By saving a few chosen elect sinners, does that make Jesus Christ, "The Saviour OF THE WORLD" (I John 4:14)? God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ commissioned Jesus "TO BE the Saviour of the world." Will Jesus be justified by His Father if He saves only a FEW?

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened which is the books of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:12).

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

When the "dead... stand," we are being presented with a resurrection from the dead. For this is exactly what resurrection means (anastasis in Greek means, "to stand up again"--See Strong's #386 translated 'resurrection'). It is in resurrection that "the dead... stand" before God. And yes, since we know Revelation is a book of spiritual symbols, we would be correct in stating that it is "the SPIRITUALLY dead" who are standing before God.
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So when people are raised up from the grave, death has served it's purpose in holding those individuals until resurrection. One thing that I have not been able to find in a second witness to the Scripture of "it is appointed for men to die once," (Heb 9:27). Of course it is a truth, but that shows we have to be careful when we place rules over the Word of truth.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Yes Kat,

Read my discussion back and forth with Neo again.

You essentially echoed exactly what I was telling Neo.

I quote you:

"When the actual resurrection has happen, at the end of this age, what is the point of physical death after that?"

That is exactly what i'm trying to get across to him. Since judgement comes after we die to self, and not physically die (because judgement has began at the house of God and none of us have physically died yet), dying LITERALLY / PHYSICALLY a second time in the next age after the resurrection serves no purpose. The next age is all about judgement.

[lurquer]

Alex:
I also don't understand what you are saying..you must not have understood me. I did not say that those who were raised from the dead would die again (however this possibility was not scripturally negated, IMO), but that there would still be physical death (for a time) during the kingdom.  I was speculating on those who would enter alive into the kingdom (age)--that they may yet die physically (and provided scriptures which gave me that idea), and also that IF there was still procreation going on, these would/could also be subject to death.

I think Kat has given me enough to think about to believe her understanding of it (obviously that is a much happier scenario and I hope it is true!).  But I won't be dogmatic about it, or the possibility of procreation, until I can be pursued by scripture in...yes, two or three witnesses. 

Kat:
Thank you for your continued thoughts and posts from Ray.  They are very helpful. And do let me know when you find that second witness to Hebrews 9:27!! (I would very much like to see it your way, and be sure of it..

John:
I understand your post was intended as humor.  That I didn't "get it" was not because I'm "religious people"... I can assure you, I'm not. If God would choose me as one of His Elect, I've no doubt I'd be one of the LEAST in the kingdom.  I just found it to be off-humor.  Not funny really.  Maybe you could try a different version of the joke and I'll try and get it next time. 

[lilitalienboi16]

Neo I understand. Let me be plain. I don't think there is any two or three witnesses that establish death will exist in the next age, at least not physical literal death. The next age is for judgement and that comes after death. That is the pattern we see in scripture. Physical literal death would serve no purpose in the next age. There is a resurrection of the dead coming and then the books are opened with the dead standing. There is no indication that there is a ressurection, judgment, more death and sleep, then another ressurection later etc.. that's just not the pattern we see in scripture.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Oh okay Alex, I understand now. I'm going to put Ray's explanation about how the elect will experience 'death' and then enter judgment in this life... trying to provide excerpts from Ray as much as I can on these things, for anybody that might need it.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ------------------------

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.
v

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?

But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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Here is an interesting Scripture Michael.

Rev 20:14  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

Isa 25:7  And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.
v. 8  He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

1Cor 15:26  The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lurquer]

Thank you, Kat.

Beautiful arrangement of scripture...