Spiritual death

[Colin]

Dear All

While reading through the part 4 of the LOF series, I unexpectedly came to realise that I had not fully grasped what was staring me in the face.   Isn't this so true of much that we have read, including the scriptures, where our eyes simply have not "seen" what has been hidden in full view?   

It reminds me of       
2Cor 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
:16  Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Ray wrote (towards the end of part 4  LOF) 
This man [the prodigal son] SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED!   Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn't this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is,    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).

There had been a degree of uncertainty for me in understanding this verse, because I was still affected by the notion taught by former teachers in WWCG, and which is also an essential part of many professing Christian churches.....that men are all going to physically die because, according to them, that "sentence" had been passed on ever since Adam's "mistake".
Many times we have heard it pronounced by the worldly churches that Adam had been "created perfect" and remained so UNTIL.......  There have even been speculations that Adam and Eve might have lived endlessly (physically?) except for the dreadful decision they made.    Our thanks go to God for revealing to Ray, who went on to provide us with the truth.    Yet it can still remain "clouded" until God opens our eyes according to His timetable. 

I continued reading what Ray had written and came to:- 

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL!   Parables are NOT literal, that's why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon?  Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?"    I speak as fool.    Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).    SPIRITUAL DEATH!   

When I saw that, it brought about a better understanding for me of Hebrews 9:27.  I was then able to comprehend that it means   "it is appointed, or deliberately intended by God that ALL men are, at some stage, to die spiritually, followed by a time of JUDGMENT".    God knew Adam and Eve would sin....not only knew, but intended that Adam, Eve and all of mankind are, at some stage, to experience spiritual death. 
Not just come to an end of physical life.

Some will experience a spiritual death at an earlier time than others.    Most will after their resurrection....our turn can be now.

Ray's conclusion became much clearer for me, once I "saw" the real meaning of what Paul wrote in Romans 6:23.....which is a conclusion of several preceding verses.      Studying those preceding verses adds further weight to the spiritual nature of the death being referred to.   

And to think I read part 4 of LOF many years ago and did not fully comprehend what was contained therein.    The parable of the prodigal son has a deeper significance than I had seen.   The prodigal son had been "spiritually dead".....not just physically hungry and sorry for himself.       Colin

[rick]

Hi Colin,


I know Ray taught, first the physical then the spiritual, I would think the physical would mean being spiritually death, or we all start off spiritually dead .

I know we are physical being having a spiritual experience if God has called us, only those who endure to the end which would mean to me, until Christ returns or we physically die, would be in the first resurrection.

No one to my understanding is actually saved in this age nor is anyone born again in this aged, this is reserved for the next age for Gods elect only. If we start off spiritually dead then it would stand to reason the first resurrection is going from spiritually dead to spiritually alive.

But again it stands to reason if we start off spiritually dead were we spiritually alive before we  spiritually died  ?

Or are we born spiritually dead and God quickens our spirit and we become spiritually alive for the first time ?

But Ray did teach us that our spirit is actually dumb, it has no memory, no thought, it's the power that gives us life. So when we say we are spiritually alive what is it we are referring to ?

God knows the end from the beginning, God also chose the elect from the beginning and those who He has chosen will He cast away ? That would be to contradict He knows the end from the beginning would it not ? Also it would of been a mistake on Gods part if He chose someone to be an elect and they appear not in the first resurrection.

Can someone loose their salvation ? If so, did not God see that in advance ? And if God saw that in advance why would He have chosen that one to be an elect ? Of course, Jesus did say that those who the Father has given Him, no one can snatch them from the Fathers hand not even the one who the Father has given Him because our choice is not free from causality.

If being spiritually alive is another way of saying I have a relationship with Christ then I can comprehend its meaning but if it means something different than that then I have not a clue. 

God bless.

[Gina]

Spiritually dead "in trespasses and sins.".  Death passed to all men because all have sinned . Sin entered the world and death by Sin.  Sin was in the world before death so we have to actually sin or break fellowship with God before we die spirituallly.  Babies are not spiritually dead becUse they haven't ever sinned against God  so no we do not start off spiritually dead.we start off with weak flesh and carnally minded which leads to death because we are too weak to resist temptation not having the mind of Christ.  Once I was Alive apart from the law. But when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.  Romans 7: 9. . So from that it is plain to see that we are not or do not start off spiritually dead. I hope that helped

[Kat]

I continued reading what Ray had written and came to:- 

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL!   Parables are NOT literal, that's why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon?  Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?"    I speak as fool.    Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23).    SPIRITUAL DEATH!   

When I saw that, it brought about a better understanding for me of Hebrews 9:27.  I was then able to comprehend that it means   "it is appointed, or deliberately intended by God that ALL men are, at some stage, to die spiritually, followed by a time of JUDGMENT".    God knew Adam and Eve would sin....not only knew, but intended that Adam, Eve and all of mankind are, at some stage, to experience spiritual death. 
Not just come to an end of physical life.

Some will experience a spiritual death at an earlier time than others.    Most will after their resurrection....our turn can be now.

Ray's conclusion became much clearer for me, once I "saw" the real meaning of what Paul wrote in Romans 6:23.....which is a conclusion of several preceding verses.      Studying those preceding verses adds further weight to the spiritual nature of the death being referred to.   

And to think I read part 4 of LOF many years ago and did not fully comprehend what was contained therein.    The parable of the prodigal son has a deeper significance than I had seen.   The prodigal son had been "spiritually dead".....not just physically hungry and sorry for himself.

Hi Colin,

Yes the Scripture is such a mystery (intended) and does not reveal many things unless you find the answer through other witnesses of the same truth. There is much talk about "death" in the Scripture, but we have to discern the kind of death it is speaking of, physical or spiritual. Spiritual dead is a state of being in this physical life, as Ray was saying about the prodigal son, he was not physically dead, but he was dead spiritually with a carnal/beastly/sinful nature. It is sin that brings this spiritual death to us all, "For the wages of sin is death..." (Rom 6:23).

Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

Jas 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

This spiritual death is the state of being of all humanity (until the Holy Spirit is indwelling), and it's what a person's nature is, a carnal sinner. Paul explains it started with the first man and it continues in every person that ever lives. Here is a few places where Ray talks about this.


http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html ----------------------


IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART

ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.

We read in Jer. 17:9:

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

We know from Scripture that God "...creates EVIL..." (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man's heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let's read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."

God did not create man's heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."

The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.


http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm ----------------------
[Ray Replies]

Thank you for your email and comments. And let me parrot your sentiments by saying: "I pray this will not upset YOU" what I have to say in response to your email. While I can certainly appreciate some of the statement you make, nonetheless, the premise of your email is in error.

You state: "What they had [Adam and Eve], I can only dream of having. They knew what good is without evil, good in it's purest form!"

Well, if what you want is what Adam and Eve had BEFORE they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then I have news for you:  You can stop dreaming.  You REALLY DO ALREADY HAVE what they had!!  That's right! Your ALREADY possess what they HAD! I have it too! But I am not as thrilled over this possession as much as you seem to think you would be if only you had it. You do have it, I have it, Hitler had it, Saddam STILL has it, in his jail cell in Iraq. ALL MANKIND HAS IT. It's called "THE CARNAL MIND," and it's not a pretty thing either: "For to be CARNALLY MINDED is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and PEACE.

Adam and Eve did not eat of the forbidden tree and disobey God because they were "spiritually minded" or because, "they knew what good is without knowing evil, good in it's purest form" as you suggest. THEY WERE TOTALLY CARNAL. The were 'NAKED'--This was not just a physical fact, it was a SPIRITUAL REALITY. They were spiritually NAKED just as everyone else who thinks they have sufficient spirituality to live righteously by their own carnal mind:

"Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods [they owned all in the garden; it was ALL FOR THEM] and have need of NOTHING [how could they have need of anything if they already possessed, "good in it's PUREST FORM' as you suggest? But there's was a problem with Adam and Eve just as there is with ALL OF US. We DO NOT possess proper knowledge {without the tree of the knowledge of good and evil}, and therefore we like Laodicea...] ... and KNOW NOT  that you are WRETCHED, and MISERABLE, and POOR, and BLIND, and [SPIRITUALLY] NAKED" (Rev. 3:17)!!!

If they already knew good (inside of their very spirit and innermost being), good in it's PUREST FORM, then how could ANYTHING, influence, persuade, cause, or MAKE them manifest the root causes of EVERY SIN ON EARTH?  Notice it carefully:

"And when the woman [1] SAW THAT THE TREE WAS GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh], and that it was [2] PLEASANT TO THE EYES [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be [3] DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life], she TOOK [stole, disobeyed, lusted after the flesh, put an idol before God, worshiped her own presumed but false goodness, helped cause her husband to sin, hid themselves, LIED to God about it, tried to pass the buck and blame others for their sin, etc., etc., etc., and a dozen other sins] of the fruit thereof, and did eat..." (Gen. 3:6).

And so, were Adam and Eve REALLY "good without knowing evil?"  Did they really have "good in it's PUREST FORM?" Or did Eve having nothing but a spiritually naked and carnal mind that did NOT possess the love of God in any way, shape or form?  Let the Scriptures answer. Notice what Eve did:

Lusted with her FLESH, wanting to EAT the forbidden fruit.
Lusted with here EYES, because it seemed so pleasant to her carnal mind.
Was filled with PRIDE, desiring worldly WISDOM.
Now let's compare Eve's sin with what John tells us are the three root CAUSES OF ALL SIN:

"Love not the world, neither the things are are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT IN HIM.  For [here's the reason why] ALL that is in the world, [1] the LUST OF THE FLESH, and [2] the LUST OF THE EYES, and [3] the PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (I John 2:15-16).

There we have the exact three sins of Eve!  And I assure you on the authority of Jesus Christ and the Word of God that these are NOT, 'good in it's purest form.' We must all be CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST and then be CLOTHED WITH HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, before we will have even a hint of "good in it's purest form."

There is no knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil! That is WHY God put both good AND evil IN THE SAME TREE; IN THE SAME FRUIT.!!


http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -------------------------

"For the creature was made subject to vanity [King James Margin: "futility"], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected [Gk: 'subjects'—aorist tense—subjecting is still going on] the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

In Dante's inferno, "all hope is gone...," but in God's realm He subjects the entire creation "...in HOPE,"

God willfully, wantingly, knowingly, purposely, and wisely, created mankind "subject to vanity," subject to failure, but beyond the failure, God also subjects the same in "hope." Once again, contrary to all orthodox doctrine, there is hope for all of God's carnal-minded, God-hating people on planet Earth. God Himself says so, in the same breath: "because the creature itself [the same creation that God subjects to vanity, futility, failure, and carnal-minded hatred against God] also shall be [ah, did you catch that? 'shall be'], delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21). Do you believe the Scriptures? Really—what about this one?

And so God, "made the creature subject to vanity"—failure, but later in mankind's development, the creature "shall be"— [future tense]... shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption." Ah yes, God created them in a condition of "bondage" and "corruption," and therefore not "immortal" as is taught, but rather in "bondage of corruption." But thanks to God, in the resurrection of the dead, '...this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality' (I Cor. 15:54).

Yes, of course, first comes the PHYSICAL (death), and then the SPIRITUAL (life). There it is—the hope of all humanity. Corruption and mortality (the physical first) must put on incorruption and immortality [the afterward spiritual).


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html ------

Every person (and animal) has a "spirit."  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL. 

God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.

God be with you,

Ray

[Gina]

Yes, they were spiritually naked, but they didn't die spiritually until they lusted and partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and sinned.  That's the way I read it.  God said, in the day that you eat, to die shall you be dying.  So, they were created spiritually weak and then because of their weakness to lust and sin, they died spiritually.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Romans __:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Psalms 139:8 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol [realm of the dead], behold, You are there. 9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea 10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.  11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," 12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.  13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance [i.e. unformed body]; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

As the new posted video of Ray's says - "No where to escape." 

[Jeff]

Is this an accurate understanding?

1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.

2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)

3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven.  This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.

4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

If this is true then we are not spiritually alive.  No one is.  Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.

[John from Kentucky]

Is this an accurate understanding?

1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.

2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)

3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven.  This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.

4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

If this is true then we are not spiritually alive.  No one is.  Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.

I would say not accurate.

The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.

We are then in constant communication with God.  God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.

This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things.  Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.

We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.

However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.

[Kat]

Hi Jeff,

If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Col 2:11  In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
v. 12  buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
v. 13  And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

1John 5:11  and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this--the life--is in His Son;
v. 12  he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God--the life he hath not. (Young's)

Now this 'life' that comes with the Holy Spirit indwelling is just a earnest that we have in this life, a believer will not be perfected while still in the flesh, not until resurrection. Here are a few places Ray spoke on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,96.0.html ----

Dear Billy:

Unfortunately, the Greek word translated "born" is also the same Greek word translated "begotten."  Therefore it is sometimes difficult to know whether a verse means "begotten" or "born."  The truth is that all of God's promises to and for us in this life are in "earnest or down payment" of what is to follow. We have God's spirit in earnest only;  we have eonian life in earnest only;  we have understanding and perception in earnest only.  In the resurrection we will be, "like the wind,"  "LIKE HIM" (I John 3:2). 


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html -----

Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie

Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again".  All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection.  We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.


http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------

But Jesus is now raised from the dead and is the Live Tree, the Tree of LIFE. We get a "taste" of this life when God gives us of His Holy Spirit. But we receive only the "earnest" or down payment in this life:

"...you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL [at a later date] the redemption of the purchased possession..." (Eph. 1:13b-14).

At the resurrection we will be changed:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: for we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2-3).


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html ---

Dear Bobby:
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.

God be with you,
Ray

[rick]

If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Hi Kat,

   
Rom 8:11 to me is set for a future date, what my meaning is here is that I have a mortal body, my body has life already, I'm a living soul as we speak.

The Fathers spirit in Christ raised Christ from the grave three days after His crucifixion and this same spirit that was in Christ will raise our mortal bodies too at the resurrection.

So I'm confused to your statement ( gives spiritual life to a believer ) what is your understanding or meaning about ( spiritual life to a believer ) ?

Is your meaning the same as my understanding ? At the resurrection ?

[Jeff]

Is this an accurate understanding?

1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.

2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)

3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven.  This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.

4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

If this is true then we are not spiritually alive.  No one is.  Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.

I would say not accurate.

The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.

We are then in constant communication with God.  God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.

This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things.  Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.

We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.

However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.

And yet we sin.  We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive?  Doesn't it mean "free from sin"?  I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or.  We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.

A down payment is something promised in the future.

[Jeff]

If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Hi Kat,

   
Rom 8:11 to me is set for a future date, what my meaning is here is that I have a mortal body, my body has life already, I'm a living soul as we speak.

The Fathers spirit in Christ raised Christ from the grave three days after His crucifixion and this same spirit that was in Christ will raise our mortal bodies too at the resurrection.

So I'm confused to your statement ( gives spiritual life to a believer ) what is your understanding or meaning about ( spiritual life to a believer ) ?

Is your meaning the same as my understanding ? At the resurrection ?

I agree Rick.  I believe this speaks to the future.  Colossians 2:9 uses the Greek word (sōmatikōs) which means "spiritual body"

Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (sōmatikōs)

[rick]

Is this an accurate understanding?

1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.

2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)

3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven.  This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.

4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

If this is true then we are not spiritually alive.  No one is.  Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.

I would say not accurate.

The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.

We are then in constant communication with God.  God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.

This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things.  Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.

We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.

However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.

And yet we sin.  We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive?  Doesn't it mean "free from sin"?  I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or.  We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.

A down payment is something promised in the future.

Hi Jeff,

God's elect do sin, just not on the level they once had or at least should not. Remember this scripture, as a man thinks so he is.

What if a man thinks he's more God centered than self centered ? How would that effect the attitude of his mind ?

John the Baptist said He must increase I must decrease, to me , that means I must become more God centered and the more I become God centered the less I become self centered. The less I become self centered the more my life is hid with Christ. Takes a life time Jeff.

I'm not proud of my sins but they do keep me humble, Ray said that he did not sin as much but he still did sin just not as much as he once did.

                           
We are alive and we do sin, and we will pay for our sins as much as I can tell, Jesus paid for all the sins of the world correct, so if Jesus died for my sins why must I grow old and die ?

For the wages of sin is death and I sinned and I shall die, so what does Christ sacrifice mean to me ? Salvation, spiritual life after the resurrection, right now the only life I have is physical life but also a relationship with Christ in my physical life.

If spirits have spiritual lives what do human beings have?

God bless.

[Jeff]

...we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14)

Kat,

I think this indicates that what we have now is "earnest" which means "a portion of something, given or done in advance, as a pledge of the remainder."

What we have is a promise of God's Spirit - "proof of more to come" that can only mean "as yet unfulfilled"

An inheritance comes at the completion. It's given as a trust.  We're "sealed" in that promise [not now; not yet; but later]"

[Jeff]

God's elect do sin, just not on the level they once had or at least should not. Remember this scripture, as a man thinks so he is.

I'm not proud of my sins but they do keep me humble, Ray said that he did not sin as much but he still did sin just not as much as he once did.

We are alive and we do sin, and we will pay for our sins as much as I can tell, Jesus paid for all the sins of the world correct, so if Jesus died for my sins why must I grow old and die ?

For the wages of sin is death and I sinned

Which is why I don't think we can experience Spiritual life "completeness" until Christ returns.

James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Sin is sin.  We aren't complete. We have a promise.  I just don't understand how carnal man can have the fullness of God in him.

[Kat]

Hi Rick and Jeff,

We have only received an earnest of the Holy Spirit while still in the flesh, but we are then His temple and are sealed with the promise.

2Cor 1:21  Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
v. 22  who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (also Eph 1:13)

1Cor 6:19  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
v. 20  for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

The Spirit indwelling gives us the earnest of that eonian life now, so that we are able to overcome, to obey and bare fruit of the Spirit. With the Spirit of Christ indwelling we are no longer in bondage to the physical... Jesus Christ gives us life, spiritual knowledge beyond the physical. The Spirit indwelling creates a hunger/thirst for spiritual food.

Mat 4:4  But He answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

John 6:54  Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal (eonian) life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

So believers are "made alive" now, in this life... not as spirit beings, but having the mind of Christ (1Cor2:16),

John 6:63  It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

John 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28  And I give them eternal (eonian) life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
v. 15  For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
v. 16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17  and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

So we can be spiritually alive and yet be carnal.

[Kat]

Hi Jeff,

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
v. 3  For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
v. 4  that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
v. 5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Jeff,

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
v. 3  For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
v. 4  that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
v. 5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Amen!

[Jeff]

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

It became obvious to me in Romans 8:11.  God dwelling in us - he will quicken (make alive) our mortal bodies by His Spirit.

[dave]

So we can be spiritually alive and yet be carnal.

How else can we combat our carnality?